========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:59:24 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Naomi Kelly Subject: Acid use in teaching labs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We have biology labs that use concentrated nitric acid to show reaction with egg yolks. They are presently conducting this experiment without the use of hoods. The students do this experiment themselves using about 2-3 ml of nitric/experiment. This experiment is performed about 270 times over the course of a week. I have outlined the PPE requirements. But they do not have a hoods in these labs. Thoughts on ventilation requirements would be appreciated. Naomi Kelly Environmental Health and Safety Officer Clemson University 261 P&AS Building Clemson, SC 29634-5740 (864)656-7554 Fax (864)656-7630 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:15:27 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jim Jenkins Subject: Re: Re(2): Explosion at Bakersfield High School Comments: To: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The National Science Teachers' Association and the ACS have recommended guidelines for lab sizes based on occupancy. They recommend a MAX of 24 students in a lab class. Also, they have recommendations concerning square foot area per student in lab and combination lab/classroom settings. Although these guidelines are directed at high school and middle school science labs, I'm sure that they could be utilized for university labs with some mimor modifications. I'm surprised that California, with all of its other strict regulations, doesn't appear to address this issue. I will not permit more than 24 students in any of my chemistry classes. In fact, this school year, I had to have our counselor make schedule adjustments on two students to get one of my classes down to 24. I just said that we would not do any labs until that happened and he did what I asked. Jim Jenkins Chairman, Science Department John F. Hodge High School St. James, MO 65559 jjenkins@stjames.k12.mo.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 06:48:21 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Ray Campbell Subject: Re: Re(2): Explosion at Bakersfield High School In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Actually, seeing that this happened in California, I am surprised that the class was less than forty students. The schools are very overcrowded. Have you read the rankings for the schools nationwide? We rank about 45th, I believe. At 08:15 AM 9/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >The National Science Teachers' Association and the ACS have recommended >guidelines for lab sizes based on occupancy. They recommend a MAX of 24 >students in a lab class. Also, they have recommendations concerning square >foot area per student in lab and combination lab/classroom settings. >Although these guidelines are directed at high school and middle school >science labs, I'm sure that they could be utilized for university labs with >some mimor modifications. I'm surprised that California, with all of its >other strict regulations, doesn't appear to address this issue. > >I will not permit more than 24 students in any of my chemistry classes. In >fact, this school year, I had to have our counselor make schedule >adjustments on two students to get one of my classes down to 24. I just >said that we would not do any labs until that happened and he did what I asked. > >Jim Jenkins >Chairman, Science Department >John F. Hodge High School >St. James, MO 65559 >jjenkins@stjames.k12.mo.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 07:57:27 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: Acid use in teaching labs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Naomi - Nitric acid (and nitric oxide that is typically a product) should never be allowed to escape appropriate exhaust ventilation. The 270 times 2-3 mL per week is no small amount, as you have recognized. Although I don't know the details of the experiment, is it possible to substitute nitric with of a non-volatile acid, such as sulfuric? Perhaps a non-volatile base, such as aqueous NaOH, might also get the point of the demonstration across without having to add any additional engineering controls. Ben Greene AlliedSignal ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:08:35 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Subject: Re(2): Re(3): Explosion at Bakersfield High School Comments: To: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit article below is from bakersfield.com 9-1-99, 8:00 am You will find a photo of the classroom at the website. This morning's printed paper also had a photo of a student at the hospital waiting for stitches, an explanation of the experiment with diagrams, and a diagram of the classroom showing location of desks, students, demo table, etc. Teresa R. Robertson CSUB Explosion rocks science class Filed: August 31, 1999 By AMANDA GAUTHIER and KERRY CAVANAUGH Californian staff writers e-mail: agauthier@bakersfield.com e-mail: kcavanaugh@bakersfield.com Tuesday was just the second day of class at East Bakersfield High when teacher John McCormick began his science experiment, which had always been exciting but safe. Instead, a 5-gallon glass water cooler bottle shattered, sending shards of glass flying across the room and 22 students to local emergency rooms. No one suffered major injuries in the 8:25 a.m. explosion but it shook up students, parents and school officials on campus. The Bakersfield Police, Kern County Fire and Kern County Sheriff's departments all responded within minutes. Investigators from the Kern High School District, the Sheriff's Department Bomb Squad and District Attorney's Office were initially on scene in case there had been some criminal element to the accident. Officials quickly determined that the explosion was simply an unfortunate accident. Now the standard accident investigation is being handled by the Kern County Fire Department and the Kern High School District. "This was an approved demonstration experiment," East High principal John Gibson said. "What went wrong nobody can tell at this point." Student Joseph Krauter was sitting at the back of the classroom. The force of the explosion blew his hair back and pushed him up against the back wall. "And people ask me why I don't like chemistry," Krauter said later that morning as he waited for a ride back to school from San Joaquin Community Hospital. Krauter, 16, was retaking the chemistry course. He knew how the experiment was supposed to work. "The bottle was not supposed to burst at all," he said. "It's just a school experiment gone bad. Could be a Fox special," said junior Jesse Martinez, 16. Igniting methanol is a common lab demonstration, said Roy LaFever, a professor of chemistry at Cal State Bakersfield. "It's used in a variety of experiments because it burns clean and, under normal circumstances, is quite controllable," LaFever said. Many high schools use methanol in their labs, said Ralph Huey, director of environmental services for the Bakersfield Fire Department. The problem with methanol, a volatile liquid, is that it gives off vapors at a low temperature, around 50 degrees, he said. It has a "wide flammability range" which means that there doesn't have to be a thick concentration of vapors for a fire to ignite. The experiment could have gone wrong because there was too much vapor in the glass bottle, which could cause a more violent reaction than expected, Huey said. The Tuesday morning lesson for 33 students at East High was supposed to be about observation and inference, a demonstration the 10-year veteran teacher had performed for years. A few milliliters of methanol, also known as wood alcohol, sat in the bottom of the glass bottle. McCormick turned the lights off, lit a match and lifted the lid off the bottle. The students heard a crack before a flame shot out of the top and the bottle exploded — shooting bits of glass around the room. Students said McCormick rushed out of the room when he saw blood coming from his face, and the students followed, heading to the nurse's office in the basement. Glass flew in every direction, breaking a plastic ceiling light cover, hitting the back wall cabinets and piercing the vinyl drapes. Blood spots spread across the floor and desks. Junior Neil Kitchen, 16, was sitting in the front of the classroom near the door during the demonstration. After the explosion, he felt a piece of glass hit the side of his face. He touched his face, saw blood and immediately ran to the nurse's office. The accident was just a freak occurrence, Kitchen said from an emergency room bed at Kern Medical Center. He and his mother, Barbara Kitchen , were waiting for him to get the gash in his cheek stitched up. "(McCormick) is a good teacher. This experiment is done every year," Neil Kitchen said. Krauter and Martinez sat with Elizabeth Guzman, also a junior, in the emergency waiting room. Other students had already been released. The three had minor cuts from shattered glass. Martinez's stomach also was bothering him. Humor helped distract from the visions of a classroom strewn with glass and blood, and the knowledge that it could have been much worse. "People may be joking about it to let it all out, but it was really scary in there," Guzman said. "I'm kind of scared to do chemistry now." Mostly they were worried about their teacher, and wondering how the explosion had happened. "He (McCormick) was shook up. That thing blew up right in his face," Krauter added. "I just hope he can still teach." Guzman and Martinez echoed the sentiment. "I hope he doesn't quit or anything." Martinez said. McCormick went home after he was treated and released from Kern Medical Center for minor cuts. He was in shock from the experiment and concerned about his students, Gibson said. "It's kind of a traumatic experience for a teacher to go through," he said. Mary Martinez, 39, expressed concern for McCormick when she came to pick up her son, Erik Martinez, from San Joaquin Hospital. Erik, 16, was given a tetanus shot because of a cut on his arm, and said his ear hurt. While Erik wasn't seriously injured, Mary Martinez was concerned about the safety of the science lab experiments. She said she was upset that McCormick was wearing protective goggles, gloves and earplugs while the students were not. "If he (Erik) had lost his eyesight over this ..." she said, and stopped. "An accident isn't really an accident. It's someone else's mistake." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:43:06 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Debbie Decker Subject: Re(2): Re(2): Explosion at Bakersfield High School In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:04 PM 8/31/99 -0700, you wrote: >>From bakersfield.com >5 pm, 8-31-99 > > > Lab explosion at East High > School sends 23 to hospital Teresa: Thanks for posting this information. Very curious to know what went wrong. I'm glad your kids weren't at this school but it's still a scary thing so close to home. Regards, Deb. Debbie M. Decker, Health and Safety Specialist Environmental Health and Safety University of California, Davis 1 Shields Ave. Davis, CA 95616 (530)754-7964 (530)752-1493 dmdecker@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:23:59 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Re: Re(3): Explosion at Bakersfield High School Comments: cc: wmichaelchuck@erols.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="openmail-part-0757a8eb-00000001" --openmail-part-0757a8eb-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="Re:" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Re:" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI NACHO's, I've been following the postings on the Bakersfield explosion and been forwarding everything to my close friend who is a seasoned high school chemistry in South Jersey. Here's his return e-mail to me. I'm puzzled that there are actually water cooler bottles made of glass. Is this a misconception by the media? Could the bottle actually be a media preparation bottle. I have seen these and used these before. One thing my friend also forgot to mention was that students are never allowed in his class without safety goggles. If they're caught not wearing them, they must sing "the goggles song" ( I'll save that for another time )in front of the whole class. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 --openmail-part-0757a8eb-00000001 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:08:28 -0400 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Subject: Re: Re(3): Explosion at Bakersfield High School MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wmichaelchuck/internet////////RFC-822/wmichaelchuck#a#erols#f#com@hpmail1 From: wmichaelchuck@erols.com TO: Nick.Pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu Content-Type: multipart/Mixed; boundary="openmail-part-0757a8eb-00000002" --openmail-part-0757a8eb-00000002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Re:" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick Pinizzotto wrote: > > Subject: Re(3): Explosion at Bakersfield High School > From: Teresa_Robertson@FIRSTCLASS1.CSUBAK.EDU > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > > 12:30 pm news broadcast... > > The explosion was accidental and occurred in a chemistry class. The > experiment involved methanol vapor. The Fire Battalion Chief said 2 ml of > methanol was placed in a "Sparkletts-water-bottle-sized container". > > Students received minor cuts to arms, legs, and faces. > > Teresa Robertson > CSUB > I'm wondering...what is a minor cut, and what size the container was... Nick, This is one of my favorite demos- I have been doing it safely for i2 years ;only ,I use a plastic five gallon water bottle and always use a safety shield. Wayne --openmail-part-0757a8eb-00000002-- --openmail-part-0757a8eb-00000001-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:33:52 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Harry Elston Subject: Goggles Song In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >One thing my friend also forgot to mention was that students are never allowed >in his class without safety goggles. If they're caught not wearing them, they >must sing "the goggles song" ( I'll save that for another time )in front of >the whole class. > > Nick Pinizzotto Nick...we MUST have the goggles song! Harry Elston Harry J. Elston, Ph.D. Editor, Chemical Health and Safety and Chemical Hygiene Officer Illinois Department of Nuclear Safety Opinions are my own, not my employer's, blah, blah, blah "As a matter of fact, I do know 10 things that are carved in stone." -God ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:39:42 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Goggles Song Comments: To: helston@FGI.NET In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990901113317.00925220@mail.fgi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry, I'll work on it. Also, I WILL return your phone call regarding LS&EM. Sorry for the delay. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:44:14 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: Re(3): Explosion at Bakersfield High School MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Nick - I (or maybe the Sparkletts bottle that blew) must be old; Sparketts bottles used to be made of glass, and were rather stout. There didn't appear to be much of it left to do a failure analysis. Out of curiousity, when Wayne uses a safety shield, on which side of the bottle is it placed (toward the instructor or toward the class)? I witnessed a similar (UEL, LEL) demonstration at the OSHA Training Institute a couple years ago, except a 5 gallon plastic water bottle was used. The demonstration was performed in an open classroom that positively reeked of burned plastics/plasticizers after the burn. Ironically, it was an industrial hygiene class in which air contaminants and respiratory protection were also on the agenda. Ben Greene AlliedSignal ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:54:11 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Re: Re(3): Explosion at Bakersfield High School Comments: To: bgreene@SMTP3.WSTF.NASA.GOV In-Reply-To: <45C82258A1B2D111892500805FCC9B0D01D7A610@nt05.wstf.nasa.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben, I believe all of Wayne's demo's employ the shield between the students and the experiment. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:58:17 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Mudd, Lisa E'town Ind Schools" Subject: Re: Goggles Song Is this the same goggles song: Goggles, you'll love your goggles. They will keep your eyes from (STOMP) burning out. So wear your goggles, upon your eeyyeeballs. If you don't, you must stay out! Sung to the tune of the song we all learned as kids -- "Comet, it makes you ...". > ---------- > From: Harry Elston[SMTP:helston@FGI.NET] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:33 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Goggles Song > > >One thing my friend also forgot to mention was that students are never > allowed > >in his class without safety goggles. If they're caught not wearing them, > they > >must sing "the goggles song" ( I'll save that for another time )in front > of > >the whole class. > > > > Nick Pinizzotto > > Nick...we MUST have the goggles song! > > Harry Elston > > > Harry J. Elston, Ph.D. > Editor, Chemical Health and Safety > and Chemical Hygiene Officer > Illinois Department of Nuclear Safety > Opinions are my own, not my employer's, blah, blah, blah > > "As a matter of fact, I do know 10 things that are carved > in stone." > -God > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:08:17 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Martin Besant Subject: Re: Methanol Demo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hope no one believes the explosion was an accident caused by static elec. The only reason to put 2 ml of methanol in a 1 liter container is to demonstrate an explosion The accident was the wrong container choice. This demo is best done in PETE or HDPE. I prefer a 64 oz juice jug with a large cork. And evryone has goggles IMHO I am very skeptical of the majority of injuries. I think too many have been trained that if some one is hurt, we have all been injured. And that means entitled to compensation. For what its worth Marty Besant West Seneca East Sr HS A suburb of Buffalo, NY ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:57:46 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: Re(3): Explosion at Bakersfield High School MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I also remember the glass 5 gal water cooler bottles. In fact, my brother has one he uses to collect pocket change. (It takes a while to fill...) They were *very* heavy. However, one must wonder about the stess damage from usage, both for water and demos, and bumping the table edge, etc. It states in the article that "students heard a crack before...". This lends credibility to the "stress failure" theory. Tammy Tayman > -----Original Message----- > From: Greene, Ben [mailto:bgreene@SMTP3.WSTF.NASA.GOV] > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:44 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: Re(3): Explosion at Bakersfield High School > > > Nick - I (or maybe the Sparkletts bottle that blew) > must be old; > Sparketts bottles used to be made of glass, and were rather > stout. There > didn't appear to be much of it left to do a failure analysis. Out of > curiousity, when Wayne uses a safety shield, on which side of > the bottle is > it placed (toward the instructor or toward the class)? I witnessed a > similar (UEL, LEL) demonstration at the OSHA Training > Institute a couple > years ago, except a 5 gallon plastic water bottle was used. The > demonstration was performed in an open classroom that > positively reeked of > burned plastics/plasticizers after the burn. Ironically, it was an > industrial hygiene class in which air contaminants and respiratory > protection were also on the agenda. > > Ben Greene > AlliedSignal > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:08:50 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Subject: Re(2): Methanol Demo Comments: To: MBesant@AOL.COM Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MBesant@AOL.COM writes: >Hope no one believes the explosion was an accident caused by static elec. >The >only reason to put 2 ml of methanol in a 1 liter container is to >demonstrate >an explosion As always seems to occur, some fallacies get out before the facts are straight. The news today relays the involvement of a lighted wooden match. > >And evryone has goggles It is my impression at this time, that goggles were not in use. > >IMHO I am very skeptical of the majority of injuries. 33 students in the room, 22 injured. I saw television footage of the amount of glass shards sprayed across the room. There was glass throughout the room, glass stuck in the ceiling and glass stuck in the draperies. One student's eye was bandaged by the hospital to keep it immobile due to suspicion of glass in the eye. Two other students reported eye irritation. I think I am surprised there were only 22 students injured. They were fortunate, the hospital is right across the street from the high school. The television footage also shared with us, comments by a student that are a PR nightmare. >I think too many have >been trained that if some one is hurt, we have all been injured. We also have been trained to get all potential injuries adequately evaluated, lest we give more reason for victims to seek compensation. > Marty, you say you use a cork when you do this? Is this the same demo referred to as The Methanol Cannon, that injured high school students at a Valencia, CA area high school a couple years ago? Teresa Robertson CSUB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:48:44 +1200 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: Re(3): Explosion at Bakersfield High School MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well made point Jim. On the nefarious side of life many arsonists fail in their mission because they think more is better and get a too rich mixture which burns too slowly or consumes the available Oxygen and self extinguishes. On the other side there are those who get it "right" and they can usually be picked up at the scene in a very groggy condition. Hash Oil labs (which generally don't have Safety Officers!!) boil iso Propanol on kitchen elements and frequently blow out windows and themselves. In anywhere but a laboratory the use of a flame or any other source of ignition, within about 8 metres (25 feet) of a low flash point liquid such as Methanol is illegal. Tony Haggerty NZFS New Zealand "Trust us, we know what we're doing!!" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:02:08 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Job Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings NACHO-ites, Yesterday was my last day at UT. Although I'm the first and last Asst. Dean for EHS, the College of Natural Sciences will be hiring a full-time "safety person." Nothing has been posted yet but I advise those who are interested to keep an eye on UT's employment page, http://www.utexas.edu/employment/. You'll have to fill out an electronic form to access information, and all applications are electronic. PLEASE do not e-mail resumes to anyone (especially me). Once the position is posted I'll be happy to chat with prospective applicants. Please keep in mind that, as I'm no longer a UT employee (although I do still have a UT e-mail address), my opinions are both plentiful and mine alone. This could be an interesting position. I think UT still has a many challenges that the executives haven't addressed, but the safety infrastructure here is much better than it was when I arrived in 8/97. We now have a real EH&S Director, a brand new but very experienced Fire Marshal, a new Chief of Police, and more upper-level determination to face some problems. The position will be within the College of Natural Sciences but will work very closely with our EH&S Dept. It will NOT be an enforcement position, but there will be people to deal with enforcement (what a concept). I don't know exactly what the requirements will be, but here's a rough idea: - Degreed safety professional - MA/MS preferred plus several years experience (more with a BA/BA) - Possessing or eligible to test for major certification (e.g., CSP, CIH, CBSP, CCHO) - Research lab experience (as tech, PI, grad student) - Work experience at an academic institution (i.e., someone who has worked only in industry, regardless of research experience, will probably not be eligible) Again, this is my understanding of what will appear, but this is not authoritative nor am I part of the decision-making process at this point. Time to "lurk" for a little while... Onward, JNR ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:50:22 -0500 Reply-To: Fawn LeMay Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Fawn LeMay Subject: New Member & Chem Storage Temps Quest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0093_01BEF4A2.76CA47C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01BEF4A2.76CA47C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! I'm new to this list, and I think the list members will be able to = help me a great deal. I'm in my second year of a second career teaching = high school science. I've fallen into the "safety guru" position for my = small department and am trying to fix what I see as some major science = safety problems/issues in our school. Many of my questions (and I could = probably provide 50 right now) will deal with chemical storage (my = background is in physics and meteorology, not chemistry). For now I'll = just start with one concern ... I need information on appropriate room temperature ranges and humidity = levels for chemical storage rooms. A reference I have just states = 55-80F and dry (which I interpret as less than 30% humidity). My high = school is having problems with its cooling system, and I'm getting very = concerned about damage to and hazards from the chemicals we have stored, = and no I don't yet have an MSDS on each chemical we have stored. Fawn R. LeMay=20 flemay@esu3.esu3.k12.ne.us Science Teacher Plattsmouth High School Plattsmouth, NE 68048 ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01BEF4A2.76CA47C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!  I'm new to = this list,=20 and I think the list members will be able to help me a great deal.  = I'm in=20 my second year of a second career teaching high school science.  = I've=20 fallen into the "safety guru" position for my small department = and am=20 trying to fix what I see as some major science safety problems/issues in = our=20 school.  Many of my questions (and I could probably provide 50 = right now)=20 will deal with chemical storage (my background is in physics and = meteorology,=20 not chemistry).  For now I'll just start with one concern = ...
 
I need information = on=20 appropriate room temperature ranges and humidity levels for chemical = storage=20 rooms.  A reference I have just states 55-80F and dry (which I = interpret as=20 less than 30% humidity).  My high school is having problems with = its=20 cooling system, and I'm getting very concerned about damage to and = hazards from=20 the chemicals we have stored, and no I don't yet have an MSDS on each = chemical=20 we have stored.
 
Fawn R. LeMay
flemay@esu3.esu3.k12.ne.us=
Science=20 Teacher
Plattsmouth High School
Plattsmouth, NE=20 68048
------=_NextPart_000_0093_01BEF4A2.76CA47C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:38:51 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Subject: Liability and Explosion at Bakersfield High School Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Another article from bakersfield.com 9-1-1999 but first, a comment... My son took chemistry last year at a different high school in this same district. He told me the students were required to wear goggles at all times during lab work. I responded favorably. He said, but Mom, we even had to wear them when measuring the temperature of water with ice melting in it. I said, that was not too extreme, when using glass and a hot plate. He said, no Mom, we weren't using hot plates, and we were using styrofoam cups. I said, really? He said, well yes, but the teacher said he wanted us to be in the habit of using goggles, and keeping them on, because the hazards would increase for future labs. Teresa R. Robertson CSUB Cost of treatment will be covered by KHSD insurance Filed: August 31, 1999 By CHRISTINE L. PETERSON Californian staff writer e-mail: cpeterson@bakersfield.com The Kern High School District, through its insurance carrier, will cover the cost of treatment and transportation for students injured by an explosion in a science classroom Tuesday, a district administrator said. "We are concerned first and foremost about the safety and health of our students and teachers," said Don Carter, the district's assistant superintendent of instruction. The district is a member of Self Insured Schools of California, which sent a safety and loss control specialist to evaluate the mishap. It is still being assessed and it's too early to comment on the investigation of what happened, said Jim Varley, spokesman for the Kern County Superintendent of Schools office that houses SISC. Several East Bakersfield High School students were sent to local hospitals after something went wrong during a chemistry class demonstration, and pieces of glass shot across the classroom. Administrators at the high school are investigating, too, but Carter said he couldn't comment on the specifics of what happened until he sees a report from the teacher. "It is a textbook-approved demonstration and it is fairly benign," said John Gibson, principal of East Bakersfield High School, adding that the demonstration is done by some teachers early in the chemistry course. "Something didn't work right and that's what we are looking into." Brad Rappleye, teacher and chairman of the science department at Highland High School, also in the KHSD, said that "to use methanol is not uncommon. It's a simple alcohol." He said students are taught how to wear safety equipment and use eye washers, showers and fire extinguishers as needed. Rappleye pointed out that at Highland alone there are about 45 science classes that meet every school day, creating thousands and thousands of hours that students and teachers work in science labs across the district. Rappleye said the district's safety record is good, and teachers always look for ways to make it even better. For example, he pointed out that several years ago the district began using smaller quantities of chemicals, not just to conserve resources and cut down on the cost of disposing of waste, but also to improve safety. What precautions are required? "Generally when demonstrations or experiments in science classrooms that involve corrosive liquids or combustible materials, that in the judgement of the instructor pose a safety risk, that appropriate eye protection be used by those involved," Carter said. He said school officials rely on the teacher's judgment, coupled with safety precautions listed in lab manuals or from the chemical suppliers, to decide when and what kind of safety measures should be taken. Carter said the district follows the California Education Code that says eye protection should be used when engaging in or observing anything likely to be hazardous. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:45:08 -0400 Reply-To: "edmiston@bluffton.edu" Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Michael Edmiston Organization: Bluffton College Subject: Re: Re(3): Explosion at Bakersfield High School MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, but I don't quite buy this. By mentioning the weight of the car and occupants, the implication (perhaps not intended) is that this car could be flung a couple hundred feet into the air by the explosion of 2 ml of methanol. If it were truly intended to imply that 2 ml of methanol can roll a car down a smooth level street a distance of a couple hundred feet, then the weight of the car and occupants wouldn't matter much, because all we're doing is supplying the work to overcome rolling friction and air friction. That actually isn't very much. I am often surprised how little rolling friction there is in my Chrysler minivan. On my smooth level garage floor I can put that car in neutral and easily push it with one hand. So don't be fooled into thinking that rolling a 2000 pound car plus occupants a couple hundred feet is a tremendous feat. The reason we get 20 miles per gallon (instead of a lot more) is (1) accelerating and decelerating (i.e. putting energy into heat in the brakes) and (2) air friction at highway speeds. The energy expended into rolling friction at low speeds is not very much. Basically, I am unable to decide if I should be impressed by Jim's calculation or not. Here's the way I would do it: (1) The heat of combustion of gaseous methanol is 764 kJ/mol. (2) 2 ml methanol * 0.79 g/ml / 32 g/mol = 0.0494 mol (3) 0.0494 mol * 764 kJ/mol = 37.7 kJ energy released by 2 ml methanol (4) If we were lift a 2000-lb car plus 1000-lb of occupants straight up, the energy required is mgh where m is the mass, g is 9.8 m/s^2, h is the height to which it is lifted. (5) 3000-lb / 2.2 lb/kg = 1364 kg (6) h = U/mg = 37.7E3 joules / (1364 kg * 9.8 m/s^2) = 2.8 meters Therefore, if none of this energy escaped as heat, and all of it went into lifting... complete explosive combustion of 2 ml of methanol could blast a 2000-lb car with 1000-lb of occupants straight up into the air a distance of 2.8 meters. That's above my head. I do not have to wonder whether or not to be impressed by that... that's clearly impressive. So Jim's overall message is a good one. But I don't want anyone to have the impression that 2 ml of methanol could blast a car 200 feet into the air. Again, Jim might not have intended that interpretation, but I suspect some of you thought that. And for those who imagined rolling a car for 200 feet, it's hard to judge if that's impressive or not. Michael D. Edmiston, Ph.D. Phone/voice-mail: 419-358-3270 Professor of Chemistry & Physics FAX: 419-358-3323 Chairman, Science Department E-Mail edmiston@bluffton.edu Bluffton College 280 West College Avenue Bluffton, OH 45817 -----Original Message----- From: Labsafe@AOL.COM [SMTP:Labsafe@AOL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 9:56 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Re(3): Explosion at Bakersfield High School In a message dated 99-08-31 15:46:42 EDT, you write: << And where they got such powerful Methanol. 2 ml?? >> Hi NACHOs, One gallon of gasoline (about 4000 ml) can take a 2000 pound car and five 150-200 pound passengers anywhere from 15 to 30 miles. Now, that engine is only about 20% efficient. So, if all the energy were used, that would be 75 to 150 miles. Now divide by 2000. So, two ml of gasoline is good for sending a 2000 pound car and five folks about 0.04 to 0.08 miles (200-400 feet). Of course, methanol liberates less energy on combustion. But, you get the idea. Bottom line... don't kid yourself about the damage that 2ml of fuel can do on a bad day.... ... jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, Director The Laboratory Safety Workshop Safety in Science Education 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 labsafe@aol.com http://www.labsafety.org/ LSW is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, seminar schedule, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 06:29:25 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Elise Windus Subject: Re: Acid use in teaching labs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It will probably also work with some of the less dangerous acids, and even with some dilute ones. Why don't you have someone on staff explore this a little? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:33:22 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: Acid use in teaching labs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Why Concentrated nitric? I'm sure a more dilute solution would achieve similar results. What's happening now just sounds like a bad lab experiment give lack of engineering controls. For what its worth, Janeen. :):):):):):):):):):):):) Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. >>> Naomi Kelly - 9/1/99 8:59 AM >>> We have biology labs that use concentrated nitric acid to show reaction with egg yolks. They are presently conducting this experiment without the use of hoods. The students do this experiment themselves using about 2-3 ml of nitric/experiment. This experiment is performed about 270 times over the course of a week. I have outlined the PPE requirements. But they do not have a hoods in these labs. Thoughts on ventilation requirements would be appreciated. Naomi Kelly Environmental Health and Safety Officer Clemson University 261 P&AS Building Clemson, SC 29634-5740 (864)656-7554 Fax (864)656-7630 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:35:26 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Gillian Gardner Subject: Re: Acid use in teaching labs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII We do a similar experiment from the Chemistry in Context laboratory manual. Instead of yolks, though, it uses a solution of 1 egg white in 100 ml water. Instead of conc. acids, we use 6 M solutions of HCl, H2SO4 and HNO3. Gillian Gardner On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Janeen LaPierre wrote: > Why Concentrated nitric? I'm sure a more dilute solution would achieve similar results. What's happening now just sounds like a bad lab experiment give lack of engineering controls. > > For what its worth, Janeen. > > :):):):):):):):):):):):) > Janeen Lapierre, CHO > College of Osteopathic Medicine > University of New England > 11 Hills Beach Road > Biddeford, ME 04005 > > E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU > Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 > Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. > > >>> Naomi Kelly - 9/1/99 8:59 AM >>> > We have biology labs that use concentrated nitric acid to show reaction > with egg yolks. They are presently conducting this experiment without the > use of hoods. The students do this experiment themselves using about 2-3 ml > of nitric/experiment. This experiment is performed about 270 times over the > course of a week. I have outlined the PPE requirements. But they do not > have a hoods in these labs. Thoughts on ventilation requirements would be > appreciated. > > > > > > Naomi Kelly > Environmental Health and Safety Officer > Clemson University > 261 P&AS Building > Clemson, SC 29634-5740 > (864)656-7554 > Fax (864)656-7630 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:48:43 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: david shearer Subject: MSDS & SOP for LN2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for a good MSDS for liguid nitrogen (LN2) and general Standard Operating Procedures for handling & transferring between dewars in laboratory. Sources? Thanks David Shearer Laboratory Hygienist University Safety Office, MSC3578 New Mexico State University P.O.Box 30001 Las Cruces, NM 88003 Tel: (505) 646-3327 Fax: (505) 646-7898 e-mail: dshearer@nmsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:35:42 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: PATRICIA BARKER Organization: Wabash College Subject: Re: MSDS & SOP for LN2 In-Reply-To: <37CEAA6A.A80F36B7@nmsu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT David, Try Puritan Bennett. Mine is sepcifically for liquid Nitrogen. Pat Date sent: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:48:43 -0600 From: david shearer Subject: MSDS & SOP for LN2 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Send reply to: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List I am looking for a good MSDS for liguid nitrogen (LN2) and general Standard Operating Procedures for handling & transferring between dewars in laboratory. Sources? Thanks David Shearer Laboratory Hygienist University Safety Office, MSC3578 New Mexico State University P.O.Box 30001 Las Cruces, NM 88003 Tel: (505) 646-3327 Fax: (505) 646-7898 e-mail: dshearer@nmsu.edu ********************************************************************** Patricia Barker Barkerp@Wabash.edu Curator, Chemistry Department Phone 765-361-6207 Wabash College 301 West Wabash Ave Fax 765-361-6340 Crawfordsville, IN 47933 8:-) ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:52:22 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Debbie Decker Subject: Re: MSDS & SOP for LN2 In-Reply-To: <37CEAA6A.A80F36B7@nmsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:48 AM 9/2/99 -0600, you wrote: >I am looking for a good MSDS for liguid nitrogen (LN2) and general >Standard Operating Procedures for handling & transferring between dewars >in laboratory. Sources? David: Head out to our website, http://ehs.ucdavis.edu, and search for liquid nitrogen. It should pull up several references we have on the site about working with cryogens. The search is a new feature - let me know how it works :) Regards, Deb. Debbie M. Decker, Health and Safety Specialist Environmental Health and Safety University of California, Davis 1 Shields Ave. Davis, CA 95616 (530)754-7964 (530)752-1493 dmdecker@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:54:54 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Michael Hottott Subject: Re: Explosion at Bakersfield High School In-Reply-To: <01BEF4CB.A5398020.edmiston@bluffton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" For those of you interested in reading about the demo and safety notes, check out: J Chem Ed 1999, 76, 1092-94: That's the August 1999 issue. \ Palatino0BEF,00F5,1197- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Michael G. Hottott Department of Chemistry University of Puget Sound Tacoma, WA 98416 e-mail: mhottott@ups.edu Voice: 253-879-3350 FAX: 253-879-3352 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:49:31 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Cylinder storage guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are revising our cylinder storage guidelines. I would like to get some examples of wording used regarding how to secure a single cylinder and also multiple cylinders in a single area. I am needing policies about small cylinders, such as lecture bottles, and "standard" cylinders that nitrogen, helium, and hydrogen come in. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Julie O'Brien Archimica (Florida) and EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville afn35210@afn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:54:12 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Safety inspection checklists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do any of you use checklists to perform safety inspections? I am collecting different types of checklists which are available. If you have one which you think works well, could you send or fax a copy to me? If you do not use checklists, what type of documentation do you use? Our safety team performs monthly inspections. We are trying to develop a non-regulatory system for our safety team inspections. (We already have another group who performs routine regulatory inspections.) We would like the format to be simple enough that very little additional training would be required. Thanks for your suggestions! Julie O'Brien Archimica (Florida) PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 (work) 352-373-7503 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:38:15 -0400 Reply-To: "edmiston@bluffton.edu" Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Michael Edmiston Organization: Bluffton College Subject: Re: Acid use in teaching labs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gillian Gardner suggested using 6 M solutions of acids outside the fume hood rather than attempting to use the concentrated acid. I would like to add my affirmation to this suggestion and also describe our policy. Our chemical hygiene plan calls for all use of concentrated acids (HCl, HNO3, H2SO4, acetic, etc.) in the fume hood... even small quantities. The problem, of course, is the vapors, because even one whiff of the vapors from conc. HCl is not good for the nose, eyes, etc. Absolutely requiring these in the hood is both prudent and also consistent with the MSDS and bottle labels. But diluted solutions of these acids emit much less vapor (as long as they're not heated nor evaporated). Our policy, for HCl, for example, is that each student in a lab (with fume hoods running) may use up to 100 ml of 6 N HCl on the bench top as long as it is not being heated or evaporated (spread over large area). They can use similar ratios, i.e. up to 200 ml of 3 N HCl, up to 400 ml of 1.5 N HCl. Of course evaporation is a problem with spills, so spilled material must properly cleaned up... it cannot just be spread out to evaporate. It's interesting that acetic acid (in this grouping) causes more of a problem. Even a 5% solution (common vinegar) causes complaints if it is being heated. Some people are very sensitive to this and become nauseous or get headaches. Even running vinegar through our department's coffee pot causes some people to become ill. Thus, we actually clean our coffee pot in a fume hood. Thus, for things like acetic acid, not only do we have a numerical suggestion for the strength of solution that can be used outside the hood, we also have an odor policy. If dilute acetic acid is being used outside the hood, but someone complains they smell it and it is bothering them, it must go into the hood. In general, that requires even vinegar be used in the hood if it is being heated. Michael D. Edmiston, Ph.D. Phone/voice-mail: 419-358-3270 Professor of Chemistry & Physics FAX: 419-358-3323 Chairman, Science Department E-Mail edmiston@bluffton.edu Bluffton College 280 West College Avenue Bluffton, OH 45817 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:32:51 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Gonzalez, Lisa" Subject: Re: Safety inspection checklists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BEF621.8436797E" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BEF621.8436797E Content-Type: text/plain Here is the one we use. I also have a training session that coincides with this in PowerPoint. I can email that to individuals if you want it. <> Lisa A. Gonzalez, NRCC-CHO R&D Safety and Health Officer lisa.gonzalez@pharma.com -----Original Message----- From: Julie O'Brien [SMTP:afn35210@AFN.ORG] Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 8:54 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Safety inspection checklists Do any of you use checklists to perform safety inspections? I am collecting different types of checklists which are available. If you have one which you think works well, could you send or fax a copy to me? If you do not use checklists, what type of documentation do you use? Our safety team performs monthly inspections. We are trying to develop a non-regulatory system for our safety team inspections. (We already have another group who performs routine regulatory inspections.) We would like the format to be simple enough that very little additional training would be required. Thanks for your suggestions! Julie O'Brien Archimica (Florida) PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 (work) 352-373-7503 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:33:09 -0500 Reply-To: swihart@purdue.edu Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: L A Swihart Organization: Purdue University Subject: Re: Explosion at Bakersfield High School MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Teresa Robertson wrote: > article below is from bakersfield.com > 9-1-99, 8:00 am > You will find a photo of the classroom at the website. This morning's > printed paper also had a photo of a student at the hospital waiting for > stitches, an explanation of the experiment with diagrams, and a diagram of > the classroom showing location of desks, students, demo table, etc. Now that a few days have passed and the newspaper articles are in web archives, I can't seem to find any photos. If you captured any or have a link that still works, please let me know. I would like to see. The three articles I found in the archives can be reached via the LSW web site NEWS link. http://www.labsafety.org/ Linda ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:37:53 -0500 Reply-To: swihart@purdue.edu Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: L A Swihart Organization: Purdue University Subject: Re: Cylinder storage guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We are revising our cylinder storage guidelines. I would like to get some > examples of wording used regarding how to secure a single cylinder and also > multiple cylinders in a single area. I am needing policies about small > cylinders, such as lecture bottles, and "standard" cylinders that nitrogen, > helium, and hydrogen come in. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Julie O'Brien A policy that I have been working with is that uncapped cylinders must be supported individually. Whether they're actually "in use," or attached to equipment, or have a regulator hooked up.... is irrelevant. If the cap is not on (all the way), they have to be supported each by its own support, not ganged together two or twenty behind a single chain. It only makes sense because if you've got more than one behind a single chain, guess how many are NOT SUPPORTED at all when you undo the chain to change one out... $.02 Linda ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:11:32 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob CArey Subject: Re: Safety inspection checklists MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BEF5EC.51A1D580" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ------ =_NextPart_000_01BEF5EC.51A1D580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lisa, Thanks for your willingness to share your PowerPoint presention with = interested people. I would love to see it. Would you please e-mail it = to me at rcarey@pimacc.pima.edu? Thank-you, Rob Carey ---------- From: Gonzalez, Lisa[SMTP:Lisa.Gonzalez@PHARMA.COM] Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 8:32 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Safety inspection checklists <> Here is the one we use. I also have a training session that coincides = with this in PowerPoint. I can email that to individuals if you want it. <> Lisa A. Gonzalez, NRCC-CHO R&D Safety and Health Officer lisa.gonzalez@pharma.com -----Original Message----- From: Julie O'Brien [SMTP:afn35210@AFN.ORG] Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 8:54 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Safety inspection checklists Do any of you use checklists to perform safety inspections? I am collecting different types of checklists which are available. If you have = one which you think works well, could you send or fax a copy to me? If you do = not use checklists, what type of documentation do you use? Our safety = team performs monthly inspections. We are trying to develop a non-regulatory system for our safety team inspections. (We already have another group who performs routine regulatory inspections.) We would like the format to be simple enough that very little additional training would be required. Thanks for your suggestions! Julie O'Brien Archimica (Florida) PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 (work) 352-373-7503 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:49:05 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Naomi Kelly Subject: Re: Safety inspection checklists In-Reply-To: <01BEF5EC.51896B80@ecc-54330.ec.pima.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have not been able to open your attachment successfully--what program what used? Thanks At 09:11 AM 9/3/99 -0700, you wrote: >Lisa, > >Thanks for your willingness to share your PowerPoint presention with >interested people. I would love to see it. Would you please e-mail it to >me at rcarey@pimacc.pima.edu? > >Thank-you, > >Rob Carey > >---------- >From: Gonzalez, Lisa[SMTP:Lisa.Gonzalez@PHARMA.COM] >Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 8:32 AM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject: Re: Safety inspection checklists > ><> >Here is the one we use. I also have a training session that coincides with >this in PowerPoint. I can email that to individuals if you want it. > > > <> > > >Lisa A. Gonzalez, NRCC-CHO >R&D Safety and Health Officer >lisa.gonzalez@pharma.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Julie O'Brien [SMTP:afn35210@AFN.ORG] > Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 8:54 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Safety inspection checklists > > Do any of you use checklists to perform safety inspections? I am >collecting > different types of checklists which are available. If you have one >which you > think works well, could you send or fax a copy to me? If you do not >use > checklists, what type of documentation do you use? Our safety team >performs > monthly inspections. We are trying to develop a non-regulatory >system for > our safety team inspections. (We already have another group who >performs > routine regulatory inspections.) We would like the format to be >simple > enough that very little additional training would be required. >Thanks for > your suggestions! > > Julie O'Brien > Archimica (Florida) > PO Box 1466 > Gainesville, FL 32602 > 352-376-8246 (work) > 352-373-7503 (fax) > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 14:55:30 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Frank l. Switzer" Subject: Re: Safety inspection checklists In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990903134709.009e8200@mail.clemson.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:49 PM 9/3/99 -0400, you wrote: >I have not been able to open your attachment successfully--what program >what used? >Thanks Some older versions of e-mail programs have trouble with attachments with long file names (more than 8 characters). Eudora Lite 3.0.6 or newer works with these (eudora.com). It's an MSWord document. Regards, Frank =============================================== Frank L. Switzer, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Chemistry, Coker College 300 East College Ave. Hartsville, SC 29550 Phone: (843)383-8090 Fax:(843)383-8048 e-mail: fswitzer@pascal.coker.edu http://www.coker.edu/chemistry =============================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 14:18:31 -0500 Reply-To: swihart@purdue.edu Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: L A Swihart Organization: Purdue University Subject: see checklists at web site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem is also sometimes that many many people are still working with Window 3.x and Word 6. (Or whatever operating system, but with some older word processing software that will not open Word 97 or Word 2000 -- or some other relatively recent format -- files. There are some checklists and links to checklists at the LSW web site. There are some choices too, for Word 6, Word 97, or RTF (rich text format). RTF files should open with most or all basic formatting preserved on most all Macs and PCs, with any word processing software released within about the last five years (I'm guessing but I think that's about right. Anybody who konws a lot about it let me know if it's not.) http://www.labsafety.org/ Choose Services and then "free docs." Linda Frank l. Switzer wrote: > > At 01:49 PM 9/3/99 -0400, you wrote: > >I have not been able to open your attachment successfully--what program > >what used? > >Thanks > > Some older versions of e-mail programs have trouble with attachments > with long file names (more than 8 characters). Eudora Lite 3.0.6 > or newer works with these (eudora.com). It's an MSWord document. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:27:23 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Gonzalez, Lisa" Subject: Re: Safety inspection checklists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BEF642.4B43A4E2" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BEF642.4B43A4E2 Content-Type: text/plain No problem. I hope it is useful. <> Lisa A. Gonzalez, NRCC-CHO R&D Safety and Health Officer lisa.gonzalez@pharma.com -----Original Message----- From: rcarey@east.pima.edu [SMTP:rcarey@east.pima.edu] Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 12:12 PM To: 'LABSAFETY-L Discussion List' Subject: RE: Safety inspection checklists Lisa, Thanks for your willingness to share your PowerPoint presention with interested people. I would love to see it. Would you please e-mail it to me at rcarey@pimacc.pima.edu? Thank-you, Rob Carey ---------- From: Gonzalez, Lisa[SMTP:Lisa.Gonzalez@PHARMA.COM] Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 8:32 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Safety inspection checklists <> Here is the one we use. I also have a training session that coincides with this in PowerPoint. I can email that to individuals if you want it. <> Lisa A. Gonzalez, NRCC-CHO R&D Safety and Health Officer lisa.gonzalez@pharma.com -----Original Message----- From: Julie O'Brien [SMTP:afn35210@AFN.ORG] Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 8:54 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Safety inspection checklists Do any of you use checklists to perform safety inspections? I am collecting different types of checklists which are available. If you have one which you think works well, could you send or fax a copy to me? If you do not use checklists, what type of documentation do you use? Our safety team performs monthly inspections. We are trying to develop a non-regulatory system for our safety team inspections. (We already have another group who performs routine regulatory inspections.) We would like the format to be simple enough that very little additional training would be required. Thanks for your suggestions! Julie O'Brien Archimica (Florida) PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 (work) 352-373-7503 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 20:18:43 -0500 Reply-To: swihart@purdue.edu Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: L A Swihart Organization: Purdue University Subject: well... ppt presentation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a dumb time to ask you these questions, but oh well. (I mean it's dumb since I'm essentially done doing what it is I'm asking you if it's OK to do, plus some finer details about it.) Do you want the ppt presentation available from the LSW web site? The implications: pro: People can get it without you having to send it to them people will simply find it (maybe) it's generic (I made it generic); others can use it there is a web version; I prefer this for presentations even though you can't advance the projector with a remote anymore con: Anybody could take it and say they wrote it (even sell it, or try to copyright it). PRobably not awfully likely, but it's there. Options for having it at the LSW web site are: 1)Make it generic but cite you as the author, and include a "may be used for educational purposes only... may not be exchanged for goods, services, or currency. Author will incur no liability related to the adequacy of the material for the needs of any audience." or something like that. 2) Don't make it generic, and disclaim it similarly. See the link to your presentation at http://www.labsafety.org/freedocs.htm or the ppt presentation it leads to at http://www.labsafety.org/files/ppt1/ What are your thoughts about this? Thanks, Linda ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 20:27:11 -0500 Reply-To: swihart@purdue.edu Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: L A Swihart Organization: Purdue University Subject: ARRRGGGGHHHH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That was supposed to go to Lisa, not to the list. I am very sorry. Linda L A Swihart wrote: > > This is a dumb time to ask you these questions, but oh well. (I mean ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 17:14:15 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Re: Safety inspection checklists In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Fellow NACHO-ites, PLEASE do not send attachments directly to the list. Thanks, JNR Jeff Rubin jrubin@mail.utexas.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 05:45:56 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) Comments: To: CHEMCOM@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu Comments: cc: SAFETY@list.uvm.edu, chemed-l@atlantis.uwf.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi CHEMCOM, CHEMEDs, NACHOs, and SAFETYs, I would appreciate hearing what other readers think about having lab accident reports referred to their list and their reaction to Bob's comments. ... Jim In a message dated 9/3/99 12:05:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU writes: << Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:54:00 -0400 From: Bob Venner Subject: Methanol Demo This is not an endorsement for careless (or hazardous) lab procedures, but let's recognize that more mishaps are likely in the Chemistry Lab than the English classroom. Marty is absolutely correct on SEVERAL points and this persistent, wanna be lawyer, JAMES A. KAUFMAN, is feeding the bureaucratic and administrative scare frenzy by gleefully advertising this accident (He had his ominous, unbiased announcements/warnings on 2 lists before the "smoke" cleared But of course, that's how he hopes to make a living!). Because of attitudes like JAK's, his scare tactics, with willing help from the American Bar Association, our children are being trained, by default, to be victims at the drop of a hat, wherever and whenever the opportunity presents itself. The entire methanol mishap is just that, a mishap. (Plus, think of the teaching points in just the mishap itself.) It SHOULD NOT become a "federal case", but no suck luck, thanks to JAK and his ilk (I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut, JAK has already alerted 6.022 X 10^23 lawyers.). The more labs we do, the more we NEED (to pay) JAK. If we don't pay-up/enlist, we have no excuse because we were warned of the dangers, with examples, by JAK . Woe be unto us! Bob Venner Virginia Beach VA >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 14:00:18 -0500 Reply-To: swihart@purdue.edu Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: L A Swihart Organization: Purdue University Subject: response to Venner's little bout of Jim-bashing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hi CHEMCOM, CHEMEDs, NACHOs, and SAFETYs, > I would appreciate hearing what other readers think about having lab accident > reports referred to their list and their reaction to Bob's comments. ... Jim >> Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:54:00 -0400 >> From: Bob Venner >> Subject: Methanol Demo >> >> This is not an endorsement for careless (or hazardous) lab procedures, but >> let's recognize that more mishaps are likely in the Chemistry Lab than the >> English classroom. I guess so. Not sure what his point is exactly. Does he suppose this is not obvious? Of course in either classroom they are less likely when greater care is taken to prevent them. >> Marty is absolutely correct on SEVERAL points and this persistent, wanna be >> lawyer, JAMES A. KAUFMAN, is feeding the bureaucratic and administrative >> scare frenzy by gleefully advertising this accident (He had his ominous, >> unbiased announcements/warnings on 2 lists before the "smoke" cleared But >> of course, that's how he hopes to make a living!). Because of attitudes >> like JAK's, his scare tactics, with willing help from the American Bar >> Association, our children are being trained, by default, to be victims at >> the drop of a hat, wherever and whenever the opportunity presents itself. I have studied all the CHEMCOM posts at their archives http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/chemcom.html to see what this is all about. MNSHO is that Mr. Venner was just having a bad day, although David Hole has written a sincere and thoughtfull consideration of the perceptions which might be triggered in some readers by Jim's posts, < http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9909&L=chemcom&F=&S=&P=1066 >, and Mr. Venner seems to be one of those people (having a bad day). And Jim, this is basically one of the big reasons I advised you once to drop the LSW "advertising" signature from your email posts, at least to the lists.) What Marty Bessant said (which Venner refers to) is at < http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9909&L=chemcom&F=&S=&P=180 > and I never quite followed him when it appeared on the Labsafety-L list (unless I'm missing a post). Part of it is irrelevant, posted when people were speculating about why the demo ignited, before anyone identified it as having been LIT intentionally. The rest is Bessant's musing sceptical on the number of injuries being inflated, or the report being exaggerated.... a possible pooh-poohing of the idea that so many were taken to the hospital and regarded as injured and that this is a bad thing because it encourages people to sue. I agree that this can happen (people thinking they should sue because somebody makes a serious deal out of minor injuries), but all such injuries are serious. I don't mean they're "serious injuries," but that they have to taken very seriously and looked at by a doctor. A kid with a little cut on the arm could have a half-centimeter piece of glass inside and it would be criminal to overlook it, for example. The "ominous, unbiased announcements/warnings" (did he mean unbiased or biased?) seem to be merely the copies of news articles. I DO NOT SEE AND HAVE NEVER SEEN that Jim encourages victim mentality or intends to alert lawyers so he can further his career as a lecturer or expert witness. I whole-heartedly believe that his interest in and devotion to safety in education (and in using electronic communication to its fullest to share relevant information) is not based on furthering his career but on genuine care and conviction. It's always a little confusing knowing whether to believe someone who's endorsing a product that they sell. There are so many charlatans and liars in the world endorsing mediocre or bad products, and out solely for personal gain, that the confusion is understandable. (My personal take on why the world is going to hell-in-a-handbasket in this manner is that every time we let someone cheat, even a little, e.g. permit someone to tell the 7-year-old to stand on his toes to be that half-inch taller so he can ride the big coaster, silently suffer a friend's fib about the 13-year old so she gets the 12-year-old movie price, gloat about getting too much change at the grocery.... we teach our children to be dishonest to get what they want. So they grow up doing it) >> The entire methanol mishap is just that, a mishap. (Plus, think of the >> teaching points in just the mishap itself.) It SHOULD NOT become a >> "federal case", but no suck luck, thanks to JAK and his ilk (I'll bet a >> dollar to a doughnut, JAK has already alerted 6.022 X 10^23 lawyers.). One of my least favorite sayings is (paraphrased) "STUFF HAPPENS." Sure it does, but less of it happens to people who are careful. I agree that we should milk every accident we can find for all the training benefits for which it can be used. And I would like to thank "JAK and his ilk" for helping make accident stories available. >> The more labs we do, the more we NEED (to pay) JAK. If we don't >> pay-up/enlist, we have no excuse because we were warned of the dangers, >> with examples, by JAK . Woe be unto us! I say BS about the woe part. $0.02, Linda ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 19:56:06 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Job Oppening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:06:52 -0400 From: "Cohen, Barry" Subject: Employment Opportunity DO NOT REPLY TO THE LIST ======================================== Please respond to: Beverly Gaal Manager, Corporate Health & Safety Genzyme Corporation Metro West Place Framingham, MA 01701 Employment Opportunity Site Manager, Health & Safety Department Genzyme Corporation 76 New York Avenue Framingham, MA 01701 Corporation Overview Founded in 1981, Genzyme Corporation is a healthcare products company that focuses on developing and providing innovative solutions to major unresolved medical needs. The Corporation is organized into four primary business areas-- biotherapeutics, surgical products, diagnostic products & services, and pharmaceuticals and fine chemicals. The corporation's international headquarters are located in Cambridge, Massachusetts, with production and research facilities in Boston, Cambridge and Framingham, Massachusetts. Internationally, the corporation is located in Maidstone and Haverhill, England; Russelsheim Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland and Japan. The Company currently employs approximately 3500 people worldwide. Minimum Job Requirements Bachelor of Science in a related field (natural sciences, industrial hygiene, occupational health & safety); or equivalent. Full understanding of and the ability to apply established principles, theories, and concepts of industrial hygiene and hazard risk assessment. Minimum of ten years operational skills in a laboratory & production environment. Knowledge of laboratory and process equipment and current Good Manufacturing Practices. Working knowledge of state and federal regulations pertaining to occupational health and safety. Excellent organizational, communication, and problem-solving skills. Brief Job Description To monitor activities and operations in Framingham facilities to ensure compliance with all applicable occupational health and safety regulations and corporate policies. Provide overall management and guidance to supervisors and employees at all Framingham facilities. Advise and assist operational supervisors/managers on occupational health and safety aspects of their operations. Train employees and supervisors/managers in the areas of occupational health and safety. Perform and document site-specific internal audits and inspections to ensure compliance with corporate policies and procedures. -------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:10:28 -0400 From: "Cohen, Barry" Subject: Employment Opp (More Info) DO NOT REPLY TO THE LIST =================================== Please respond to: Beverly Gaal Manager, Corporate Health & Safety Genzyme Corporation Metro West Place Framingham, MA 01701 (508) 270-2102 bgaal@genzyme.com Employment Opportunity Site Manager, Health & Safety Department Genzyme Corporation 76 New York Avenue Framingham, MA 01701 Corporation Overview Founded in 1981, Genzyme Corporation is a healthcare products company that focuses on developing and providing innovative solutions to major unresolved medical needs. The Corporation is organized into four primary business areas-- biotherapeutics, surgical products, diagnostic products & services, and pharmaceuticals and fine chemicals. The corporation's international headquarters are located in Cambridge, Massachusetts, with production and research facilities in Boston, Cambridge and Framingham, Massachusetts. Internationally, the corporation is located in Maidstone and Haverhill, England; Russelsheim Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland and Japan. The Company currently employs approximately 3500 people worldwide. Minimum Job Requirements Bachelor of Science in a related field (natural sciences, industrial hygiene, occupational health & safety); or equivalent. Full understanding of and the ability to apply established principles, theories, and concepts of industrial hygiene and hazard risk assessment. Minimum of ten years operational skills in a laboratory & production environment. Knowledge of laboratory and process equipment and current Good Manufacturing Practices. Working knowledge of state and federal regulations pertaining to occupational health and safety. Excellent organizational, communication, and problem-solving skills. Brief Job Description To monitor activities and operations in Framingham facilities to ensure compliance with all applicable occupational health and safety regulations and corporate policies. Provide overall management and guidance to supervisors and employees at all Framingham facilities. Advise and assist operational supervisors/managers on occupational health and safety aspects of their operations. Train employees and supervisors/managers in the areas of occupational health and safety. Perform and document site-specific internal audits and inspections to ensure compliance with corporate policies and procedures. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 19:14:04 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) In-Reply-To: <735d5065.250395d4@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As I'm no longer representing an august institution, I'll abandon decorum and opine that the sender is unbound by burdens of fact, rational thought, or much else but unfiltered emotion (and apparently a very large chip on his shoulder). I thought the updates got a little thick, and a blow-by-blow wasn't necessary, but the incident itself is of value. Of course, we must always be careful about speculating before we possess facts - we can leave that to the media... I decided not to jump into the fray that Marty was starting about a possibly inflated injury count, but what the heck... After 12 years in one form of EMS or another, I can say with certainty that many people we assess, treat, and transport have neither urgent nor emergent conditions. Nonetheless, the laws that set up 9-1-1 allows the user to define "emergency" and public-safety providers are victims of their own success. Add to this that most administrators (including those in schools) are EXTREMELY reluctant to take responsibility for one of their kids not going to the hospitals, and you have a common result: lots of unnecessary ambulance transports and ER visits. I have no idea what type of injuries there were in the lab, but if a bus running over a curb and jostling its riders can result in ambulance transports - requested by the bus company, anything can. Unlike bus incidents, where golddigging is common, I'm guessing we didn't have any fortune hunters among the students (is this naive?). While I'm at it, a word or two about lawyers. I'd say that, on average, 50% of what I and my fellow medics did on a typical call (especially if it involved a low-speed motor-vehicle collision) was not medically necessary - I called it "treating the lawyers." Like most of the public, I do not hold the legal profession in high esteem. I think they have the power that few other professions do: to generate additional business merely by their presence. That said, whether it's ultimately fear of litigation, fear of fines, fear of "doing the wrong thing" in general, or just a desire to improve, our legal system has forced many service providers, EMS among the most notable, to standardize, justify, and better document the services they provide. Does anyone think most of their employers would even have EH&S departments if they didn't have to? In other words, and I can't believe I'm giving credit to litigators in a public forum, liability has forced many people, including those in labs, to clean up their acts. Does it get excessive, absolutely? Is it an ill wind? Nope. Sorry for the soapbox - amazing what a little more time on one's hands can lead to... JNR > This is not an endorsement for careless (or hazardous) lab procedures, but > let's recognize that more mishaps are likely in the Chemistry Lab than the > English classroom. > > Marty is absolutely correct on SEVERAL points and this persistent, wanna be > lawyer, JAMES A. KAUFMAN, is feeding the bureaucratic and administrative > scare frenzy by gleefully advertising this accident (He had his ominous, > unbiased announcements/warnings on 2 lists before the "smoke" cleared But > of course, that's how he hopes to make a living!). Because of attitudes > like JAK's, his scare tactics, with willing help from the American Bar > Association, our children are being trained, by default, to be victims at > the drop of a hat, wherever and whenever the opportunity presents itself. > > The entire methanol mishap is just that, a mishap. (Plus, think of the > teaching points in just the mishap itself.) It SHOULD NOT become a > "federal case", but no suck luck, thanks to JAK and his ilk (I'll bet a > dollar to a doughnut, JAK has already alerted 6.022 X 10^23 lawyers.). > > The more labs we do, the more we NEED (to pay) JAK. If we don't > pay-up/enlist, we have no excuse because we were warned of the dangers, > with examples, by JAK . Woe be unto us! > > Bob Venner > Virginia Beach VA >> > Jeff Rubin jrubin@mail.utexas.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 01:03:33 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) In-Reply-To: <199909060009.TAA24352@saluki-mailsmtp.siu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" I was going to wade in with a great discourse, but I can scarcely top Jeff Rubin's comments; I will add some words of my own. First, JK's passion is safety and not support of ambulance chasers. No sense impugning his motives. 2nd, we do learn from accidents, but still better not to have them. The mishap with the methanol experiment was undoubtedly preventible. The glass near eyes certainly was preventable if all were wearing goggles or safety glasses. 3rd, An excuse is usually, "It was just an accident". But if we examine closely, we can usually see a near miss which can warn us of a potential accident, and thus prevent it. (Kudos to Jay Young for that insight). 4th, I agree totally about the excess of possibly injured people taken to ER's. It does little to help them and fuels chem phobia, but not sure what can be done about it. PS: For a lesson from today's headlines: The young women's soccer (I think) team who sustained injuries when a plane hit turbulence when many were tossed to the ceiling or across the aisle. I'm sure the Captain had advised all to wear seat belts when seated, but they neglected to follow that advice. In the newscasts none of the young women took responsibility for their injuries. At 07:14 PM 9/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >As I'm no longer representing an august institution, I'll abandon decorum >and opine that the sender is unbound by burdens of fact, rational thought, >or much else but unfiltered emotion (and apparently a very large chip on >his shoulder). I thought the updates got a little thick, and a >blow-by-blow wasn't necessary, but the incident itself is of value. Of >course, we must always be careful about speculating before we possess facts >- we can leave that to the media... > >I decided not to jump into the fray that Marty was starting about a >possibly inflated injury count, but what the heck... After 12 years in one >form of EMS or another, I can say with certainty that many people we >assess, treat, and transport have neither urgent nor emergent conditions. >Nonetheless, the laws that set up 9-1-1 allows the user to define >"emergency" and public-safety providers are victims of their own success. >Add to this that most administrators (including those in schools) are >EXTREMELY reluctant to take responsibility for one of their kids not going >to the hospitals, and you have a common result: lots of unnecessary >ambulance transports and ER visits. I have no idea what type of injuries >there were in the lab, but if a bus running over a curb and jostling its >riders can result in ambulance transports - requested by the bus company, >anything can. Unlike bus incidents, where golddigging is common, I'm >guessing we didn't have any fortune hunters among the students (is this >naive?). > >While I'm at it, a word or two about lawyers. I'd say that, on average, >50% of what I and my fellow medics did on a typical call (especially if it >involved a low-speed motor-vehicle collision) was not medically necessary - >I called it "treating the lawyers." Like most of the public, I do not hold >the legal profession in high esteem. I think they have the power that few >other professions do: to generate additional business merely by their >presence. That said, whether it's ultimately fear of litigation, fear of >fines, fear of "doing the wrong thing" in general, or just a desire to >improve, our legal system has forced many service providers, EMS among the >most notable, to standardize, justify, and better document the services >they provide. Does anyone think most of their employers would even have >EH&S departments if they didn't have to? In other words, and I can't >believe I'm giving credit to litigators in a public forum, liability has >forced many people, including those in labs, to clean up their acts. Does >it get excessive, absolutely? Is it an ill wind? Nope. > >Sorry for the soapbox - amazing what a little more time on one's hands can >lead to... > >JNR > >> This is not an endorsement for careless (or hazardous) lab procedures, but >> let's recognize that more mishaps are likely in the Chemistry Lab than the >> English classroom. >> >> Marty is absolutely correct on SEVERAL points and this persistent, wanna be >> lawyer, JAMES A. KAUFMAN, is feeding the bureaucratic and administrative >> scare frenzy by gleefully advertising this accident (He had his ominous, >> unbiased announcements/warnings on 2 lists before the "smoke" cleared But >> of course, that's how he hopes to make a living!). Because of attitudes >> like JAK's, his scare tactics, with willing help from the American Bar >> Association, our children are being trained, by default, to be victims at >> the drop of a hat, wherever and whenever the opportunity presents itself. >> >> The entire methanol mishap is just that, a mishap. (Plus, think of the >> teaching points in just the mishap itself.) It SHOULD NOT become a >> "federal case", but no suck luck, thanks to JAK and his ilk (I'll bet a >> dollar to a doughnut, JAK has already alerted 6.022 X 10^23 lawyers.). >> >> The more labs we do, the more we NEED (to pay) JAK. If we don't >> pay-up/enlist, we have no excuse because we were warned of the dangers, >> with examples, by JAK . Woe be unto us! >> >> Bob Venner >> Virginia Beach VA >> >> >Jeff Rubin >jrubin@mail.utexas.edu > Mary Ann Mary Ann Solstad, CIH 16 Pequot Rd Marblehead, MA 01945-1202 tel 781-631-4748, FAX 781-631-1832 outmsolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:25:53 -0400 Reply-To: "edmiston@bluffton.edu" Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Michael Edmiston Organization: Bluffton College Subject: Re: Safety inspection checklists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff Rubin says: Dear Fellow NACHO-ites, PLEASE do not send attachments directly to the list. Is there a good reason for this request? Of course I don't want all kinds of junk attachments, but the recent attachments were requested by some, they came across (to me) just fine, I was glad to receive them. Is there some problem I'm missing here? Michael D. Edmiston, Ph.D. Phone/voice-mail: 419-358-3270 Professor of Chemistry & Physics FAX: 419-358-3323 Chairman, Science Department E-Mail edmiston@bluffton.edu Bluffton College 280 West College Avenue Bluffton, OH 45817 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:23:24 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "David C. Finster" Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) In-Reply-To: <199909060009.TAA24352@saluki-mailsmtp.siu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1207948237==_.ALT" --=====================_1207948237==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks to Jeff Rubin, Mary Ann Solstad, and Linda Swihart for writing three good responses to the methonal/JAK-bashing post. Saved me the time! Dave ******************************* David C. Finster Professor and Chair Department of Chemistry University Chemical Hygiene Officer Wittenberg University --=====================_1207948237==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Thanks to Jeff Rubin, Mary Ann Solstad, and Linda Swihart for writing three good responses to the methonal/JAK-bashing post.  Saved me the time!

Dave
*******************************
David C. Finster
Professor and Chair
Department of Chemistry
University Chemical Hygiene Officer
Wittenberg University

 --=====================_1207948237==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:19:56 -0500 Reply-To: swihart@purdue.edu Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: L A Swihart Organization: Purdue University Subject: attachments not good MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Edmiston wrote: >> Jeff Rubin says: >> >> Dear Fellow NACHO-ites, >> >> PLEASE do not send attachments directly to the list. > Is there a good reason for this request? Of course I don't want all > kinds of junk attachments, but the recent attachments were requested by > some, they came across (to me) just fine, I was glad to receive them. > Is there some problem I'm missing here? Yup, and it's a good time to run it past everybody again. 1) Attachments are handled VERY badly by some people's email programs, to the point of crashing the individual's email program and causing loss of saved messages. This is unfortunate, doesn't actually have to be this way, but preventing it would require that every receiver have a perfect email program and every sender know what he's/she's doing (as re encoding of attached messages). Many people do not have these options. 2) less important reason -- Attachments are not handled at all well by the listserv software. A small attachment (e.g. a signature file) can introduce 4 pages of gobbledy-gook into the list mail archives and/or digest. (I cut these out "by hand" before publishing each monthly digest to the archives pages, and it's a small pain, but a pain.) Fixing this problem would require getting new listserv software and having someone install, configure, and maintain it. This is not an option. This list is available through the cooperation of SIUC and we work with what they've provided. Attachments should be sent to the individual requesting them, or to me if the sender wishes to make them available to the general community via download from a web server. THANKS, Linda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:49:57 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is one of the most outrageous postings I have read in a long while!!! I will not address the personal attacks to Jim as he is a well educated adult who can well defend himself, but the general message underlying this posting is simply crazy!! I am a parent of two young children, and have instructed more lab sections in the last 8 years than I care to tally. Children in elementary and high school, as well as young adults and nontraditional students at the college level, do not have the years of lab expertise and hands on knowledge of chemicals and their possible out of control reactions. That's why they are students and we are educators. Therefore it follows that we must train them to respect chemicals and their hazards as well as teach them how to work with them safely and in a responsible manner. As a parent, you bet I expect the teachers instructing my child to keep him safe. Something as simple as using some shields and making student wear goggles could have save a lot of kids and parents from many anxious moments, not to mention stitches! I fail to see how teaching our children to utilize proper PPE turns them into "victims". Yes, mishaps do happen in the lab. The key is to make sure appropriate safe guards are in place and the risk is out weighed by the educational benefit. How is this different from using car seats to safely restrain and protect a toddler or insisting that all your passengers in your car are buckled up? My son would never dream of riding in a car without his seat belt fastened. Why shouldn't he have the same response to putting on goggles when he goes into a chem lab? It is our responsibility to teach all aspects of lab activities. We should be demonstrating properties of chemicals and chemical reactions as well as the safe way of working with these materials. I'm sure I am not alone when I say, I expect my children to be kept safe at school. Not only do I expect it, but I demand it! I feel this case points out an all too lackadaisical approach to science education in our schools. I've-done- it-this-way-for-30-years-and-no-one-was-hurt kind of attitude. It sickens me! It is our moral and ethical obligations to protect students who trust in us to educate them. I will step down of my high horse now and say that I practice what I preach. :):):):):):):):):):):):) Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. >>> - 9/5/99 5:45 AM >>> Hi CHEMCOM, CHEMEDs, NACHOs, and SAFETYs, I would appreciate hearing what other readers think about having lab accident reports referred to their list and their reaction to Bob's comments. ... Jim Above is my reaction to Bob's comments. I think it is important to post these accidents so we can learn from them ourselves and so we can incorporate others mistakes in our own training sessions. It is invaluable to my mission as a safety educator to utilize real life stories to illustrate my points. Give a lecture and maybe a few catch phrases will stick. Tell a story and it gets retold and retold making the message real to the teller. You have to make training personal to get people to remember it. Janeen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:09:08 -0500 Reply-To: swihart@purdue.edu Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: L A Swihart Organization: Purdue University Subject: done it this way for 30 years.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janeen LaPierre wrote: > > This is one of the most outrageous postings I have > read in a long while!!! --cut-- > I'm sure I am not alone when I say, I expect my children > to be kept safe at school. Not only do I expect it, but > I demand it! I feel this case points out an all too > lackadaisical approach to science education in our schools. > I've-done-it-this-way-for-30-years-and-no-one-was-hurt kind > of attitude. It sickens me! It is our moral and ethical > obligations to protect students who trust in us to educate them. I'm with Janeen! The "done it this way for 30 years..." comment reminds me of a terribly tragic and extremely moving/educational story that Jim tells in some of his seminars. About the HS teacher who for 30 years organized an experience for his/her senior science class several times a year. An educational experience which was widely regarded as a wonderful treat. Near the end of his/her 30 year teaching career, an accident happened. It was an accident that could have happened any one of those previous 29 years, but didn't. It was an accident that could have been prevented by the use of a simple precaution. It claimed the LIFE of a student. $.02, Linda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:21:33 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Patricia DePra Subject: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries I worked for DuPont for 5 years. Their philosophy was (and, I presume, still is) that ALL injuries are preventable. ALL. NO exceptions. Of course, not all accidents are preventable. Accidents happen. But, with the proper PPE, planning, and training, no one gets hurt. I'm sure that you all can think of potential exceptions to the above, and that line of thought led to some pretty animated discussions in a safety meeting or two. In terms of the academic labs, though, it works for me. The toughest part of it, in my opinion, is the training aspect -- making sure that students follow instructions and value safety, *and* making sure that IUm aware of all potential hazards beforehand. Obviously, the instructor wasnUt, or else the injuries wouldnUt have occurred. One of the great benefits of this list is that now any one of us who might have done a demo without a shield knows for certain the risk involved in doing so. A PR question: how do we answer the folks who point at this and say, now *thatUs* why I hate chemistry -- ? Patricia DePra Westfield State College Westfield, MA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:03:18 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: Safety inspection checklists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Julie, I tried to send it to you but I get a message undeliverable. Send my your real address and I'll send you the material. -----Original Message----- From: Julie O'Brien [mailto:afn35210@AFN.ORG] Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 8:54 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Safety inspection checklists Do any of you use checklists to perform safety inspections? I am collecting different types of checklists which are available. If you have one which you think works well, could you send or fax a copy to me? If you do not use checklists, what type of documentation do you use? Our safety team performs monthly inspections. We are trying to develop a non-regulatory system for our safety team inspections. (We already have another group who performs routine regulatory inspections.) We would like the format to be simple enough that very little additional training would be required. Thanks for your suggestions! Julie O'Brien Archimica (Florida) PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 (work) 352-373-7503 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:21:26 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Gillian Gardner Subject: Re: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries In-Reply-To: <99090712213367@foma.wsc.mass.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I guess the best way to counter that is to point out all the good things that have come as a result of chemistry and to discuss that, most likely, the chemicals weren't at fault, the container was. Gillian Gardner On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Patricia DePra wrote: > > A PR question: how do we answer the folks who point at this and > say, now *thatUs* why I hate chemistry -- ? > > Patricia DePra > Westfield State College > Westfield, MA > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:03:50 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Rebecca Levins, RSR Corporation" Subject: Re: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BEF93B.7237D180" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BEF93B.7237D180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A PR question: how do we answer the folks who point at this and say, now *that's* why I hate chemistry -- ? This incident is the first time I have heard that reason for hating = chemistry. (and I have heard a lot of reasons) I think the individual = who stated it was taking the class for the second time, and during the = first year he took it there were no accidents.=20 The basic premise is 'because it's dangerous': could it be this is just = an excuse instead of a real reason. If that were really true, there are = a number of activities that would not be as popular. Sports is one of = them- there are more injuries from high school football/basketball than = from high school chemistry. The risk factor with speeding is greater = also (or even just plain driving). Remember, high risk activities seem = to appeal to youth.=20 But excuse or not it may have to be dealt with. Possible PR: We don't think about the risk involved in day to day chemicals we handle = that are of similar risk as what was involved with the experiment; = gasoline, bleach and other household cleaners, pesticides, natural gas, = paints, nail polish remover, etc. Chemistry teaches respect of these as = well as 'lab chemicals'. It teaches what can be mixed and why and what = precautions to use. I am a lot more careful of my home "chemicals" now than I used to be. I = am also more aware and careful than many of my 'non-chemist' friends who = think if it is sold over-the-counter it is safe. Best regards, Rebecca Levins Environmental, Health & Safety Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:49:55 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" One bit we use to tell our chemical operators who work in the plant, with much higher amounts of material than lab quantities: "The most dangerous part of your day is driving to work in the morning." I saw the statistic years ago; it compared person-hours at each activity. Chemical plants are actually kind of safe. The OSHA site that lists the most hazardous has Lowes at the top. (Lowes is a home products store- pipe, wood, etc as well as tools and other items. Actually nice stores. Apparently they have high accident rates.) The best answer is to simply point out the products of chemical manufacture- all the way from pens to cars to drugs. Life is chemistry. There are hazards to everything- we need to know how to protect ourselves and others. Which is what this group is all about! "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 > -----Original Message----- > From: rsrrdl@onramp.net [mailto:rsrrdl@onramp.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 15:04 > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: RE: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and > injuries > > A PR question: how do we answer the folks who point at this and > say, now *that's* why I hate chemistry -- ? > > This incident is the first time I have heard that reason for hating > chemistry. (and I have heard a lot of reasons) I think the individual who > stated it was taking the class for the second time, and during the first > year he took it there were no accidents. > > The basic premise is 'because it's dangerous': could it be this is just an > excuse instead of a real reason. If that were really true, there are a > number of activities that would not be as popular. Sports is one of them- > there are more injuries from high school football/basketball than from > high school chemistry. The risk factor with speeding is greater also (or > even just plain driving). Remember, high risk activities seem to appeal to > youth. > > But excuse or not it may have to be dealt with. > > Possible PR: > We don't think about the risk involved in day to day chemicals we handle > that are of similar risk as what was involved with the experiment; > gasoline, bleach and other household cleaners, pesticides, natural gas, > paints, nail polish remover, etc. Chemistry teaches respect of these as > well as 'lab chemicals'. It teaches what can be mixed and why and what > precautions to use. > > I am a lot more careful of my home "chemicals" now than I used to be. I am > also more aware and careful than many of my 'non-chemist' friends who > think if it is sold over-the-counter it is safe. > > Best regards, > > Rebecca Levins > Environmental, Health & Safety Compliance Specialist > RSR Corporation > Dallas, Texas > RSRrdl@onramp.net > (214) 583-0245 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:31:31 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/7/99 12:23:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pdepra@FOMA.WSC.MASS.EDU writes: << A PR question: how do we answer the folks who point at this and say, now *thatUs* why I hate chemistry -- >> Hi NACHOs, Ask them if they hate driving each time they read about the 45,000 deaths each year. Ask them if they hate swimming each time they hear about the 3,000 drownings. Etc.... Jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:35:05 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/7/99 1:22:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gardner@LCLARK.EDU writes: << I guess the best way to counter that is to point out all the good things that have come as a result of chemistry and to discuss that, most likely, the chemicals weren't at fault, the container was. >> Hi NACHOs, The container? Sorry but this sounds a little like pointing the finger at the car in the car accident. How about the driver? The chemicals were not at fault.... (and, not to be unkind) but the teacher likely did some very unreasonable things. ... Jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:58:41 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have seen some really stupid things done in the lab and in the class before, and have learned and seen others learn from the experience, but most all the people I knew who "hated" chemistry just couldn't do math. Ben > ---------- > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:27:26 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Brian Olson Subject: Your chance to participate in "Safety Trends" talk. Comments: To: SAFETY@LIST.UVM.EDU, radsafe@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Later this month I will be facilitating a talk for our local (Madison, WI) Safety Council. The name of the talk is "Trends in Safety for the New Millennium". We will discuss the many enhancements/improvements which have come to the safety field in the last part of this century, but will be focusing most of the allotted time on what the future holds for the field in the areas of compliance, communication, and training. To show how 'networking' has become an important tool lately, I want to share the thoughts of those on the SAFETY, LABSAFE, & RADSAFE mail-lists (regarding the scope of this talk). So...what do you feel the greatest trends in Safety will be for the next ten years? I will omit your name if you wish. Send me an email! As always, thanks for your input. Brian Olson Manager, EH&S Promega Corp (biotech co.) Madison, WI 53711 bolson@promega.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:59:02 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Spare Subject: Re: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's certainly true for those who hate P.Chem!!! Nick Spare -----Original Message----- From: Greene, Ben To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 2:15 PM Subject: Re: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries most all the people I knew who "hated" chemistry just couldn't do math. > >Ben >> ---------- >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:50:16 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Erik Talley Subject: New ACS Chemical Health and Safety WebSite Comments: To: "safety@uvmvm.uvm.edu" , "dchas-l@siu.edu" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain First, sorry for any multiple e-mails you might get with this message as I'm sending it to several lists of interest... The Division of Chemical Health and Safety of the American Chemical Society has updated it's website. Please take a few minutes to review the new information available and feel free to make any comments/suggestions using the contact button at the bottom of each page. There are several new additions to this website including an archives section with all past meeting abstracts in a searchable database. Since we've decided to go by the acronym 'CHAS' for our division, we will be changing the URL for our division from http://dchas.cehs.siu.edu to http://chas.cehs.siu.edu/. Both URL's are completely functional and will be functional for the foreseeable future, but we are asking that you begin switching links you may have to the 'chas' url. Lastly, the Division is now accepting abstracts for the Spring national meeting in San Francisco. If you go to our website and then click on "meetings," you'll see information about on-line abstract submittal information. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Thanks, Erik _______________________________________ Erik Talley, Assistant Director Center for Environmental Health and Safety Southern Illinois University 1325 Radio Drive Carbondale, IL 62901-6898 erik@cehs.siu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:36:24 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Neal Langerman Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS Comments: To: occ-env-med-l@list.mc.duke.edu, SAFETY@LIST.UVM.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I am organizing a symposium on Chemical Spills for the Spring American Chemical Society meeting in San Francisco.  The symposium will (most likely) be on Monday or Tuesday, March 26 - 30, 2000.  The symposium will feature two speakers from large universities who will address the need to have or not have a formal, on-site chemical response team.  At least one speaker will address response procedures, and then a number of speakers will address spills which have happened and the lessons learned.   I am now formally requesting papers on procedures and or lessons learned.

Abstracts can now be submitted to the Division of Chemical Health and Safety website at

 http://chas.cehs.siu.edu/

Some of the lessons learned papers may be presented in a poster session.  Oral presentations are 20 minutes, but the Lessons Learned may be shortened to 10 minutes, if we get sufficient submittals.

Now, the BAD NEWS!!!   The deadline for abstracts is October 22.  The abstract MUST be filed electronically.  If you are considering doing a presentation please send me an email.  If you would like more information, also contact me.

This session is expected to be large.  The more input we get, the better it will be.

I expect this to be an exciting session.  My plans are to gather all of the Lessons Learned papers into one large paper to be published in the Journal of Chemical Health and Safety.  So ...  this is a real chance to talk about some of the spills which have happened and to share what you learned with the rest of us.

Thanks

Neal

******************************************************************
NEAL LANGERMAN
Advanced Chemical Safety
8909 Complex Dr. Ste C
San Diego CA 92123
(858) 874 5577  (858) 874 8239 (FAX)
My telephone will forward to my cell phone and then my voice mail. 

"Your Single Source for Preventing Safety, Health and
Environmental Insults!"


**********************************************************************
========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 07:30:12 -0300 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Aziz M. Abu-khalaf" Subject: Safety Journals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would like to know the names and addresses of Journals on Safety. Any help is appreciated. thanks. **************************************************************************** ******* Aziz M. Abu-Khalaf ***** Tel: 00966 1 4676894 Chemical Engineering Department ***** Fax: 00966 1 4678770 King Saud University ***** E-mail: amkhalaf@ksu.edu.sa PO Box 800 ***** Riyadh 11421, Saudi Arabia ***** **************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:36:31 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: h & jg stormking Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having been a participant in JK's class on Safety, I am grateful for his insight into safety. As has been said by many in this group, true accidents may not be preventable, but many lab incidents are not true accidents and the injuries caused are almost always preventable if the proper engineering/administrative/and-or PPE is utilized. As to the statement about lawyers...yes many will utilize any incident to fill their coffers. However, some are truly interested in justice. Certainly a family who loses a loved one to a preventable accident (e.g. one which was caused by a condition obvious to the most casual observer) is as entitled to legal recourse as a person who loses a loved one to a drunk driving accident (same e.g.). If we as laboratory professionals do not take the lead in preventing accidents, who will? Thanks! Helen Gerhard ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:21:28 -0300 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Aziz M. Abu-khalaf" Subject: crude oil spill Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, I would like to know your experience in dealing with crude oil spillage on the floor of the lab and under the tables and benches. many thanks. **************************************************************************** ******* Aziz M. Abu-Khalaf ***** Tel: 00966 1 4676894 Chemical Engineering Department ***** Fax: 00966 1 4678770 King Saud University ***** E-mail: amkhalaf@ksu.edu.sa PO Box 800 ***** Riyadh 11421, Saudi Arabia ***** **************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 07:09:09 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/7/99 12:23:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pdepra@FOMA.WSC.MASS.EDU writes: << Of course, not all accidents are preventable. >> Hi NACHOs, I believe DuPont makes a distinction between preventable and prevented. They work from the core belief that all accident are preventable. Not all accidents are prevented. But they could have been. ... Jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:33:37 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Sally Cooper Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) Comments: To: Labsafe@AOL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) Author: Non-HP-Labsafe (Labsafe@AOL.COM) at HP-Corvallis,mimegw01 Date: 09/05/1999 2:45 AM Hi CHEMCOM, CHEMEDs, NACHOs, and SAFETYs, I would appreciate hearing what other readers think about having lab accident reports referred to their list and their reaction to Bob's comments. ... Jim In a message dated 9/3/99 12:05:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU writes: << Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:54:00 -0400 From: Bob Venner Subject: Methanol Demo <> To answer Jim's questions, lab accident reports should be referred to the list, that is one of the ways we learn from the errors of others. And my reaction to Bob's comments, he is full of BS. Sally Cooper ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:16:56 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" While I will agree with most of the postings regarding the original message, I do believe there is one point that is being overlooked. Is posting little bits of information (which has not been verified as fact rather than conjecture) as they are obtained a "reasonable and prudent" thing to do? Or would it be better to wait until a bit of the smoke has cleared and the actual facts can be sifted out? As someone who is also involved in EMS, I know we all want to know as much info as soon as possible. That's human nature. However, I think that one should wait and make sure that the facts are all in before making a post. That way we won't have the mix ups over whether it was lit or not, etc. And, as a parent, I can understand the concern for our children. However, if the parents are local, they can get updates from the media, etc. Those of us who are spead out across the US really don't need the info immediately. After the dust settles is usually okay. I seriously doubt that another "accident" will occur under exactly the same circumstances before the facts can be gathered, verified and distributed. Just my two cents. Please keep flames private, as I don't want to bog down the list. Tammy Tayman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:29:57 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I respectfully disagree. I'd like to see as much info as possible as soon as possible. Early reports should be noted as such- preliminary or whatever. I guess I don't trust the spin-meisters! "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Tayman, Tammy [mailto:ttayman@MC.CC.MD.US] Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 12:17 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) While I will agree with most of the postings regarding the original message, I do believe there is one point that is being overlooked. Is posting little bits of information (which has not been verified as fact rather than conjecture) as they are obtained a "reasonable and prudent" thing to do? Or would it be better to wait until a bit of the smoke has cleared and the actual facts can be sifted out? As someone who is also involved in EMS, I know we all want to know as much info as soon as possible. That's human nature. However, I think that one should wait and make sure that the facts are all in before making a post. That way we won't have the mix ups over whether it was lit or not, etc. And, as a parent, I can understand the concern for our children. However, if the parents are local, they can get updates from the media, etc. Those of us who are spead out across the US really don't need the info immediately. After the dust settles is usually okay. I seriously doubt that another "accident" will occur under exactly the same circumstances before the facts can be gathered, verified and distributed. Just my two cents. Please keep flames private, as I don't want to bog down the list. Tammy Tayman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:01:11 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Carolyn S. Jaussi" Subject: Venetian turpentine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Can anyone tell me more about "venetian" turpentine? In a recent safety inspection an old bottle was found with a generic lab label. I need to know proper disposal. Thanks! *************************************************************** Carolyn S. Jaussi Biologist, CHO USDA ARS FRRL Utah State University 700 N 1100 E Logan UT 84322-6300 Phone: (435)-797-3222 FAX: (435)-797-3075 Email: csjaussi@cc.usu.edu *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:37:38 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "L. James Stock III" <34EMQ6K@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Subject: Re: Venetian turpentine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Venice Turpentine???????? Merck Index, Eleventh Edition, page 9851, entry no. 9847, Venice Turpentine or Larch turpentine is oleoresin from Larix decidua Mill. Pinacea. Habit. Volatile oil, resin. Use in light microscopy. Yellow, sometimes greenish, limpid( Characterized by transparent clearness, (I had to look that one up)), tenacious, thick liquid, pleasant aromatic odor, hot pungent, somewhat bitter taste, Becomes hard and brittle upon prolonged exposure to air. Insoluble in water, soluble in glacial acetic acid, amyl alcohol, acetone, caustic alkalies, slowly but freely soluble in alcohol Use: As clearing agent and mounting medium for light microscopy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:30:02 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Spare Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem I find with early reports on accidents involving chemicals are that they are often provided by well-meaning people who are eminently unqualified to report such matters. For example, the very first mention of the recent Bakersfield incident which has been under such high scrutiny by this list was from a CHP officer who understood that "there was a 5 gallon bottle of methane in the lab which may have contributed (to the explosion)." Now, if my kid were at the high school in question, I would have been somewhat more concerned about his proximity to an explosion caused by (presumably) a large, pressurized cylinder of a highly flammable gas than one caused by (as it turned out) 2 ml of methanol in any type of container. On the other end of the spectrum, I will also for ever remember a TV reporter (on a normal day, the channel's legal expert) pressed into service to report on the Northridge earthquake. He was standing outside the chem dept. at Cal. State Northridge, smoke and flames billowing from several smashed windows dramatically pointing out that "chemicals such as lithium bromide" were burning inside. Overall, while immediate reports do have their place, when it comes to chemicals, I prefer to wait until I hear from someone who knows what they're talking about. My opinion only etc. etc. Nick Spare Pilot Chemical -----Original Message----- From: Robert Burns To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 9:34 AM Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) >I respectfully disagree. I'd like to see as much info as possible as soon >as possible. Early reports should be noted as such- preliminary or >whatever. I guess I don't trust the spin-meisters! > >"Semper Adventurus!" > >Robert L. Burns >Group Leader, R&D >Ruetgers Organics Corporation >Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com >Phone 814 231 9214 > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:48:06 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Madelyn Miller Subject: Re: Venetian turpentine In-Reply-To: <199909081731.MAA53864@saluki-mailsmtp.siu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Greetings, Yes, this is another tangent note but I am curious. Here at CMU I dispose of most all liquid waste as if they are hazardous because they cannot go into a dumpster (our company won't allow liquids) and I feel uncomfortable pouring down the drain or onto the ground. What do you do? Madelyn On Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:37:38 -0500 "L. James Stock III" <34EMQ6K@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> wrote: > Venice Turpentine???????? Merck Index, Eleventh Edition, page 9851, entry > no. 9847, Venice Turpentine or Larch turpentine is oleoresin from Larix > decidua Mill. Pinacea. Habit. > Volatile oil, resin. Use in light microscopy. Yellow, sometimes greenish, > limpid( Characterized by transparent clearness, (I had to look that one > up)), tenacious, thick liquid, pleasant aromatic odor, hot pungent, > somewhat bitter taste, Becomes hard and brittle upon prolonged exposure > to air. Insoluble in water, soluble in glacial acetic acid, amyl alcohol, > acetone, caustic alkalies, slowly but freely soluble in alcohol > Use: As clearing agent and mounting medium for light microscopy ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Director & Chemical Hygiene Officer Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:54:43 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Madelyn Miller Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) In-Reply-To: <37D5E7CF.4ED82A18@pcisys.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Greetings, I feel uncomfortable with the defense of Jim's honor, flame war. Actually I am uncomfortable with all flame wars no matter who is right. Let us keep it kind. My two cents Madelyn ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Director & Chemical Hygiene Officer Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:01:12 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Dewey Williams Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Verified information only should be posted. When this first hit the email, there was a lot of unverified, rumorous and possibly derogatory information being spread. The first thing I saw was a report about an explosion that involved a 5-gallon bottle of METHANE! False information can be harmful to the moral and reputation of the person(s) involved. How would you feel about an accident happening on YOUR watch and all your associates heard misleading and false reports. At 9/8/1999 -0700, you wrote: >Hi CHEMCOM, CHEMEDs, NACHOs, and SAFETYs, >I would appreciate hearing what other readers think about having lab accident >reports referred to their list and their reaction to Bob's comments. ... Jim Dewey Williams - Lab Manager mailto:williams@email.uncc.edu UNC-Charlotte Chemistry Dept. http://www.chem.uncc.edu "These are my ideas and no one else will claim them." "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:05:11 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Subject: Initial News Reports Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NJSpare@PILOTCHEMICAL.COM writes: >The problem I find with early reports on accidents involving chemicals are >that they are often provided by well-meaning people who are eminently >unqualified to report such matters. Yeah, they're called "The Media", and like the rest of us, they have their faults and do make mistakes. >For example, the very first mention of >the recent Bakersfield incident which has been under such high scrutiny by >this list was from a CHP officer who understood that "there was a 5 gallon >bottle of methane in the lab which may have contributed (to the >explosion)." Sorry, that's what the radio said. > >Overall, while immediate reports do have their place, when it comes to >chemicals, I prefer to wait until I hear from someone who knows what >they're >talking about. Are we all to turn off our radios and televisions, and remain silent until 'the official reports" are issued after months of investigation? Is the real issue here actually the many times visited "I have too much email"? If not, I don't agree there is a problem. > Teresa R. Robertson CSUB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:33:49 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Carolyn S. Jaussi" Subject: Re: Venetian turpentine In-Reply-To: <199909081731.MAA53864@saluki-mailsmtp.siu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" THANKS! It is now in the flammables cabinet. Our host institution (USU) EH&S office will pick it up as hazardous waste. CSJ At 01:37 PM 9/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >Venice Turpentine???????? Merck Index, Eleventh Edition, page 9851, entry >no. 9847, Venice Turpentine or Larch turpentine is oleoresin from Larix >decidua Mill. Pinacea. Habit. >Volatile oil, resin. Use in light microscopy. Yellow, sometimes greenish, >limpid( Characterized by transparent clearness, (I had to look that one >up)), tenacious, thick liquid, pleasant aromatic odor, hot pungent, >somewhat bitter taste, Becomes hard and brittle upon prolonged exposure >to air. Insoluble in water, soluble in glacial acetic acid, amyl alcohol, >acetone, caustic alkalies, slowly but freely soluble in alcohol >Use: As clearing agent and mounting medium for light microscopy > *************************************************************** Carolyn S. Jaussi Biologist, CHO USDA ARS FRRL Utah State University 700 N 1100 E Logan UT 84322-6300 Phone: (435)-797-3222 FAX: (435)-797-3075 Email: csjaussi@cc.usu.edu *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:12:15 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Barbara Klein Organization: clarke college Subject: new CHO with questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone. I am the new CHO at Clarke college. Members of the biology dept have the following questions. Can you help me out? What are the opinions on requiring eye protection in an anatomy lab or any lab where there is dissection and preservatives? Secondly, a member of the dept would like to use Lysol to clean up blood. Most dept members don't think this is wise. Opinions? thanks barb klein ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:59:29 -0400 Reply-To: "edmiston@bluffton.edu" Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Michael Edmiston Organization: Bluffton College Subject: Re: new CHO with questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We require that our anatomy students wear safety glasses with side shields for dissection. Although there is some chance of something "squirting," we think this is minor and therefore we do not require splash goggles. The reason for the safety glasses is because they're using sharp instruments. Even if students were well behaved, we'd probably require that. But worse, they often get talking to each other, and some people just can't talk without waving their hands (and scalpels) around. They also forget they have sharp things in their hands when they reach up to scratch their nose, etc. Can't answer the blood question. We have essentially eliminated handling of blood in our biology labs because the prudent and required precautions seem to outweigh the educational benefit. Our main regret is not the loss of biology info or experience... rather, that we're only giving verbal rather than hands-on exposure to all the precautions in dealing with blood or other body fluids. Michael D. Edmiston, Ph.D. Phone/voice-mail: 419-358-3270 Professor of Chemistry & Physics FAX: 419-358-3323 Chairman, Science Department E-Mail edmiston@bluffton.edu Bluffton College 280 West College Avenue Bluffton, OH 45817 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:06:16 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Naomi Kelly Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I concur. Everyone is entitled to her/his opinion, however, when the opinion serves largely to insult or criticize, the message then becomes ineffective. I think Bob's comments would have been much more effective if he had simply stated the problems that might be created by posting a story such as this without having the final facts. This character assassination was not only inappropriate, but quite unprofessional. Having been misquoted and my words twisted by the media on several occasions myself, I have learned to never accept any media release as "totally" factual. However, I see no reason not to release stories of this nature with preliminary information as long as it is noted that it is preliminary. Let's hope that we are all intelligent enough to know that you never accept all the "facts" of an initial news release where there is room for sensationalism and reporters are rushing to print with any bit of information or misinformation. Jim did not release this to his local news media, he distributed the report to lists of people who should understand the difference in preliminary information and the "after the smoke clears" stories that at least should contain more factual information... At 01:54 PM 9/8/99 -0400, Madelyn Miller wrote: >Greetings, >I feel uncomfortable with the defense of Jim's honor, flame war. >Actually I am uncomfortable with all flame wars no matter who is right. >Let us keep it kind. >My two cents >Madelyn > >---------------------- >Madelyn Miller >Director & Chemical Hygiene Officer >Environmental Health & Safety >Carnegie Mellon University >Pittsburgh, PA 15213 Naomi Kelly Environmental Health and Safety Officer Clemson University 261 P&AS Building Clemson, SC 29634-5740 (864)656-7554 Fax (864)656-7630 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:07:42 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I agree. I tend to ignore flamers- they will go away. Most of them just want attention. "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Madelyn Miller [mailto:mmiller@ANDREW.CMU.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 13:55 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) Greetings, I feel uncomfortable with the defense of Jim's honor, flame war. Actually I am uncomfortable with all flame wars no matter who is right. Let us keep it kind. My two cents Madelyn ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Director & Chemical Hygiene Officer Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:15:25 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries In-Reply-To: <557A869D0907D31195D000508B085CD20FF0B3@ROCMAIL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:49 PM 9/7/99 -0400, you wrote: >One bit we use to tell our chemical operators who work in the plant, with >much higher amounts of material than lab quantities: > >"The most dangerous part of your day is driving to work in the morning." > >I saw the statistic years ago; it compared person-hours at each activity. >Chemical plants are actually kind of safe. Life is chemistry. There are >hazards to everything- we need to know how to protect ourselves and others. >Which is what this group is all about! > >"Semper Adventurus!" > >Robert L. Burns >Group Leader, R&D >Ruetgers Organics Corporation >Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com >Phone 814 231 9214 > I too have used that "chemical plants have a 1st class safety record", statement. But I believe a good deal of that record is driven by the zero-tolerance safety culture of the biggies, such as DuPont and Dow. You do it right or you don't do it at all. Mary Ann > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rsrrdl@onramp.net [mailto:rsrrdl@onramp.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 15:04 >> To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >> Subject: RE: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and >> injuries >> >> A PR question: how do we answer the folks who point at this and >> say, now *that's* why I hate chemistry -- ? >> >> This incident is the first time I have heard that reason for hating >> chemistry. (and I have heard a lot of reasons) I think the individual who >> stated it was taking the class for the second time, and during the first >> year he took it there were no accidents. >> >> The basic premise is 'because it's dangerous': could it be this is just an >> excuse instead of a real reason. If that were really true, there are a >> number of activities that would not be as popular. Sports is one of them- >> there are more injuries from high school football/basketball than from >> high school chemistry. The risk factor with speeding is greater also (or >> even just plain driving). Remember, high risk activities seem to appeal to >> youth. >> >> But excuse or not it may have to be dealt with. >> >> Possible PR: >> We don't think about the risk involved in day to day chemicals we handle >> that are of similar risk as what was involved with the experiment; >> gasoline, bleach and other household cleaners, pesticides, natural gas, >> paints, nail polish remover, etc. Chemistry teaches respect of these as >> well as 'lab chemicals'. It teaches what can be mixed and why and what >> precautions to use. >> >> I am a lot more careful of my home "chemicals" now than I used to be. I am >> also more aware and careful than many of my 'non-chemist' friends who >> think if it is sold over-the-counter it is safe. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Rebecca Levins >> Environmental, Health & Safety Compliance Specialist >> RSR Corporation >> Dallas, Texas >> RSRrdl@onramp.net >> (214) 583-0245 > Mary Ann Solstad, CIH 4 A's of Safety SOLSTAD Health & Safety Evaluations Attitude 16 Pequot Rd, Marblehead, MA 01945 Awareness 781-631-4748 tel, 781-631-1832 FAX Automatic Application Authority Past Chair, DivCHAS, ACS msolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:38:50 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've never worked for the biggies- but the culture is pervasive. "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Mary Ann Solstad [mailto:msolstad@MEDIAONE.NET] Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 15:15 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries At 03:49 PM 9/7/99 -0400, you wrote: >One bit we use to tell our chemical operators who work in the plant, with >much higher amounts of material than lab quantities: > >"The most dangerous part of your day is driving to work in the morning." > >I saw the statistic years ago; it compared person-hours at each activity. >Chemical plants are actually kind of safe. Life is chemistry. There are >hazards to everything- we need to know how to protect ourselves and others. >Which is what this group is all about! > >"Semper Adventurus!" > >Robert L. Burns >Group Leader, R&D >Ruetgers Organics Corporation >Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com >Phone 814 231 9214 > I too have used that "chemical plants have a 1st class safety record", statement. But I believe a good deal of that record is driven by the zero-tolerance safety culture of the biggies, such as DuPont and Dow. You do it right or you don't do it at all. Mary Ann > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rsrrdl@onramp.net [mailto:rsrrdl@onramp.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 15:04 >> To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >> Subject: RE: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and >> injuries >> >> A PR question: how do we answer the folks who point at this and >> say, now *that's* why I hate chemistry -- ? >> >> This incident is the first time I have heard that reason for hating >> chemistry. (and I have heard a lot of reasons) I think the individual who >> stated it was taking the class for the second time, and during the first >> year he took it there were no accidents. >> >> The basic premise is 'because it's dangerous': could it be this is just an >> excuse instead of a real reason. If that were really true, there are a >> number of activities that would not be as popular. Sports is one of them- >> there are more injuries from high school football/basketball than from >> high school chemistry. The risk factor with speeding is greater also (or >> even just plain driving). Remember, high risk activities seem to appeal to >> youth. >> >> But excuse or not it may have to be dealt with. >> >> Possible PR: >> We don't think about the risk involved in day to day chemicals we handle >> that are of similar risk as what was involved with the experiment; >> gasoline, bleach and other household cleaners, pesticides, natural gas, >> paints, nail polish remover, etc. Chemistry teaches respect of these as >> well as 'lab chemicals'. It teaches what can be mixed and why and what >> precautions to use. >> >> I am a lot more careful of my home "chemicals" now than I used to be. I am >> also more aware and careful than many of my 'non-chemist' friends who >> think if it is sold over-the-counter it is safe. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Rebecca Levins >> Environmental, Health & Safety Compliance Specialist >> RSR Corporation >> Dallas, Texas >> RSRrdl@onramp.net >> (214) 583-0245 > Mary Ann Solstad, CIH 4 A's of Safety SOLSTAD Health & Safety Evaluations Attitude 16 Pequot Rd, Marblehead, MA 01945 Awareness 781-631-4748 tel, 781-631-1832 FAX Automatic Application Authority Past Chair, DivCHAS, ACS msolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:01:29 -0400 Reply-To: "edmiston@bluffton.edu" Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Michael Edmiston Organization: Bluffton College Subject: Re: one more bit re: responsibility, accidents, and injuries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I appreciate Lab Safety Workshop, and I appreciate Jim Kaufman's work. I have benefited from his posting here, and from a couple private e-mail exchanges I've had with him. At the same time, I do want to totally discredit the "overall feel" of the message from Bob Venner. By overall feel, I mean the feeling that people can spin things to their own personal advantage. If we think much about this, it's obvious that not putting our own spin on things can be pretty hard to do. Yet, scientists are supposed to do that. What a difficult task. Here's a couple examples: (1) As one of my research interests, and as a source of wonderful independent studies for students, we have developed the ability to measure radon gas in peoples' homes. We also have developed some very inexpensive ways to deal with radon problems. We do all this for local residents at no cost. Hence it is also a public service project. However, sometimes our "customer list" almost dries up. We have stu dents willing to measure and remediate, and no one is asking for our services. Then some local newspaper or other news medium will mention the dangers of radon in the home, and our "customer list" goes through the roof. Now... radon is not a real serious problem around here. Most people have it, but it's not outrageously high. Do I want to go around telling people "You know, you really ought to have your radon checked; it's really dangerous stuff." If there were a few houses around here where the levels truly were highly dangerous, then maybe that would be appropriate. But almost every home we've tested has been in the "gray area." Yes you have radon, yes we can do something about it and perhaps we should, but it's not a real pressing problem. Now, if this were my livelihood, or I were making some extra money from this... how would that change things? (2) Analytical chemists are always pushing detectability limits, and so are the instrument manufacturers. If we have the ability to detect something (like pesticide residue on vegetables) at the ppt level, do we want to start giving the impression that this is a health issue? Turning the ability to detect possible carcinogens at the ppt level into a health issue would probably sell a lot more instruments and put some analytical chemists to work. But is it an ethical thing to do? In summary, I don't think it is out of line to keep asking ourselves where the ethical line is, and which side of it are we on. It seems to me that Jim essentially just did that. Bob accused Jim of crossing the line, and Jim asked us if we agree. I think he has not crossed the line. But I acknowledge this as something we should keep asking. Michael D. Edmiston, Ph.D. Phone/voice-mail: 419-358-3270 Professor of Chemistry & Physics FAX: 419-358-3323 Chairman, Science Department E-Mail edmiston@bluffton.edu Bluffton College 280 West College Avenue Bluffton, OH 45817 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:00:29 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Spare Subject: Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some questions - what sort of policies do companies have with regard to communicating with the media in times of emergencies? Is there a designated spokesperson - if so, who is it?; are there general "no comment" policies; presumably "you'll have to wait till the boss gets back from lunch," etc. is not a real good solution. Is there a course on media communication with respect to the chemical industry available? If so, should the CHO be the person who takes it? Nick Spare ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:01:50 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: new CHO with questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Welcome aboard Barbara. Here at UNE we require our anatomy students to we safety glasses. The policy was approved only after a couple students were sent to the ER for treatment after having embalming fluid splashed in their eyes. Lysol bought at the store is not the best product you could be using. We use a commercially available product from Lysol that will kill bacteria and virus. A solution of 2% chlorox bleach made up fresh each day will work equally as well provided it can sit on the surface to be decontaminated for at least 5 minutes. Hope this helps, Janeen. :):):):):):):):):):):):) Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. >>> Barbara Klein - 9/8/99 2:12 PM >>> Hello everyone. I am the new CHO at Clarke college. Members of the biology dept have the following questions. Can you help me out? What are the opinions on requiring eye protection in an anatomy lab or any lab where there is dissection and preservatives? Secondly, a member of the dept would like to use Lysol to clean up blood. Most dept members don't think this is wise. Opinions? thanks barb klein ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:16:25 +1200 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: John Downey Subject: Re: crude oil spill Comments: cc: "spillsorb@kingsley.co.za" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain One of the best products I have come across is a Canadian peat product known as "Spill-Sorb". It is hydrophobic; soaks up 10x its weight in hydrocarbons, doesn't leach, and best of all, actually encapsulates the hydrocarbons into the pore structure of the peat. We use it for oil spills on roads - great where lowslung cars take on traffic islands and rip their sumps off. The road (and your lab floor) will quickly become dry and non-slippery. The only disadvantage is that it is dusty, but you can sweep that up. Don't know where you would get stocks from in Riyadh, but I have forwarded a copy of your message to their South African branch, and they should get back to you pretty smartly. I would be surprised if they didn"t have anyone in Saudi Arabia. If you haven't heard from anyone within 48 hours, email me back directly and I will ask our local agents to press some buttons for you. Cheers John Downey Hazardous Substances Officer Waitakere City Council Waitakere City New Zealand. John.Downey@waitakere.govt.nz > -----Original Message----- > From: Aziz M. Abu-khalaf [SMTP:amkhalaf@KSU.EDU.SA] > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 1:21 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: crude oil spill > > Hi, > > I would like to know your experience in dealing with crude oil > spillage on the floor of the lab and under the tables and > benches. > > many thanks. > ************************************************************************** > ** > ******* > Aziz M. Abu-Khalaf ***** Tel: 00966 1 4676894 > Chemical Engineering Department ***** Fax: 00966 1 4678770 > King Saud University ***** E-mail: amkhalaf@ksu.edu.sa > PO Box 800 ***** > Riyadh 11421, Saudi Arabia ***** > ************************************************************************** > ** > ******* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:11:38 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: Communications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here at UNE we have a Communications Office. These are the official spokes persons for the university. They get a call from us if we think what we are about to do might case a stir(positive or negative). They are the folks we say to talk to when the media gets involved. It really helps a lot to have folks like this in your organization. They can help clear the air of misleading reports after the dust settles. For what its worth, Janeen. :):):):):):):):):):):):) Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. >>> Nick Spare - 9/8/99 4:00 PM >>> Some questions - what sort of policies do companies have with regard to communicating with the media in times of emergencies? Is there a designated spokes person - if so, who is it?; are there general "no comment" policies; presumably "you'll have to wait till the boss gets back from lunch," etc. is not a real good solution. Is there a course on media communication with respect to the chemical industry available? If so, should the CHO be the person who takes it? Nick Spare ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:12:19 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "DOERFLER, DANA R [FND/1000]" Subject: Re: Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In the manufacturing plant I worked at previously it was the Human Resources Director's responsibility to handle all media inquiries. Our corporate PR personnel were available to guide him if need be. We provided media training for several personnel - all of the top management folks and the Incident Commanders "just in case", but our thoughts were that the HR Director is least likely to be critical to the response activities from and ESH or manufacturing perspective. Also, in the incidents we experienced during my time there, we found that the local fire department's HAZMAT crew (with whom we developed a very strong relationship) was generally willing to provide a fire dept spokesperson who would actually be the guy on camera when needed. Dana Doerfler -----Original Message----- From: Nick Spare [mailto:NJSpare@PILOTCHEMICAL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 3:00 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Communications Some questions - what sort of policies do companies have with regard to communicating with the media in times of emergencies? Is there a designated spokesperson - if so, who is it?; are there general "no comment" policies; presumably "you'll have to wait till the boss gets back from lunch," etc. is not a real good solution. Is there a course on media communication with respect to the chemical industry available? If so, should the CHO be the person who takes it? Nick Spare ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:28:23 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Sharon Reed Subject: Re: Communications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Our company only allows the Director of Human Resources to speak to the media in the case of emergencies occurring on our facility. This, obviously, is to allow any damaging PR to be kept to a minimum, and to make sure unsubstantiated rumors are not blown out of proportion. All other employees are instructed not to speak to the media at all. I have taken our county Local Emergency Planning Committee's Public Safety Critical Incident Management course, which is an excellent course that touches on the subject of how to deal with the media during emergencies. And the main focus of the course is how the various groups involved in an emergency (the fire, police, businesses, media, ambulance/hospitals, etc.) set up a chain of command, need to communicate, etcetc. I recommend any CHO, maintenance, or facilities director take such a course if it is available in your community. Sharon Reed Safety Officer, Pall Corporation Cortland NY 13045 email at |--------+---------------------------> | | Nick Spare | | | | | | | | | 09/08/99 04:00 PM| | | Please respond to| | | LABSAFETY-L | | | Discussion List | | | | |--------+---------------------------> >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU | | cc: (bcc: Sharon Reed/PEDNY/Pall/US) | | Subject: Communications | >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| Some questions - what sort of policies do companies have with regard to communicating with the media in times of emergencies? Is there a designated spokesperson - if so, who is it?; are there general "no comment" policies; presumably "you'll have to wait till the boss gets back from lunch," etc. is not a real good solution. Is there a course on media communication with respect to the chemical industry available? If so, should the CHO be the person who takes it? Nick Spare ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:38:26 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Chemical news reporting (was ChemCon digest...) In-Reply-To: <005d01befa1f$cb7dc4e0$2101010a@njs> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:30 AM 9/8/99 -0700, you wrote: >The problem I find with early reports on accidents involving chemicals are >that they are often provided by well-meaning people who are eminently >unqualified to report such matters. Two of my favorites, the first from the earliest days of chemophobia: -- Front page top of the fold photo of a wailing toddler. Caption: Child had to be tested for toxic exposure to arsenic. Fact: Family's water from a well in a moutainous, non industrial region. Toddler's test was urinalysis (perhaps from diaper). PS: There was elevated arsenic. --Two full length columns, headlined about a radioactive spill in a local lab. After everyone and his uncle responded -- amount of spill and what it was was buried in last paragraph on an inside page: A few ml of a low concentration of a substance with a half-life of less than a week. The term half-life was not used. I called the reporter to ask why the last paragraph (implying to anyone with any science background that it was no big deal) was not moved to the 2nd paragraph. He said no one would have understood half life anyhow, (I suspect he did not understand it, and assumed no one else would. This after the paper had spent weeks trying to sort out for the reader the various players in Central America (this was a few years back). They would teach us the one, but avoid teaching the other, adding to chemophobia. The reporter was unreceptive to my comments. That paper used to have a prize-winning science reporter of national repute. Mary Ann Mary Ann Solstad, CIH 4 A's of Safety SOLSTAD Health & Safety Evaluations Attitude 16 Pequot Rd, Marblehead, MA 01945 Awareness 781-631-4748 tel, 781-631-1832 FAX Automatic Application Authority Past Chair, DivCHAS, ACS msolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:45:21 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: Venetian turpentine In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990908123349.007ab500@cc.usu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" THANKS! It is now in the flammables cabinet. Our host institution (USU) EH&S office will pick it up as hazardous waste. CSJ Why on earth are you disposing of it, (helping fill up a landfill), instead of sending it to biology where it can be useful?? mas At 01:37 PM 9/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >Venice Turpentine???????? Merck Index, Eleventh Edition, page 9851, entry >no. 9847, Venice Turpentine or Larch turpentine is oleoresin from Larix >decidua Mill. Pinacea. Habit. >Volatile oil, resin. Use in light microscopy. Yellow, sometimes greenish, >limpid( Characterized by transparent clearness, (I had to look that one >up)), tenacious, thick liquid, pleasant aromatic odor, hot pungent, >somewhat bitter taste, Becomes hard and brittle upon prolonged exposure >to air. Insoluble in water, soluble in glacial acetic acid, amyl alcohol, >acetone, caustic alkalies, slowly but freely soluble in alcohol >Use: As clearing agent and mounting medium for light microscopy > *************************************************************** Carolyn S. Jaussi Biologist, CHO Mary Ann Mary Ann Solstad, CIH 16 Pequot Rd Marblehead, MA 01945-1202 tel 781-631-4748, FAX 781-631-1832 outmsolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:19:31 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Carolyn S. Jaussi" Subject: Re: Venetian turpentine In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990908164521.00c1d730@pop.ne.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good question. Not to worry though. Our safety office is excellent: solves each problem individually. If they can find a user on campus, they will. We do little cytology here now and have moved on to molecular work. Moving the chemical to their possession is the straightest line to a solution. C. At 04:45 PM 9/8/99 -0400, you wrote: >THANKS! It is now in the flammables cabinet. Our host institution (USU) >EH&S office will pick it up as hazardous waste. CSJ > >Why on earth are you disposing of it, (helping fill up a landfill), instead >of sending it to biology where it can be useful?? mas > > > > > >At 01:37 PM 9/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Venice Turpentine???????? Merck Index, Eleventh Edition, page 9851, entry >>no. 9847, Venice Turpentine or Larch turpentine is oleoresin from Larix >>decidua Mill. Pinacea. Habit. >>Volatile oil, resin. Use in light microscopy. Yellow, sometimes greenish, >>limpid( Characterized by transparent clearness, (I had to look that one >>up)), tenacious, thick liquid, pleasant aromatic odor, hot pungent, >>somewhat bitter taste, Becomes hard and brittle upon prolonged exposure >>to air. Insoluble in water, soluble in glacial acetic acid, amyl alcohol, >>acetone, caustic alkalies, slowly but freely soluble in alcohol >>Use: As clearing agent and mounting medium for light microscopy >> > > >*************************************************************** > Carolyn S. Jaussi > Biologist, CHO > > >Mary Ann > >Mary Ann Solstad, CIH >16 Pequot Rd >Marblehead, MA 01945-1202 >tel 781-631-4748, FAX 781-631-1832 >msolstad@mediaone.net > *************************************************************** Carolyn S. Jaussi Biologist, CHO USDA ARS FRRL Utah State University 700 N 1100 E Logan UT 84322-6300 Phone: (435)-797-3222 FAX: (435)-797-3075 Email: csjaussi@cc.usu.edu *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:18:54 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Paul J Fitzgerald Subject: Re: CHEMCOM Digest - 1 Sep 1999 to 2 Sep 1999 (#1999-144) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I agree with Tammy Tayman and Dewey Williams. Please report only facts that have been verified. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:05:31 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Erik Talley Subject: Hazardous Materials Technologist, Syracuse University MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Please do not contact me about this position. I am just posting it for someone else -----Original Message----- From: Holly Ioset [mailto:HHioset@syr.edu] Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 8:48 AM To: Erik Talley Subject: Re: CHAS Feedback Hazardous Materials Technologist Syracuse University Syracuse, New York September 2, 1999 Syracuse University is accepting applications for Hazardous Materials Technologist in the Environmental Health Office. The Hazardous Materials Technologist (HMT) plans and performs day to day operations in the University Hazardous Waste Management Program, including waste pick-ups, and identification, packaging, treatment, storage and shipping of hazardous chemical waste. Qualified candidates will hold a bachelor's degree in chemistry, chemical engineering, or a related science major, with three year's experience in hazardous waste operations. The HMT maintains the accumulation facility, equipment, and supplies for the area, including drum and heavy materials handling, has some long work days, and works in potentially hazardous environments. Chemical spill response services will be performed, training & assistance will be provided by the HMT to generators of hazardous waste. The HMT maintains regulatory record keeping, tracks waste inventory, prepares reports, and uses computerized data management. The HMT also coordinates vendor services and has oversight of services by outside contractors to insure regulatory compliance. This individual will provide expertise on the chemistry of hazardous materials and new program development. This position requires the skills necessary to implement state, federal and local regulations for hazardous chemical waste operations. Excellent written and verbal communication skills required. Send resume and cover letter to: Syracuse University Office of Human Resources Skytop Office Building Syracuse, NY 13244-5300 An EO/AA Employer Closing Date for applications: September 30, 1999 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:55:33 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Diana Marshall Subject: Re: HIV Drugs and Chemical Interactions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am not responding to this memo! I couldn't readily find your e-mail address. QUESTION: I am going to be in the Memphis Tenn. area from Nov. 9th to Nov. 16th.. Is there any Safety/ Haz.Chemical/anything pertaining to Chemistry seminars going on during these dates? Please respond anyone! >>> Madelyn Miller 08/04/99 01:30PM >>> Greetings, Wow, that a good one. I think I would call the poison control center. We have an excellent one here in Pittsburgh, (actually originated here). If you want to call the one in P'burgh here is the number. 412-692-5600. Dr. Edward Krenzlok is the director. ( PhD in pharmacology) Pittsburgh Poison Control Center should be able to help you . If they can't ask for Ed. Madelyn On Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:58:47 -0400 Janeen LaPierre wrote: > Howdy All. > > Have any of you run into the situation of advising an HIV positive individual who is currently being treated with the prescribed drug regimen about possible interactions with chemicals they are exposed to in a lab setting. The chemicals in question are formaldehyde and phenol which make up embalming fluid. The balance of the fluid is methanol and water. > > Every year at the start of Gross Anatomy lab we run into many issues in lab. This is a first for me. Any information or sources would be greatly appreciated. Oh, and did I mention I need to get something together by noon tomorrow? Don't ya love this stuff? > > Thanks, Janeen. > > :):):):):):):):):):):):) > Janeen Lapierre, CHO > College of Osteopathic Medicine > University of New England > 11 Hills Beach Road > Biddeford, ME 04005 > > E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU > Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 > Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Director & Chemical Hygiene Officer Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:53:55 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Roberta Black Subject: Re: Communications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At our college, no one except the College President or the VP for College Relations may make a statement to the press. They supposedly are briefed by people in the know before they speak. Pax et bonum ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:23:50 +0000 Reply-To: maddenje@bc.edu Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "John G. Madden" Subject: Taste of chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII When reading the description of Venice turpentine, ***Volatile oil, resin. Use in light microscopy. Yellow, sometimes greenish, limpid..., tenacious, thick liquid, pleasant aromatic odor, hot pungent, somewhat bitter taste,** the taste characterization struck me as curious. Is there any value for us to the taste quality of substances not meant to be eaten or drunk? (Who was the lucky guy who determined Venice turpentine's taste? How accurate is this characterization?) Should we value it as information, no matter how useless? I realize that in years past, a taste test was occasionally used and valued; but in this day and age, is taste of chemicals, no matter how naturally occuring, anachronistic or even undesirable in principle? Does advocating elimination of that info equate to acting as anti-intellectual or as P.C. police? Is the existence of that information counter-productive to current prudent practice interests? Does anyone else care about this? Just wondering out loud. ---------------------- John G. Madden maddenje@bc.edu Boston College Chemistry Department ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:34:41 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: Taste of chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >the taste characterization struck me as curious. Is there any value for >us to the taste quality of substances not meant to be eaten or drunk? A couple of years ago, I addended a conference workshop about chemistry in science museums. One of our activities was to repeat some of the work that Lavoiser did to characterize acids, bases, and a few neutral salts. The original text was used to create a laboratory experience for the participants. Taste was one of the tests that we were asked to do. Sure it was on very dilute acids and bases (HCl, sulfuric acid to name a couple), but I was not about to taste these chemicals. Most of the participants were museum exhibit designers (art, history majors). They did not see a problem with doing this part of the experiment. Of the 26 participants, over 1/2 were willing to use taste as a method to characterize substances. I thought it was teaching these non-science people that chemists taste lab experiments all the time. Ugh! Julie O'Brien afn35210@afn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:49:01 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: Taste of chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I don't partake in lab taste testing, but I don't work in a food or beverage quality control either. However, there are some notable examples for lab chemicals, where taste (not tasting) may be the first method of detecting dermal exposure, and it is necessary to know at least qualitatively what the taste would be. For example, persons working with dimethysulfoxide (DMSO) should know that if they taste a garlic-type oder, they may have endured skin contact. In this case, taste could be the first method of detecting an exposure. Ben Greene ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:40:45 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Thomas Goob Subject: Re: Taste of chemicals Comments: To: maddenje@bc.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just a thought. Before OSHA revised the respiratory protection standard, it was okay to wait to change your respirator cartridges until you would start to observe the warning properties of the contaminant. For particulates and fumes the warning property to look out for was increased breathing resistance since they clog filters. For gasses and vapors, since they break through cartridges, you would look for the warning properties which included: TASTE, odor, irritation, etc. With that said, I would assume that it may be beneficial for the respirator user to know what a contaminant may taste like, in order to identify break through or a poor fit. Just my thoughts... Tom Goob UMDNJ-EOHSS At 12:23 PM 9/9/99 +0000, John G. Madden wrote: > When reading the description of Venice turpentine, >***Volatile oil, resin. Use in light microscopy. Yellow, sometimes >greenish, limpid..., tenacious, thick liquid, pleasant aromatic odor, >hot pungent, somewhat bitter taste,** >the taste characterization struck me as curious. Is there any value for >us to the taste quality of substances not meant to be eaten or drunk? >(Who was the lucky guy who determined Venice turpentine's taste? How >accurate is this characterization?) Should we value it as information, >no matter how useless? I realize that in years past, a taste test was >occasionally used and valued; but in this day and age, is taste of >chemicals, no matter how naturally occuring, anachronistic or even >undesirable in principle? Does advocating elimination of that info >equate to acting as anti-intellectual or as P.C. police? Is the >existence of that information counter-productive to current prudent >practice interests? Does anyone else care about this? Just wondering >out loud. > > >---------------------- >John G. Madden >maddenje@bc.edu >Boston College >Chemistry Department > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:50:13 +0000 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Barb Moore Subject: LABORATORY LIABILITY MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have a question for the group. In our CHP, we have stated that students working after hours MUST be accompanied by a buddy. Now the faculty has decided that in certain circumstances (and I don't know what those circumstances might be) students would be permitted to be in the building alone after hours. I am to look into purchasing a cellular phone that these students might take with them through the building. The questions that the staff has posed are - are they (the professional staff or the institution) exempt from liability if the buddy system is in place would the cellular phone eliminate any liability OSHA would not cover these students as they are not employees. I believe that as the instructor or adviser of these students, the professor would still be responsible - but then there is personal responsibility on the part of the student. My feeling is that a good attorney could make a case of negligence even if the student was accompanied by 5 others, wired with a top-way radio or telephone, and a surveilance camera as long as the instructor was not present. I don't know of any law covering this type of liability, but I'm sure there is something. - Can anyone out there help with proper citations??? ---------- Barbara Moore 330-263-2379 Administrative Manager FAX 330-263-2378 Biology Dept bmoore@acs.wooster.edu College of Wooster http://ACS.wooster.edu/biology Wooster, OH 44691 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:19:38 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jim Jenkins Subject: Re: LABORATORY LIABILITY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't know about anyone else, but I would consider myself responsible for any student working in my lab under my supervision. I make sure that students follow accepted safety practices at all time. I do not permit students to work unaccompanied by either me or another certificated science instructor in my lab. I strongly encourage our other faculty to do the same. This is in a high school setting, and may or may not be applicable to college level. I would hope that it would apply to undergraduates working in a lab. They probably should be supervised by an instructor, either a professor or a TA if they are working after hours. Graduate students may be all right since many of these students are employed by the universities as TA's or GA's and as such, are supposed to be properly trained. Jim Jenkins Chairman, Science Department John F. Hodge High School St. James, MO 65559 jjenkins@stjames.k12.mo.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:54:51 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Harry Elston Subject: Re: LABORATORY LIABILITY In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:50 PM 9/9/99 +0000, you wrote: >I have a question for the group. In our CHP, we have stated that students >working after hours MUST be accompanied by a buddy. Now the faculty has >decided that in certain circumstances (and I don't know what those >circumstances might be) students would be permitted to be in the building >alone after hours. I am to look into purchasing a cellular phone that >these students might take with them through the building. > (snip) It is has been my observation that while many colleges and universities have written prohibitions and/or guidelines regarding working "alone" practices, they are frequently violated by upper level and graduate students, in essense saying that "we don't enforce these policies." Some places have defined "alone" as "no one else in the building" which is virutally useless, since there is normally someone always in a large building on campus. What the answer is, I do not know. However, I do not believe that posessing a cellular phone will really help an individual who is unconscious. The added expense would be rather useless from my point of view. (Would you carry a cell phone into the lab where you're handling a lot of solvents or corrosives and take the chance of ruining the phone?) The wisest approach would be to convince students that working alone is dumb and can be dangerous. How you go about that would have to depend on the audience. Good luck. Harry Elston Harry J. Elston, Ph.D. Editor, Chemical Health and Safety and Chemical Hygiene Officer Illinois Department of Nuclear Safety Opinions are my own, not my employer's, blah, blah, blah "As a matter of fact, I do know 10 things that are carved in stone." -God ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:10:24 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Subject: Ice Machines for Lab Use Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone have a written policy/procedure specifically prohibiting the use of ice, from science lab ice machines, for beverages? If so, can I access the info on the WWW? Thanks, Teresa Robertson CSUB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:33:06 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: Ice Machines for Lab Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" DON'T DO IT!!!!! WE have process; chemical ice, and food ice, and they are in different freezers. use of chemical ice for food is prohibited. Same thing with refrigerators- no food in chemical fridge, no chemicals in food fridge. But it's not on the web. "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson [mailto:Teresa_Robertson@FIRSTCLASS1.CSUBAK.EDU] Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 16:10 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Ice Machines for Lab Use Does anyone have a written policy/procedure specifically prohibiting the use of ice, from science lab ice machines, for beverages? If so, can I access the info on the WWW? Thanks, Teresa Robertson CSUB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:44:09 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: Ice Machines for Lab Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Theresa - one CHP says "Do not store, handle, transport, or consume food or beverages in laboratory areas, chemical or hazardous material storage areas, chemical storage refrigerators, or laboratory glassware, and do not use utensils for food or beverage that are used for laboratory chemicals. Do not use ice from laboratory ice machines for human consumption". Signs I have seen on lab ice machines have varied from "Ice May Be Contaminated - Not for Human Consumption", to "Not for Human Consumption". Unfortunately, there's always the risk someone will take ice out of the lab and use it in an ice chest to chill canned beverages, which could result in external contamination of a can, then ingestion. Perhaps a better sign/policy for lab ice machines would be "For Laboratory Use Only". Also not on the web. Ben Greene ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:48:51 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Subject: Re(2): Ice Machines for Lab Use Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit RBURNS@RUETGERS-ORGANICS-CORP.COM writes: >DON'T DO IT!!!!! > >WE have process; chemical ice, and food ice, and they are in different >freezers. use of chemical ice for food is prohibited. > >Same thing with refrigerators- no food in chemical fridge, no chemicals in >food fridge. Bob, I agree with you completely, and have such policies in place. My motivation here is to find support for the policy with which to convince others to comply. I find two things convince others to comply: it is the law, or it is a policy of the majority of institutions similar to ours. And, just my saying "Everyone else has this policy" goes over as well as when they say to me "No one else does it." They want proof. Teresa > > >Does anyone have a written policy/procedure specifically prohibiting the >use of ice, from science lab ice machines, for beverages? If so, can I >access the info on the WWW? > >Thanks, >Teresa Robertson >CSUB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:08:18 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Spare Subject: Re: Ice Machines for Lab Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Theresa - "Prudent Practices" Section 5.C.2.2 "Avoiding Ingestion of Hazardous Chemicals" covers the situation pretty well from my point of view. Included is the sentence "Laboratory refrigerators, ice chests, cold rooms, ovens and so forth should not be used for food storage or preparation." Of course, the words "should not" could be a problem - I'd be happier with will not. I wonder what these people's spouses would say if they kept bleach or pesticides in the refrigerator at home? Hope this helps and good luck! Nick Spare Pilot Chemical -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 1:14 PM Subject: Ice Machines for Lab Use >Does anyone have a written policy/procedure specifically prohibiting the >use of ice, from science lab ice machines, for beverages? If so, can I >access the info on the WWW? > >Thanks, >Teresa Robertson >CSUB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:19:33 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: Taste of chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" When I took the (mandatory) eighth grade science class at my junior high school, one of the experiments involved tasting (very) dilute solutions of acids (HCl, sulfuric, acetic), bases (sodium bicarbonate, NaOH, KOH) and various salts (I don't remember them all, but there were several potassium salts). This was to give us one more way to characterize the compounds. That was twenty-five years ago. When my daughter went through the same grade five years ago, no such experiment was performed. I still vividly remember the contrast of the tastes of the acids and bases. At the time I thought it was pretty cool. Just a little history! Tammy Tayman > -----Original Message----- > From: John G. Madden [mailto:maddenje@bc.edu] > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 8:24 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Taste of chemicals > > > When reading the description of Venice turpentine, > ***Volatile oil, resin. Use in light microscopy. Yellow, sometimes > greenish, limpid..., tenacious, thick liquid, pleasant aromatic odor, > hot pungent, somewhat bitter taste,** > the taste characterization struck me as curious. Is there any > value for > us to the taste quality of substances not meant to be eaten or drunk? > (Who was the lucky guy who determined Venice turpentine's taste? How > accurate is this characterization?) Should we value it as information, > no matter how useless? I realize that in years past, a taste test was > occasionally used and valued; but in this day and age, is taste of > chemicals, no matter how naturally occuring, anachronistic or even > undesirable in principle? Does advocating elimination of that info > equate to acting as anti-intellectual or as P.C. police? Is the > existence of that information counter-productive to current prudent > practice interests? Does anyone else care about this? Just wondering > out loud. > > > ---------------------- > John G. Madden > maddenje@bc.edu > Boston College > Chemistry Department > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:35:50 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Amy Gregory Subject: Re: LABORATORY LIABILITY In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This was an issue I ran into a couple of years ago. The biology and chemistry faculty at our college allow students to work on independent projects outside class time. Normally, someone was around when a student came to the lab to work on his/her project. However, one evening, all of the faculty had left early and a student needed to get into the lab that night. She asked security to let her into the lab. But, it is the policy not to unlock doors for students. So, she called the professor who insisted that security let her into the lab. The security guard did upon the professor's request, but reported him to the university's H&S dept. The professor argued that we would risk academic integrity if we could not allow students to work on their projects that require specific timing. I have been working with the H&S department to eleviate this problem. It specifies in the Lab Standard (29 CFR 1910.1450 E (1)(q)) "do not work alone in a laboratory if the procedures being conducted are hazardous." My opinion is that whether a student comes into the laboratory to weigh an egg that they are incubating or sets up a distillation, there are hazards in the lab itself. Students can break a bottle of sulfuric acid or fall and hit their head or a number of other mishaps. I believe in the "buddy" system for ANYONE in the lab (including professors with 30 years of experience!). Accidents can happen at any time to anyone. We have made it policy that no one work alone in the labs and that no student work in the labs without laboratory faculty/staff that have gone through Hazard Communication Training within the university. In fact, we do not even allow paid student assistants to work alone! In conclusion, if a student wishes to work on a project that requires he/she to be here during odd hours (i.e. evenings or mornings), he/she must sign up to have a laboratory faculty member or the lab manager here during that time. I hope this gives you some insight to a solution to your problem. Amy R. Gregory Lab Manager/NRCC--CHO Univ. of Cin./Clermont College Amy.Gregory@UC.EDU At 01:50 PM 09/09/1999 +0000, you wrote: >I have a question for the group. In our CHP, we have stated that students >working after hours MUST be accompanied by a buddy. Now the faculty has >decided that in certain circumstances (and I don't know what those >circumstances might be) students would be permitted to be in the building >alone after hours. I am to look into purchasing a cellular phone that >these students might take with them through the building. > >The questions that the staff has posed are - > > are they (the professional staff or the institution) exempt from >liability if the buddy system is in place > would the cellular phone eliminate any liability > > OSHA would not cover these students as they are not employees. I believe >that as the instructor or adviser of these students, the professor would >still be responsible - but then there is personal responsibility on the >part of the student. My feeling is that a good attorney could make a case >of negligence even if the student was accompanied by 5 others, wired with a >top-way radio or telephone, and a surveilance camera as long as the >instructor was not present. > >I don't know of any law covering this type of liability, but I'm sure there >is something. - Can anyone out there help with proper citations??? > > >---------- >Barbara Moore 330-263-2379 >Administrative Manager FAX 330-263-2378 >Biology Dept bmoore@acs.wooster.edu > >College of Wooster > http://ACS.wooster.edu/biology >Wooster, OH 44691 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:53:32 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Rebecca Levins, RSR Corporation" Subject: Re: Ice Machines for Lab Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BEFAE4.8F78D1E0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BEFAE4.8F78D1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Robert Burns. Why have a separate written policy? I would just post signs and add it = to your CHP. On the sign on the ice machine you could state: "Contamination of ice machine by lab chemicals is possible. This ice is = for school laboratory experiment use only. Use of the ice for any other = purpose is prohibited." Best regards, Rebecca Levins Environmental, Health & Safety Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson [mailto:Teresa_Robertson@FIRSTCLASS1.CSUBAK.EDU] Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 16:10 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Ice Machines for Lab Use Does anyone have a written policy/procedure specifically prohibiting the use of ice, from science lab ice machines, for beverages? If so, can I access the info on the WWW? Thanks, Teresa Robertson CSUB =00 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:59:52 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Subject: Re(2): LABORATORY LIABILITY Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cordisar@EMAIL.UC.EDU writes: >I have been working with the H&S department to eleviate this problem. It >specifies in the Lab Standard (29 CFR 1910.1450 E (1)(q)) "do not work >alone in a laboratory if the procedures being conducted are hazardous." I completely agree, but you cite a portion of the "Lab Standard" that is "...Recommendations...(Non-Mandatory)". ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:10:19 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Subject: Re(2): Ice Machines for Lab Use Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit rsrrdl@ONRAMP.NET writes: > >"Contamination of ice machine by lab chemicals is possible. This ice is >for school laboratory experiment use only. Use of the ice for any other >purpose is prohibited." I very much appreciate the advice. We already have the policy in place, the signs are up, but we have a few stubborn hold-outs. My problem is convincing them to stop, without going to the Dean, which can make people really cranky, and this may be trivial enough (their lack of compliance) to make the Dean cranky also. So, actually, we should not be discussing ice machines, nor food and beverage in the lab, but getting people to buy into continuing improvement of safety practices. I guess the bottom line is, there will always be someone.... Thanks again for the input, Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:50:19 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Madelyn Miller Subject: Re(2): LABORATORY LIABILITY In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Greetings, We tell graduate students that they are not supposed to work alone in the labs but we know they will. We ask them to do wet chemistry between 8 and 5 and do paper work after that. But...if they have an experiment that runs over, particularly if might be dangerous, they are to call campus security and tell them their location and how long the procedure will take. When they're done they'll call campus security back. That way, if they don't call back, someone will go looking for them. Madelyn ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Director & Chemical Hygiene Officer Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:53:32 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Amanda Dixon Subject: Re: LABORATORY LIABILITY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" We have a policy that does not allow students into labs after normal class hours to do lab work unless a professor is present. To allow students to do things like study skeletons, feed mice or check on a project, we require that a form be submitted stating what activities will occur and the lab must be cleared of all chemicals and hazardous items or they must be locked up. Once the CHO has given the OK for a lab, the professor responsible must give the security department a list of student names for each lab as to who may enter. Our security guards must be contacted to let students into acceptable areas for study and check on the students at regular intervals. All students are required to leave the building at midnight. So far this has worked well as a compromise for certain situations. We instituted this policy after a student disregarded a professor's instructions and prepared an NMR tube while the prof was not present which then broke and splashed chemicals in the students eyes (yes she was supposed to be wearing goggles and wasn't). The only person present was a math professor who had been trained in the use of an eye wash/shower during his safety training and was able to help the student. Fortunately, there were no lasting effects from the incident. We were very glad we had insisted all personnel in the building had been trained how to handle an emergency and realized the need for locking labs whenever a professor is not present. In my personal opinion, there is no experiment that is so important at the undergraduate level that students should be exposed to hazardous situations when appropriate personnel are not available. If a professor insists on having students come in after hours to check on something then the prof should be responsible for being there to make sure the students work safely. Otherwise they should find another experiment to show the methods and theories being taught. Amanda Dixon RMWC Lynchburg, VA 24503 email adixon@rmwc.edu phone 804-947-8568 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:15:05 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Gonzalez, Lisa" Subject: Re: new CHO with questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "Secondly, a member of the dept would like to use Lysol to clean up blood. Most dept members don't think this is wise. Opinions?" Barbara- Welcome aboard! If you are handling blood or blood products that you are not sure are not infected, you should use universal precautions. Universal precautions- is an approach to infection control. According to the concept of universal precautions, all human blood and most human body fluids are treated as if they are known to be infected with HIV, HBV, and other bloodborne pathogens. You should also review OSHA's Bloodborne Pathogen standard, 29 CFR 1910.1030. Also as Janeen stated, the decontaminant should be 2% bleach or 85%ethanol. Lisa A. Gonzalez, NRCC-CHO R&D Safety and Health Officer lisa.gonzalez@pharma.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:56:51 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Re: new CHO with questions Comments: To: Lisa.Gonzalez@PHARMA.COM In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, I believe that should be a 20% bleach solution (maybe just a typo?) and I would stay away from using ethanol to treat specific spills of blood and other potentially infectious materials. It may be okay for general wipe downs of work surfaces but is not always effective for killing organisms of spill situations. Plus it's flammable. If you don't want to use bleach, then look toward phenolic or quat ammonium disinfectants. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:08:41 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Byington Organization: The University of Memphis Subject: Re: new CHO with questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your bleach solution should be 10% rather than 2%. Welcome aboard, and yes definitely read 29 CFR 1910.1030. Things like proper decontamination concentrations and the like can be found there. -- Bob Byington Laboratory Safety Specialist,WebMaster Environmental Health and Safety 210B Old Brister Library The University of Memphis Memphis, TN 38152-6191 (901) 678-4672 fax (901) 678-4673 rbyingtn@memphis.edu homepage: http://www.people.memphis.edu/~ehas personal: http://www.people.memphis.edu/~rbyingtn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:31:45 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: new CHO with questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 2% bleach was not a typo. We use it for decontaminating things we can not autoclave. The key is to make it up fresh every day and it must remain in contact with the surface you are decontaminating for at least 5 minutes. This concentration has been evaluated in controlled studies and is effective. Janeen :):):):):):):):):):):):) Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:19:36 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Re: Goggles Song Comments: To: LMudd@ETOWN.K12.KY.US In-Reply-To: <5101ED551B5ED211AB6100805FC7DBCCC22F@E152000N2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's the words. I haven't reached my friend yet on "the tune" but I believe that's it too. I will get back to everyone on it. I'll see my friend this weekend. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:30:01 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Dorothy Farina Subject: EM Science Safety Alert/corrosives bottles Comments: To: safety@list.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10413172==_.ALT" --=====================_10413172==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This morning, I received a certified letter from EM Science concerning cracked or broken lips on the bottles of some acids and bases. I've transferred it into an email to pass it along. Contact me directly if you'd like a copy of the original letter faxed to you ( I can only do a few though). Here it is: September 8, 1999 SAFETY ALERT Dear EM Science Customer: During a routine investigation of ACS Reagent grade acids and corrosives, EM Science discovered a potential safety issue with the poly-fitment drip ring located at the lip of the bottleneck. A small percentage of the drip rings have been found to be either cracked or broken. This defect could cause dripping or spillage upon pouring or leakage upon resealing the bottle. A list of potentially affected products follows: ACETIC ACID: AX0073/13, AX0073/6, AX0073/9, AX0073/14, AX0073/75, AX0074/6, AX0073P/5 AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE: AX1303/13, AX1303/6, AX1303/3, AX1303/14, AX1303/75 HYDROCHLORIC ACID: HX0603/13, HX0603/4, HX0603/3, HX0603/14, HX0603/75 NITRIC ACID: NX0409/13, NX0409/4, NX0409/14, NX0409/2, NX0409/75 SULFURIC ACID: SX1244/6, SX1244/13, SX1244/14, SX1244/5, SX1244/75 Acid stock in our warehouse has been reworked to resolve the situation. If you encounter a broken or cracked drip ring, we ask that you contact EM Science at 800-222-0342, extension 415 for a replacement of your product. Please utilize appropriate safety equipment when working with acids and corrosives. When contacting EM Science, please have available product and lot information. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. As a valued EM Science customer, we want to proactively alert you to the situation so that the appropriate precautions can be taken to safely handle the products. Sincerely, Charles Wilson Quality Assurance Manager --=====================_10413172==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" This morning, I received a certified letter from EM Science concerning cracked or broken lips on the bottles of some acids and bases.  I've transferred it into an email to pass it along.  Contact me directly if you'd like a copy of the original letter faxed to you ( I can only do a few though).  Here it is:


September 8, 1999

SAFETY ALERT

Dear EM Science Customer:

During a routine investigation of ACS Reagent grade acids and corrosives, EM Science discovered a potential safety issue with the poly-fitment drip ring located at the lip of the bottleneck.

A small percentage of the drip rings have been found to be either cracked or broken.  This defect could cause dripping or spillage upon pouring or leakage upon resealing the bottle.  A list of potentially affected products follows:

ACETIC ACID: AX0073/13, AX0073/6, AX0073/9, AX0073/14, AX0073/75, AX0074/6, AX0073P/5
AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE: AX1303/13, AX1303/6, AX1303/3, AX1303/14, AX1303/75
HYDROCHLORIC ACID: HX0603/13, HX0603/4, HX0603/3, HX0603/14, HX0603/75
NITRIC ACID: NX0409/13, NX0409/4, NX0409/14, NX0409/2, NX0409/75
SULFURIC ACID: SX1244/6, SX1244/13, SX1244/14, SX1244/5, SX1244/75

Acid stock in our warehouse has been reworked to resolve the situation.  If you encounter a broken or cracked drip ring, we ask that you contact EM Science at 800-222-0342, extension 415 for a replacement of your product.  Please utilize appropriate safety equipment when working with acids and corrosives.  When contacting EM Science, please have available product and lot information.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.  As a valued EM Science customer, we want to proactively alert you to the situation so that the appropriate precautions can be taken to safely handle the products.

Sincerely,
Charles Wilson
Quality Assurance Manager
--=====================_10413172==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:44:48 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: new CHO with questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" According to CDC, it should be a 10% bleach solution for 20 minutes to ensure complete effectiveness. Tammy Tayman > -----Original Message----- > From: Janeen LaPierre [mailto:JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU] > Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 11:32 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: new CHO with questions > > > 2% bleach was not a typo. We use it for decontaminating > things we can not autoclave. The key is to make it up fresh > every day and it must remain in contact with the surface you > are decontaminating for at least 5 minutes. This > concentration has been evaluated in controlled studies and is > effective. > > Janeen > > :):):):):):):):):):):):) > Janeen Lapierre, CHO > College of Osteopathic Medicine > University of New England > 11 Hills Beach Road > Biddeford, ME 04005 > > E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU > Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 > Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:32:53 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Schloesser, Laura" Subject: Re: new CHO with questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I work at a blood center and we recommend a 1% dilution with a 2-3 minute wet contact time. The odor is decreased significantly and it is just as effective. Laura Schloesser Safety Specialist The Blood Center of Southeastern Wisconsin, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: Janeen LaPierre [mailto:JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU] Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 10:32 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: new CHO with questions 2% bleach was not a typo. We use it for decontaminating things we can not autoclave. The key is to make it up fresh every day and it must remain in contact with the surface you are decontaminating for at least 5 minutes. This concentration has been evaluated in controlled studies and is effective. Janeen :):):):):):):):):):):):) Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:20:31 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Debbie Decker Subject: Re(2): Ice Machines for Lab Use In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:10 PM 9/9/99 -0700, you wrote: >rsrrdl@ONRAMP.NET writes: >> >>"Contamination of ice machine by lab chemicals is possible. This ice is >>for school laboratory experiment use only. Use of the ice for any other >>purpose is prohibited." > >I very much appreciate the advice. We already have the policy in place, >the signs are up, but we have a few stubborn hold-outs. A couple of tidbits: The water for lab ice machines around here comes from the "industrial" water - that is, water that is not protected by back-flow prevention and could be contaminated. The machines are labelled "not for human consumption" or "industrial water ice - do not eat" or language to that effect. The word has gotten out because I don't know of any problems with folks consuming the lab ice. Several years ago, a university ended up with an outbreak of food-borne illness traced to contaminated ice. The ice was made from domestic water but used to chill cans of soda in ice chests at an on-campus outdoor event. People used the ice in cups to cool drinks and it appears that some folks were eating the ice as well. Either contaminated cans or contaminated hands . Ya'll be careful out there! Deb. Debbie M. Decker, Health and Safety Specialist Environmental Health and Safety University of California, Davis 1 Shields Ave. Davis, CA 95616 (530)754-7964 (530)752-1493 dmdecker@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:22:41 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nadine Grady Subject: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BEFBB9.7E2B5766" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BEFBB9.7E2B5766 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" During a recent remodeling, a piped vacuum system was installed in our Science Bldg. In previous years the Organic Chem professor had students evaporate solvents from their synthesized products under vacuum provided by water aspirators. Now he wants to do the same thing using the piped vacuum system. This would take flammable vapors, usually ethyl ether or methylene chloride, through the pump. The electrical panel and solenoids on the pump are not explosion-proofed. The pump manufacturer has provided me a chemical resistance chart for the Viton pump seals. Their resistance to ether and methylene chloride is rated as "fair" and "good" respectively. They have no estimate of failure time, except that it would be shorter with a higher concentration of chemical. The prof insists that using the vacuum for evaporation is necessary in order for students to complete the lab in the time allotted. Total amount evaporated during one lab period (probably during the last hour) would be about 750-800 mL of either ether or methylene chloride. Have any of you had experience with pulling flammable vapors through vacuum pumps? Can you make any helpful comments or recommendations? ************************************************************** Nadine B. Grady, MS, CIH Chemical Hygiene Officer, Whitworth College 300 W. Hawthorne Rd., Spokane, WA 99251-3903 Tel: (509) 777-4510 Fax: (509) 777-3221 ngrady@whitworth.edu ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:48:35 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: James Kapin Subject: Re: Re(2): Ice Machines for Lab Use Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:10 PM 9/9/99 -0700, you wrote: >rsrrdl@ONRAMP.NET writes: >> >>"Contamination of ice machine by lab chemicals is possible. This ice is >>for school laboratory experiment use only. Use of the ice for any other >>purpose is prohibited." > Aside from contamination issues, all lab ice machines on our campus are plumbed to industrial cold water (ICW) lines. ICW is the same as the potable water for bathrooms, eyewashes, etc. except that is does not have the same protection against cross connection to sewer, so we do not consider it potable. All ICW faucets are labeled as "Industrial Water - Do Not Drink" Jim Jim Kapin, UCSD Chemical Safety Officer Mail Code 0920 9500 Gilman Drive, La Jolla CA 92093 (858)534-2823 fax (858)534-7982 mailto:jkapin@ucsd.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:26:17 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Lampe Hannasch, Kay" Subject: Re: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Nadine, I have used pumps for many solvent evaporations. I would recommend looking into an alternate solvent(s) for the extraction as a first step to improve the safety. Second, I would also require that a cold trap be used before and in-line with the pump. Kay Lampe Hannasch Safety Manager - Research Laboratories Pioneer Hi-Bred International, Inc. e-mail: LampeHannKM@phibred.com "The opinions expressed here are mine, not that of my employer." -----Original Message----- From: Nadine Grady [mailto:ngrady@WHITWORTH.EDU] Sent: September 10, 1999 1:23 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps During a recent remodeling, a piped vacuum system was installed in our Science Bldg. In previous years the Organic Chem professor had students evaporate solvents from their synthesized products under vacuum provided by water aspirators. Now he wants to do the same thing using the piped vacuum system. This would take flammable vapors, usually ethyl ether or methylene chloride, through the pump. The electrical panel and solenoids on the pump are not explosion-proofed. The pump manufacturer has provided me a chemical resistance chart for the Viton pump seals. Their resistance to ether and methylene chloride is rated as "fair" and "good" respectively. They have no estimate of failure time, except that it would be shorter with a higher concentration of chemical. The prof insists that using the vacuum for evaporation is necessary in order for students to complete the lab in the time allotted. Total amount evaporated during one lab period (probably during the last hour) would be about 750-800 mL of either ether or methylene chloride. Have any of you had experience with pulling flammable vapors through vacuum pumps? Can you make any helpful comments or recommendations? ************************************************************** Nadine B. Grady, MS, CIH Chemical Hygiene Officer, Whitworth College 300 W. Hawthorne Rd., Spokane, WA 99251-3903 Tel: (509) 777-4510 Fax: (509) 777-3221 ngrady@whitworth.edu ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:31:33 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Ray Campbell Subject: Re: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Also FTS Systems manufactures vacuum vapor traps capable of -100C. I have four which I use daily for Methylene Chloride. The number is 914-687-0071. Ray Campbell REA CHO 310-257-1080 At 02:26 PM 9/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >Nadine, > >I have used pumps for many solvent evaporations. I would recommend looking >into an alternate solvent(s) for the extraction as a first step to improve >the safety. Second, I would also require that a cold trap be used before >and in-line with the pump. > >Kay Lampe Hannasch >Safety Manager - Research Laboratories >Pioneer Hi-Bred International, Inc. > >e-mail: LampeHannKM@phibred.com > >"The opinions expressed here are mine, not that of my employer." > >-----Original Message----- >From: Nadine Grady [mailto:ngrady@WHITWORTH.EDU] >Sent: September 10, 1999 1:23 PM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps > > >During a recent remodeling, a piped vacuum system was installed in our >Science Bldg. In previous years the Organic Chem professor had students >evaporate solvents from their synthesized products under vacuum provided by >water aspirators. Now he wants to do the same thing using the piped vacuum >system. This would take flammable vapors, usually ethyl ether or methylene >chloride, through the pump. The electrical panel and solenoids on the pump >are not explosion-proofed. The pump manufacturer has provided me a chemical >resistance chart for the Viton pump seals. Their resistance to ether and >methylene chloride is rated as "fair" and "good" respectively. They have no >estimate of failure time, except that it would be shorter with a higher >concentration of chemical. The prof insists that using the vacuum for >evaporation is necessary in order for students to complete the lab in the >time allotted. Total amount evaporated during one lab period (probably >during the last hour) would be about 750-800 mL of either ether or methylene >chloride. > >Have any of you had experience with pulling flammable vapors through vacuum >pumps? Can you make any helpful comments or recommendations? > >************************************************************** >Nadine B. Grady, MS, CIH >Chemical Hygiene Officer, Whitworth College >300 W. Hawthorne Rd., Spokane, WA 99251-3903 >Tel: (509) 777-4510 Fax: (509) 777-3221 >ngrady@whitworth.edu >******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:53:51 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" We have just such a system which our organic faculty use in just such a manner. However we have installed a "cryovac" system between the lab lines and the vacuum pump. It is basically a fancy cold trap which goes down to -93C and freezes out the organic vapors before they reach the vacuum pump. When the cryovac is turned off, the vacuum is closed off at the cryovac unit (by manual valves which our department controls), which prevents any vapors from getting to the vacuum pump. Our system came from FTS Systems, Stone Ridge , New York, phone number 914-687-0071. When we replace ours two years ago, the cost was about 2,900.00. The unit is VERY nice! Tammy Tayman Montgomery College Department of Chemistry > -----Original Message----- > From: Nadine Grady [mailto:ngrady@WHITWORTH.EDU] > Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 2:23 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps > > > During a recent remodeling, a piped vacuum system was > installed in our Science Bldg. In previous years the Organic > Chem professor had students evaporate solvents from their > synthesized products under vacuum provided by water > aspirators. Now he wants to do the same thing using the > piped vacuum system. This would take flammable vapors, > usually ethyl ether or methylene chloride, through the pump. > The electrical panel and solenoids on the pump are not > explosion-proofed. The pump manufacturer has provided me a > chemical resistance chart for the Viton pump seals. Their > resistance to ether and methylene chloride is rated as > "fair" and "good" respectively. They have no estimate of > failure time, except that it would be shorter with a higher > concentration of chemical. The prof insists that using the > vacuum for evaporation is necessary in order for students to > complete the lab in the time allotted. Total amount > evaporated during one lab period (probably during the last > hour) would be about 750-800 mL of either ether or methylene chloride. > > Have any of you had experience with pulling flammable vapors > through vacuum pumps? Can you make any helpful comments or > recommendations? > > ************************************************************** > Nadine B. Grady, MS, CIH > Chemical Hygiene Officer, Whitworth College > 300 W. Hawthorne Rd., Spokane, WA 99251-3903 > Tel: (509) 777-4510 Fax: (509) 777-3221 > ngrady@whitworth.edu > ******************************************************************* > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:55:36 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps In-Reply-To: <70A0B33719B7D211953100A0C9D06E6116E21F@exchange.whitworth.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Like several of the issues raised lately, there's no regulation that specifically states this is a bad idea, but it is. There's no good way aroundthe fact that the systems are meant to suck in air, not vapors. The laboratory's objectives could be met by proper use of cold traps on their vacuum lines, to keep the vapors out of the system. (Cold traps bring their own set of concerns, but that's another e-mail.) This would also be desirable with the water aspirators, as all that methylene chloride and ether either goes down the drain or into the lab room air when aspirators are used. Aside from the fire /explosion hazard and degradation of seals you mention when vapors directly enter the vacuum system, consider the location of the house vacuum pump itself. If it is in a mechanical room and vents to the room in some way, either directly or via a water-sealed impeller, the vapors may enter things like the combustion air of boilers, water heaters, and generators. Methylene chloride vapors break down to form HCl when drawn into combustion processes. This leads to premature rust-through/deterioration of flue pipes, stacks, chimney liners, etc. Best of luck. Don >During a recent remodeling, a piped vacuum system was installed in our >Science Bldg. In previous years the Organic Chem professor had students >evaporate solvents from their synthesized products under vacuum provided by >water aspirators. Now he wants to do the same thing using the piped vacuum >system. This would take flammable vapors, usually ethyl ether or methylene >chloride, through the pump. The electrical panel and solenoids on the pump >are not explosion-proofed. The pump manufacturer has provided me a chemical >resistance chart for the Viton pump seals. Their resistance to ether and >methylene chloride is rated as "fair" and "good" respectively. They have no >estimate of failure time, except that it would be shorter with a higher >concentration of chemical. The prof insists that using the vacuum for >evaporation is necessary in order for students to complete the lab in the >time allotted. Total amount evaporated during one lab period (probably >during the last hour) would be about 750-800 mL of either ether or methylene >chloride. > >Have any of you had experience with pulling flammable vapors through vacuum >pumps? Can you make any helpful comments or recommendations? > >************************************************************** >Nadine B. Grady, MS, CIH >Chemical Hygiene Officer, Whitworth College >300 W. Hawthorne Rd., Spokane, WA 99251-3903 >Tel: (509) 777-4510 Fax: (509) 777-3221 >ngrady@whitworth.edu >******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:56:10 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: James Kapin Subject: Re: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We ask everyone evaporating solvents to install a simple fitting with a capilary tube restriction into the vacuum line. We have them made in our glass shop and hand them out for free during lab inspections. This decreases volume of flow, but does not interfere with ultimate vacuum. It takes the roto-vap or whatever a little longer to "pump down" but the increased residence time increases collection efficiency, keeping that much more solvent out of the pumps. Of course a good trapping system is also required - Another consideration - if untrapped some fraction of these vapors will be exhausted from the pumps (the rest will be trapped in the pump oil) - who might be exposed? - Jim At 02:26 PM 9/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >Nadine, > >I have used pumps for many solvent evaporations. I would recommend looking >into an alternate solvent(s) for the extraction as a first step to improve >the safety. Second, I would also require that a cold trap be used before >and in-line with the pump. > >Kay Lampe Hannasch >Safety Manager - Research Laboratories >Pioneer Hi-Bred International, Inc. > >e-mail: LampeHannKM@phibred.com > >"The opinions expressed here are mine, not that of my employer." > >-----Original Message----- >From: Nadine Grady [mailto:ngrady@WHITWORTH.EDU] >Sent: September 10, 1999 1:23 PM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps > > >During a recent remodeling, a piped vacuum system was installed in our >Science Bldg. In previous years the Organic Chem professor had students >evaporate solvents from their synthesized products under vacuum provided by >water aspirators. Now he wants to do the same thing using the piped vacuum >system. This would take flammable vapors, usually ethyl ether or methylene >chloride, through the pump. The electrical panel and solenoids on the pump >are not explosion-proofed. The pump manufacturer has provided me a chemical >resistance chart for the Viton pump seals. Their resistance to ether and >methylene chloride is rated as "fair" and "good" respectively. They have no >estimate of failure time, except that it would be shorter with a higher >concentration of chemical. The prof insists that using the vacuum for >evaporation is necessary in order for students to complete the lab in the >time allotted. Total amount evaporated during one lab period (probably >during the last hour) would be about 750-800 mL of either ether or methylene >chloride. > >Have any of you had experience with pulling flammable vapors through vacuum >pumps? Can you make any helpful comments or recommendations? > >************************************************************** >Nadine B. Grady, MS, CIH >Chemical Hygiene Officer, Whitworth College >300 W. Hawthorne Rd., Spokane, WA 99251-3903 >Tel: (509) 777-4510 Fax: (509) 777-3221 >ngrady@whitworth.edu >******************************************************************* > Jim Kapin, UCSD Chemical Safety Officer Mail Code 0920 9500 Gilman Drive, La Jolla CA 92093 (858)534-2823 fax (858)534-7982 mailto:jkapin@ucsd.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:12:20 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Thomas J. Shelley" Subject: Re: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps In-Reply-To: <70A0B33719B7D211953100A0C9D06E6116E21F@exchange.whitworth.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >During a recent remodeling, a piped vacuum system was installed in our >Science Bldg. In previous years the Organic Chem professor had students >evaporate solvents from their synthesized products under vacuum provided by >water aspirators. Now he wants to do the same thing using the piped vacuum >system. This would take flammable vapors, usually ethyl ether or methylene >chloride, through the pump. The electrical panel and solenoids on the pump >are not explosion-proofed. The pump manufacturer has provided me a chemical >resistance chart for the Viton pump seals. Their resistance to ether and >methylene chloride is rated as "fair" and "good" respectively. They have no >estimate of failure time, except that it would be shorter with a higher >concentration of chemical. The prof insists that using the vacuum for >evaporation is necessary in order for students to complete the lab in the >time allotted. Total amount evaporated during one lab period (probably >during the last hour) would be about 750-800 mL of either ether or methylene >chloride. > >Have any of you had experience with pulling flammable vapors through vacuum >pumps? Can you make any helpful comments or recommendations? Nadine--The simplest solution is to double trap the lines, collect the spent solvent and package it as waste. For the most part, we have stopped using water aspirators as it is difficult to remove all of the MC, etc. The latest thing is an oilless diaphram type pump double trapped with a solvent/dry ice mix and then liquid nitrogen. To use a house vacuum system without trapping out the solvents would be dangerous, result in expensive maintenance and possibly could be an illegal discharge of a hazardous waste. There should be an SOP for the use of pumps with solvents in your CHP. That would take care of all but the culture change end of things, which tends to take care of itself over time. Good luck with this project. Tom Shelley ********************************************************* Tom Shelley, Chemical Hygiene Officer, Cornell University Department of Environmental Health and Safety, 125 Humphreys Service Building, Ithaca, NY 14853. (607) 255-4288 tjs1@cornell.edu ****************************DISCLAIMER******************** The comments and views expressed in this communication are strictly my own and are not to be construed to officially represent those of my peers, supervisors or Cornell University. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:34:17 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Fleming, Douglas" Subject: Help with UNSUBSCRIBE Need to UNSUBSCRIBE from this list for a while Anyone know how? -----Original Message----- From: Ray Campbell [mailto:ray.campbell@VARIANINC.COM] Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 12:32 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps Also FTS Systems manufactures vacuum vapor traps capable of -100C. I have four which I use daily for Methylene Chloride. The number is 914-687-0071. Ray Campbell REA CHO 310-257-1080 At 02:26 PM 9/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >Nadine, > >I have used pumps for many solvent evaporations. I would recommend looking >into an alternate solvent(s) for the extraction as a first step to improve >the safety. Second, I would also require that a cold trap be used before >and in-line with the pump. > >Kay Lampe Hannasch >Safety Manager - Research Laboratories >Pioneer Hi-Bred International, Inc. > >e-mail: LampeHannKM@phibred.com > >"The opinions expressed here are mine, not that of my employer." > >-----Original Message----- >From: Nadine Grady [mailto:ngrady@WHITWORTH.EDU] >Sent: September 10, 1999 1:23 PM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps > > >During a recent remodeling, a piped vacuum system was installed in our >Science Bldg. In previous years the Organic Chem professor had students >evaporate solvents from their synthesized products under vacuum provided by >water aspirators. Now he wants to do the same thing using the piped vacuum >system. This would take flammable vapors, usually ethyl ether or methylene >chloride, through the pump. The electrical panel and solenoids on the pump >are not explosion-proofed. The pump manufacturer has provided me a chemical >resistance chart for the Viton pump seals. Their resistance to ether and >methylene chloride is rated as "fair" and "good" respectively. They have no >estimate of failure time, except that it would be shorter with a higher >concentration of chemical. The prof insists that using the vacuum for >evaporation is necessary in order for students to complete the lab in the >time allotted. Total amount evaporated during one lab period (probably >during the last hour) would be about 750-800 mL of either ether or methylene >chloride. > >Have any of you had experience with pulling flammable vapors through vacuum >pumps? Can you make any helpful comments or recommendations? > >************************************************************** >Nadine B. Grady, MS, CIH >Chemical Hygiene Officer, Whitworth College >300 W. Hawthorne Rd., Spokane, WA 99251-3903 >Tel: (509) 777-4510 Fax: (509) 777-3221 >ngrady@whitworth.edu >******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:46:05 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Ross Williams Subject: Re: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trapping low boiling solvents such as ether and methylene chloride does not usually work very well, even if supposedly efficient traps are used. Has a test of the trapping efficiency been done to ensure that that NO vapor is being brought into the pump system. If the usual traps are used, I would venture to guess that the efficiency will not be high enough. You might think that 90% is enough. However, even at this level, 70 to 80 mls per evaporation session will be allowed to escape. If oil is used in the vacuum pump, it will become contaminated with the ether/methylene chloride solvent and the solvent vapor will vent off into the room. This will lead to a very hazardous situation in the room where the vacuum pumps are located. In addition to rapidly contaminating the oil, the pump components will not last very long unless they are chemically resistant. The use of chemically resistant pumps this might help. These types of pumps are available from the usual lab suppliers. To trap the vapor, a commercial chemical resistant pump along with a suitable trapping system should be used to isolate the evaporation from the sewers. These units are expensive but are quite effective if used properly. Tp prevent the vapor escaping into the lab, you might have to have to put the trap system in a hood. If a high boiling solvent could be used along with a trapping system with a measured efficiency greater than 99% your problem might be solved. The municipality here put strict regulations in place to control what goes down the sink. This has meant quite a few changes in local practices regarding the use of water evaporators and how solvents get handled. Hope this helps. Nadine Grady wrote: > During a recent remodeling, a piped vacuum system was installed in our > Science Bldg. In previous years the Organic Chem professor had students > evaporate solvents from their synthesized products under vacuum provided by > water aspirators. Now he wants to do the same thing using the piped vacuum > system. This would take flammable vapors, usually ethyl ether or methylene > chloride, through the pump. The electrical panel and solenoids on the pump > are not explosion-proofed. The pump manufacturer has provided me a chemical > resistance chart for the Viton pump seals. Their resistance to ether and > methylene chloride is rated as "fair" and "good" respectively. They have no > estimate of failure time, except that it would be shorter with a higher > concentration of chemical. The prof insists that using the vacuum for > evaporation is necessary in order for students to complete the lab in the > time allotted. Total amount evaporated during one lab period (probably > during the last hour) would be about 750-800 mL of either ether or methylene > chloride. > > Have any of you had experience with pulling flammable vapors through vacuum > pumps? Can you make any helpful comments or recommendations? > > ************************************************************** > Nadine B. Grady, MS, CIH > Chemical Hygiene Officer, Whitworth College > 300 W. Hawthorne Rd., Spokane, WA 99251-3903 > Tel: (509) 777-4510 Fax: (509) 777-3221 > ngrady@whitworth.edu > ******************************************************************* > *********************************************** * Dr. R. E. Williams, Ph.D. * Jacques Whitford Environment Ltd. * EHS Management Services * 180 Martin * Ottawa, ON, Canada K1K 2V3 * Tel: (613) 746-4288 * e-mail: rewill@magma.ca *********************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:09:43 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Sharyn Bake Subject: Re: Help with UNSUBSCRIBE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >From the Listserve instructions, which you should have kept: Some common commands for controlling your LAB-XL subscription (which you should send to LISTSERV@LIST.UVM.EDU): SIGNOFF LAB-XL (or UNSUB LAB-XL) This takes your name off the list and ends your subscription. > ---------- > From: Fleming, Douglas > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 2:34 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Help with UNSUBSCRIBE > > Need to UNSUBSCRIBE from this list for a while > Anyone know how? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ray Campbell [mailto:ray.campbell@VARIANINC.COM] > Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 12:32 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps > > > Also FTS Systems manufactures vacuum vapor traps capable of -100C. I have > four which I use daily for Methylene Chloride. The number is 914-687-0071. > > Ray Campbell REA CHO > 310-257-1080 > > At 02:26 PM 9/10/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Nadine, > > > >I have used pumps for many solvent evaporations. I would recommend > looking > >into an alternate solvent(s) for the extraction as a first step to > improve > >the safety. Second, I would also require that a cold trap be used before > >and in-line with the pump. > > > >Kay Lampe Hannasch > >Safety Manager - Research Laboratories > >Pioneer Hi-Bred International, Inc. > > > >e-mail: LampeHannKM@phibred.com > > > >"The opinions expressed here are mine, not that of my employer." > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Nadine Grady [mailto:ngrady@WHITWORTH.EDU] > >Sent: September 10, 1999 1:23 PM > >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > >Subject: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps > > > > > >During a recent remodeling, a piped vacuum system was installed in our > >Science Bldg. In previous years the Organic Chem professor had students > >evaporate solvents from their synthesized products under vacuum provided > by > >water aspirators. Now he wants to do the same thing using the piped > vacuum > >system. This would take flammable vapors, usually ethyl ether or > methylene > >chloride, through the pump. The electrical panel and solenoids on the > pump > >are not explosion-proofed. The pump manufacturer has provided me a > chemical > >resistance chart for the Viton pump seals. Their resistance to ether and > >methylene chloride is rated as "fair" and "good" respectively. They have > no > >estimate of failure time, except that it would be shorter with a higher > >concentration of chemical. The prof insists that using the vacuum for > >evaporation is necessary in order for students to complete the lab in the > >time allotted. Total amount evaporated during one lab period (probably > >during the last hour) would be about 750-800 mL of either ether or > methylene > >chloride. > > > >Have any of you had experience with pulling flammable vapors through > vacuum > >pumps? Can you make any helpful comments or recommendations? > > > >************************************************************** > >Nadine B. Grady, MS, CIH > >Chemical Hygiene Officer, Whitworth College > >300 W. Hawthorne Rd., Spokane, WA 99251-3903 > >Tel: (509) 777-4510 Fax: (509) 777-3221 > >ngrady@whitworth.edu > >******************************************************************* > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:43:42 -0500 Reply-To: swihart@purdue.edu Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: L A Swihart Organization: Purdue University Subject: listserv command MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The more common listserv commands are at http://www.labsafety.org/listref.htm or if you want them in their LSW frames context, go to http://www.labsafety.org/ and look under NACHO, for Listserv commands. Commands are always sent to the listserver, not to the list. The listserver's address is LISTSERV@SIU.EDU (the list address is LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU, and sending mail to it sends the message to about 700 people -- it does not send a command to the listserv program) HAPPY FRIDAY! Linda ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:40:59 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Rebecca Levins, RSR Corporation" Subject: environmental mailing lists Comments: To: "List, Safety" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone (don't know who, delete key in to much action) asked for environmental mailing lists. Below are the only ones I know of: ChemAlliance site, you can find it at: http://www.chemalliance.org/ There have been a few emails recently dealing with items related to the Dangerous Goods Industry, if it is any future help to the list, I have created a Listserver dealing exclusively in this area, if your query is in this realm, please feel free to cross post to this server at , or subscribe at Environ-Safety has been created for the discussion of occupational health and safety issues associated with hazardous waste operations and emergency response. All individuals interested in or having responsibilities for compliance with OSHA standard 1910.120 are invited to subscribe. If you ever want to subscribe to this mailing list, send to the following command in the body of your email message: subscribe environ-safety If you ever need to get in contact with the owner of the list, (if you have trouble unsubscribing, or have questions about the list itself) send email to . This is the general rule for most mailing lists when you need to contact a human. HazMat has been set up as an electronic forum for the discussion of issues relevant to hazardous materials. Archives of this list are available at http://rikki.ColoradoCollege.edu/ListArchives/HAZMAT-L/ LAB-XL is an electronic mailing list organized for the purpose of discussing the development of performance-oriented environmental regulations for laboratory workplaces. Background information about the issues involved can be found at http://esf.uvm.edu/labxl The EPA puts out a few, that I can send the signup info on, but they are not interactive. They are just info updates from them. Best regards, Rebecca Levins Environmental, Health & Safety Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:02:41 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Ray Campbell Subject: Re: Help with UNSUBSCRIBE In-Reply-To: <71EC0B6488F7D211B0AB00805FC736D82D3DFD@CSMEX118> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Was it something that I said? At 01:34 PM 9/10/99 -0700, you wrote: >Need to UNSUBSCRIBE from this list for a while >Anyone know how? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ray Campbell [mailto:ray.campbell@VARIANINC.COM] >Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 12:32 PM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject: Re: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps > > >Also FTS Systems manufactures vacuum vapor traps capable of -100C. I have >four which I use daily for Methylene Chloride. The number is 914-687-0071. > >Ray Campbell REA CHO >310-257-1080 > >At 02:26 PM 9/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Nadine, >> >>I have used pumps for many solvent evaporations. I would recommend looking >>into an alternate solvent(s) for the extraction as a first step to improve >>the safety. Second, I would also require that a cold trap be used before >>and in-line with the pump. >> >>Kay Lampe Hannasch >>Safety Manager - Research Laboratories >>Pioneer Hi-Bred International, Inc. >> >>e-mail: LampeHannKM@phibred.com >> >>"The opinions expressed here are mine, not that of my employer." >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Nadine Grady [mailto:ngrady@WHITWORTH.EDU] >>Sent: September 10, 1999 1:23 PM >>To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >>Subject: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps >> >> >>During a recent remodeling, a piped vacuum system was installed in our >>Science Bldg. In previous years the Organic Chem professor had students >>evaporate solvents from their synthesized products under vacuum provided by >>water aspirators. Now he wants to do the same thing using the piped vacuum >>system. This would take flammable vapors, usually ethyl ether or methylene >>chloride, through the pump. The electrical panel and solenoids on the pump >>are not explosion-proofed. The pump manufacturer has provided me a >chemical >>resistance chart for the Viton pump seals. Their resistance to ether and >>methylene chloride is rated as "fair" and "good" respectively. They have >no >>estimate of failure time, except that it would be shorter with a higher >>concentration of chemical. The prof insists that using the vacuum for >>evaporation is necessary in order for students to complete the lab in the >>time allotted. Total amount evaporated during one lab period (probably >>during the last hour) would be about 750-800 mL of either ether or >methylene >>chloride. >> >>Have any of you had experience with pulling flammable vapors through vacuum >>pumps? Can you make any helpful comments or recommendations? >> >>************************************************************** >>Nadine B. Grady, MS, CIH >>Chemical Hygiene Officer, Whitworth College >>300 W. Hawthorne Rd., Spokane, WA 99251-3903 >>Tel: (509) 777-4510 Fax: (509) 777-3221 >>ngrady@whitworth.edu >>******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:14:57 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Fleming, Douglas" Subject: Re: Help with UNSUBSCRIBE No Ray, Just going an a sabbatical and don't want my e-mail so full I can't open it when I return! -----Original Message----- From: Ray Campbell [mailto:ray.campbell@VARIANINC.COM] Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 3:03 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Help with UNSUBSCRIBE Was it something that I said? At 01:34 PM 9/10/99 -0700, you wrote: >Need to UNSUBSCRIBE from this list for a while >Anyone know how? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ray Campbell [mailto:ray.campbell@VARIANINC.COM] >Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 12:32 PM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject: Re: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps > > >Also FTS Systems manufactures vacuum vapor traps capable of -100C. I have >four which I use daily for Methylene Chloride. The number is 914-687-0071. > >Ray Campbell REA CHO >310-257-1080 > >At 02:26 PM 9/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Nadine, >> >>I have used pumps for many solvent evaporations. I would recommend looking >>into an alternate solvent(s) for the extraction as a first step to improve >>the safety. Second, I would also require that a cold trap be used before >>and in-line with the pump. >> >>Kay Lampe Hannasch >>Safety Manager - Research Laboratories >>Pioneer Hi-Bred International, Inc. >> >>e-mail: LampeHannKM@phibred.com >> >>"The opinions expressed here are mine, not that of my employer." >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Nadine Grady [mailto:ngrady@WHITWORTH.EDU] >>Sent: September 10, 1999 1:23 PM >>To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >>Subject: Flammable Vapors & Vacuum Pumps >> >> >>During a recent remodeling, a piped vacuum system was installed in our >>Science Bldg. In previous years the Organic Chem professor had students >>evaporate solvents from their synthesized products under vacuum provided by >>water aspirators. Now he wants to do the same thing using the piped vacuum >>system. This would take flammable vapors, usually ethyl ether or methylene >>chloride, through the pump. The electrical panel and solenoids on the pump >>are not explosion-proofed. The pump manufacturer has provided me a >chemical >>resistance chart for the Viton pump seals. Their resistance to ether and >>methylene chloride is rated as "fair" and "good" respectively. They have >no >>estimate of failure time, except that it would be shorter with a higher >>concentration of chemical. The prof insists that using the vacuum for >>evaporation is necessary in order for students to complete the lab in the >>time allotted. Total amount evaporated during one lab period (probably >>during the last hour) would be about 750-800 mL of either ether or >methylene >>chloride. >> >>Have any of you had experience with pulling flammable vapors through vacuum >>pumps? Can you make any helpful comments or recommendations? >> >>************************************************************** >>Nadine B. Grady, MS, CIH >>Chemical Hygiene Officer, Whitworth College >>300 W. Hawthorne Rd., Spokane, WA 99251-3903 >>Tel: (509) 777-4510 Fax: (509) 777-3221 >>ngrady@whitworth.edu >>******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:06:02 -0700 Reply-To: techton@pop.ihug.co.nz Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: new CHO with questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the discussion on Bleach concentrations is confused by what is bleach. Domestic Bleach is often only about 5% Sodium Hypochlorite. This typically is diluted 10:1 or more. ie Down to about 0.5%. 20% is a Corrosive and even 5% will produce irritation. Cheers Tony ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 03:58:20 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: Taste of chemicals In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:19 PM 9/9/99 -0400, you wrote: >When I took the (mandatory) eighth grade science class at my junior high >school, one of the experiments involved tasting (very) dilute solutions of >acids (HCl, sulfuric, acetic), bases (sodium bicarbonate, NaOH, KOH) and >various salts (I don't remember them all, but there were several potassium >salts). This was to give us one more way to characterize the compounds. >That was twenty-five years ago. When my daughter went through the same >grade five years ago, no such experiment was performed. I still vividly >remember the contrast of the tastes of the acids and bases. At the time I >thought it was pretty cool. > >Just a little history! > >Tammy Tayman > I too recall similar. For those who object to tasting anything in the lab, have them taste vinegar and sodium bicarbonate (or tooth paste made with same) in home ec, or some non 'chemical' site. Illustrates more than pH paper will. (Reminds me, had a typist once who insisted on "correcting" my notation of pH to Ph.) Mary Ann Solstad, CIH 4 A's of Safety SOLSTAD Health & Safety Evaluations Attitude 16 Pequot Rd, Marblehead, MA 01945 Awareness 781-631-4748 tel, 781-631-1832 FAX Automatic Application Authority Past Chair, DivCHAS, ACS msolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:03:24 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Taste of chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-09-11 04:04:32 EDT, you write: << I too recall similar. For those who object to tasting anything in the lab, have them taste vinegar and sodium bicarbonate (or tooth paste made with same) in home ec, or some non 'chemical' site. Illustrates more than pH paper will. >> Hi NACHOs, I have a reservation about this suggestion. What student do on their own is their own business. What they do at home under the direction or suggestion of a teacher is likely to become the responsibility of the teacher and the school. Would a prudent person suggest that a student do something at home that they would not recommend being done in their presence? ... Jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:03:33 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help with UNSUBSCRIBE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-09-10 16:37:08 EDT, you write: << Need to UNSUBSCRIBE from this list for a while. Anyone know how? >> Hi NACHOs, If you are not planning on leaving the list but just want to shut if off for a few days, weeks, or months, please use the SET command .... SET LABSAFETY-L NOMAIL When you return, you turn it back on with ..... SET LABSAFETY-L MAIL As Linda pointed out, these commands are sent to ... LISTSERV@SIU.EDU ... Jim PS. If everyone finds at least 1/2 new NACHO member, we can reach 1000 by the end of the year. Question... Would you like to see a job listings page on the LABSAFETY.ORG web site? ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, Director The Laboratory Safety Workshop Safety in Science Education 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 labsafe@aol.com http://www.labsafety.org/ LSW is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, seminar schedule, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:03:30 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Taste of chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-09-09 17:17:51 EDT, you write: << When I took the (mandatory) eighth grade science class at my junior high school, one of the experiments involved tasting (very) dilute solutions of acids (HCl, sulfuric, acetic), bases (sodium bicarbonate, NaOH, KOH) and various salts (I don't remember them all, but there were several potassium salts). >> Hi NACHOs, I recall reading one accecdotal account where a teacher reported that a boy in her chemistry class came up at the end of the year and revealed: "I tasted everything you put out this year!" When asked why, he responded that he was curious to see what the stuff tasted like!!! ... Jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 23:17:19 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: Taste of chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > have them taste vinegar and sodium bicarbonate (or tooth paste made with > same) in home ec, or some non 'chemical' site What they do at home under the direction or suggestion > of a teacher is likely to become the responsibility of the teacher and the > school. Jim-- The suggestion was to do it in "home ec" as in home economics, i.e. a kitchen on campus. Julie O'Brien Archimica (Florida) and EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville afn35210@afn.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 23:32:58 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ice Machines for Lab Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-09-09 16:55:11 EDT, you write: << And, just my saying "Everyone else has this policy" goes over as well as when they say to me "No one else does it." They want proof. >> Hi NACHOs, You might consider siting 29CFR1910.141.g.2 or .4. These are the sections that prohibit the consumption and storage of food/beverages in places where there are hazardous chemicals. ....jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, Director The Laboratory Safety Workshop Safety in Science Education 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 Cell: 508-574-6264 Email: labsafe@aol.com Web Site: http://www.labsafety.org/ ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 23:33:37 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: LABORATORY LIABILITY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-09-09 13:51:35 EDT, you write: << The questions that the staff has posed are - 1. Are they (the professional staff or the institution) exempt from liability if the buddy system is in place? >> JAK: NO << 2. Would the cellular phone eliminate any liability? >> JAK: Very little if any. << My feeling is that a good attorney could make a case of negligence even if the student was accompanied by 5 others, wired with a top-way radio or telephone, and a surveilance camera as long as the instructor was not present. >> JAK: My guess is that even a bad one (attorney) could make the case. << I don't know of any law covering this type of liability, but I'm sure there is something. - Can anyone out there help with proper citations? >> JAK: This is tort law and negligence is the issue. Would a prudent/reasonable person do less than what the American Chemical Society recommends in "Safety in Academic Chemistry Laboratories"? This professional standard is very clear that undergratuates should be supervised at all times. Single copies are free. Call 1-800-ACS-5558. .... Jim (Maybe this is why Bob thinks I'm a "wanna be attorney". Actually, I'm a wanna be trombonist but unwilling to spend the time practicing! ) ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, Director The Laboratory Safety Workshop Safety in Science Education 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 Cell: 508-574-6264 Email: labsafe@aol.com Web Site: http://www.labsafety.org/ ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:19:09 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Administrative Reminders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi NACHOs Periodically, I'll post to the list this series of administrative reminders. These are some guidelines for use of LABSAFETY-L. If you have any suggestions for changes (additions or subtractions), please send them to me directly unless they are of general interest to the whole group. Thanks to Linda Swihart for help with compiling the list. ... jim Administrative Reminders..... 1. All messages should be related to lab safety or topics which will be of interest to chemical hygiene officers or lab safety professionals. Minimize tangential discussions. Please take them to private email. *** We will achieve a larger and more participative readership if we stick to this.*** 2. Please DO NOT send attachments to the list! They will bog down the mail server and fill the archives and digests with ASCII code. They will also be unreadable by many subscribers. If you have a file to share, announce its availability to the list, and attach it to private email to individuals who request it. (And the requests should be made in private email, not to the list.) 3. Keep in mind that when you REPLY to a message from the list, you will reply to the *entire* list, not just to the person to whose message you are replying. Usually. Keep an eye on which address appears in the "To:" box of your emailer when you press REPLY. 4. Please trim quoted text to a bare minumum when making replies. Everyone on the list receives every message, and you need only quote minimum pertinent parts to refresh the thread of discussion. At the same time, take care to keep quotes in context so as not to misrepresent another's remarks. 5. There are many excellent products and services that are available out there. LSW would like to encourage anyone who feels they have something of value for NACHO members to use LABSAFETY-L to let them know about the product or service. This policy is intentionally different from other discussion lists. It recognizes our need to solve lab safety/CHO problems with products and services as well as ideas. We also those who have used the product or service can comment on their experiences. Specific follow-up questions and requests should be directed personally and not to the discussion list. 6. Let's maintain a discussion environment that respects diverse points of views and opinions. Be patient, polite, and treat each other with kindness. 7. Membership in the National Assoiciation of Chemical Hygiene Officers (NACHO) is free and open to anyone who is a CHO or interested in lab safety issues. You join NACHO by subscribing to the LABSAFETY-L discussion list. LABSAFETY-L is a public service of the Laboratory Safety Workshop, the list owner. Please tell your friends and colleagues about NACHO and encourage them to join. 8. Typically many people on a list are "lurkers" (read but never post). LSW would like to encourage everyone to join in the conversation. If you have not yet participated, please post a short note introducing yourself and your interests in lab safety. The more active contributors can help encourage participation. Please continue the professional-while-cheerful demeanor and clear, readable messages which have characterized our first year. 9. No question is too basic for LABSAFETY-L. Some NACHO members have been in the field for a long time, others are just beginning. Welcome all new members and all questions. As we see recurring questions, let's develop FAQs for the web site. And, let's all learn to effectively use our archives. 10. Thank you for taking the time to review these reminders. Please share comments and suggestions directly with me. ... jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, President The Laboratory Safety Workshop Safety in Science Education 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 labsafe@aol.com http://www.labsafety.org/ LSW is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, seminar schedule, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:39:19 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Schultz William F Subject: Boodborne pathogens and disinfection with bleach MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have read 29 CFR 1910.1030 several times and can find no reference to decontamination materials or concentrations. If I am missing something I would appreciated someone listing a more precise citation. I find the discussion of bleach concentrations a little confusing since bleach comes in various concentrations. Common household bleach is about 5% while you can purchase concentrated bleach which is 12-13%. I believe the only accurate way to discuss the concentration is in parts per million (ppm). Common 5% bleach contains 50,000 ppm sodium hypochlorite. A 20% solution of 5% bleach contains 10,000 ppm sodium hypochlorite. A 2% solution of 5% bleach contains 1,000 ppm sodium hypochlorite. A 1% solution of 5% bleach contains 500 ppm sodium hypochlorite. The way I understand the process any dilution may be fine for individual use depending on the concentration of organisms present in or on the material to be disinfected. For a high concentration of organisms you could use either a small quantity of a solution containing a high percentage of sodium hypochlorite or a large quantity of a solution containing a low percentage of sodium hypochlorite. In most spill situations the area is surface decontaminated by wiping up the small spill with a rag wetted with the sodium hypochlorite solution. In this instance there is very little contact time between the surface and the decontaminating solution due to evaporation. In this case I believe a high concentration solution is more effective. Bill Schultz USAMRIID ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:02:18 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Schultz William F Subject: Disposal of liquids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The following excerpts from our policy on disposal of chemicals may be of some use for the question of how various laboratories are disposing of liquids. 4. POLICY a. All aerosol containers (full, partially empty or empty) are regulated as hazardous waste by the EPA and shall be turned in to the Material Control Branch, Logistics Division (MCBLD), for disposal. b. All excess and spent hazardous chemicals will be turned in to the MCBLD for disposal. c. All excess and spent chemicals in the solid form will be turned into the MCBLD for disposal. d. A chemical in the liquid form which does not meet any of the criteria specified in 3.b. may be disposed of down a drain while flushing with copious amounts of water. e. When any or all properties of a chemical are doubtful or questionable, turn the chemical in to the MCBLD for disposal. This especially applies to chemical mixtures. 3. DEFINITIONS b. Hazardous Chemical: A chemical that meets any of the following criteria is determined to be hazardous: (1) Any chemical for which there is scientifically valid evidence that it is a combustible liquid, a compressed gas, explosive, flammable, an organic peroxide, an oxidizer, pyrophoric, unstable (reactive), or reacts violently with water. (2) Any chemical, for which there is statistically significant evidence based on at least one study conducted in accordance with established scientific principles that acute or chronic health effects may occur in exposed employees. (3) Any chemical for which the evaluation performed by the chemical manufacturer/importer, as listed on the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS), indicates it is hazardous. (4) Any chemical regulated by U.S. Department of Transportation, Title 49 Code of Federal Regulations Subchapter C, Parts 171-172 (Hazardous Material Regulations). (5) Any chemical regulated by U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Title 40 Code of Federal Regulations, Parts 260-266 (Resource Conservation and Recovery Act). (6) Any chemical regulated by Occupational Health and Safety Administration, Title 29 Code of Federal Regulations Subpart Z (Toxic and Hazardous Substances). (7) Any chemical which is capable of causing environmental or health damage if disposed of improperly as specified in U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Title 40 Code of Federal Regulations (Resource Conservation and Recovery Act) Liquids can be tricky. I was questioned about whether or not a case of disinfectant hand soap could be poured down the drain. The soap had an expiration date on the label that had been exceeded. The MSDS for the soap revealed that it was 70% alcohol and had to be disposed of as a hazardous waste. That I hadn't expected but it does show that there is a difference between putting the small quantity of the soap used for washing your hands down the drain as compared to disposing of a bottle or case of the soap down the drain. Bill Schultz USAMRIID ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:02:02 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Byington Organization: The University of Memphis Subject: Re: Boodborne pathogens and disinfection with bleach MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are no concentrations for disinfectants found within the regulation. A 10% solution of common household bleach is commonly used. Schultz William F wrote: > > I have read 29 CFR 1910.1030 several times and can find no reference to > decontamination materials or concentrations. If I am missing something I > would appreciated someone listing a more precise citation. > > I find the discussion of bleach concentrations a little confusing since > bleach comes in various concentrations. Common household bleach is about 5% > while you can purchase concentrated bleach which is 12-13%. I believe the > only accurate way to discuss the concentration is in parts per million > (ppm). > > Common 5% bleach contains 50,000 ppm sodium hypochlorite. > > A 20% solution of 5% bleach contains 10,000 ppm sodium hypochlorite. > > A 2% solution of 5% bleach contains 1,000 ppm sodium hypochlorite. > > A 1% solution of 5% bleach contains 500 ppm sodium hypochlorite. > > The way I understand the process any dilution may be fine for individual use > depending on the concentration of organisms present in or on the material to > be disinfected. For a high concentration of organisms you could use either > a small quantity of a solution containing a high percentage of sodium > hypochlorite or a large quantity of a solution containing a low percentage > of sodium hypochlorite. > > In most spill situations the area is surface decontaminated by wiping up the > small spill with a rag wetted with the sodium hypochlorite solution. In > this instance there is very little contact time between the surface and the > decontaminating solution due to evaporation. In this case I believe a high > concentration solution is more effective. > > Bill Schultz > USAMRIID -- Bob Byington Laboratory Safety Specialist,WebMaster Environmental Health and Safety 210B Old Brister Library The University of Memphis Memphis, TN 38152-6191 (901) 678-4672 fax (901) 678-4673 rbyingtn@memphis.edu homepage: http://www.people.memphis.edu/~ehas personal: http://www.people.memphis.edu/~rbyingtn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:22:38 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Herbert Carpenter Subject: Re: Boodborne pathogens and disinfection with bleach In the preamble to the final rule, OSHA explained that they refused to specify what an "appropriate" disinfectant was because it was a performance oriented standard and requirements would vary, to use their example, between what was appropriate for the floor in a laboratory and what was needed in an operatory. They make liberal reference to using the CDC guidelines, but said that "Specifying particular disinfectants and procedures in final may have the effect of limiting the use of new products and of discouraging the development of new information relative to adequate decontamination." Herb Carpenter Army Crime Lab > ---------- > From: Schultz William F[SMTP:William.Schultz@DET.AMEDD.ARMY.MIL] > Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 9:39 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Boodborne pathogens and disinfection with bleach > > I have read 29 CFR 1910.1030 several times and can find no reference to > decontamination materials or concentrations. If I am missing something I > would appreciated someone listing a more precise citation. > > I find the discussion of bleach concentrations a little confusing since > bleach comes in various concentrations. Common household bleach is about > 5% > while you can purchase concentrated bleach which is 12-13%. I believe the > only accurate way to discuss the concentration is in parts per million > (ppm). > > Common 5% bleach contains 50,000 ppm sodium hypochlorite. > > A 20% solution of 5% bleach contains 10,000 ppm sodium hypochlorite. > > A 2% solution of 5% bleach contains 1,000 ppm sodium hypochlorite. > > A 1% solution of 5% bleach contains 500 ppm sodium hypochlorite. > > The way I understand the process any dilution may be fine for individual > use > depending on the concentration of organisms present in or on the material > to > be disinfected. For a high concentration of organisms you could use > either > a small quantity of a solution containing a high percentage of sodium > hypochlorite or a large quantity of a solution containing a low percentage > of sodium hypochlorite. > > In most spill situations the area is surface decontaminated by wiping up > the > small spill with a rag wetted with the sodium hypochlorite solution. In > this instance there is very little contact time between the surface and > the > decontaminating solution due to evaporation. In this case I believe a > high > concentration solution is more effective. > > Bill Schultz > USAMRIID > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:22:57 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Gonzalez, Lisa" Subject: Re: Boodborne pathogens and disinfection with bleach MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "I have read 29 CFR 1910.1030 several times and can find no reference to decontamination materials or concentrations. If I am missing something I would appreciated someone listing a more precise citation." You are correct, 29CFR1910.1030 refers to the concept of universal precautions. Universal precautions dictates the decontaminating agents and concentrations. I have an old copy (1990) and that is what I referenced in an earlier email. CDC guidelines are also used (as quoted). Lisa A. Gonzalez, NRCC-CHO R&D Safety and Health Officer lisa.gonzalez@pharma.com I find the discussion of bleach concentrations a little confusing since bleach comes in various concentrations. Common household bleach is about 5% while you can purchase concentrated bleach which is 12-13%. I believe the only accurate way to discuss the concentration is in parts per million (ppm). Common 5% bleach contains 50,000 ppm sodium hypochlorite. A 20% solution of 5% bleach contains 10,000 ppm sodium hypochlorite. A 2% solution of 5% bleach contains 1,000 ppm sodium hypochlorite. A 1% solution of 5% bleach contains 500 ppm sodium hypochlorite. The way I understand the process any dilution may be fine for individual use depending on the concentration of organisms present in or on the material to be disinfected. For a high concentration of organisms you could use either a small quantity of a solution containing a high percentage of sodium hypochlorite or a large quantity of a solution containing a low percentage of sodium hypochlorite. In most spill situations the area is surface decontaminated by wiping up the small spill with a rag wetted with the sodium hypochlorite solution. In this instance there is very little contact time between the surface and the decontaminating solution due to evaporation. In this case I believe a high concentration solution is more effective. Bill Schultz USAMRIID ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:26:26 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: Boodborne pathogens and disinfection with bleach Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> Schultz William F - 9/13/99 9:39 AM >>> I have read 29 CFR 1910.1030 several times and can find no reference to decontamination materials or concentrations. If I am missing something I would appreciated someone listing a more precise citation. >>>> The BBP standard does not specify concentrations for decontamination. The proffs I work with have done studies on enteric virus for the EPA and the US geologic survey and have determined through experimentation that a solution containing 1000ppm of sodium hypochlorite in contact with contaminated surfaces for 5 minutes will inactivate virus. Sorry if my original post was too general on the issue of concentration. One should also keep in mind that all pathogens are not created equal. Bloodborne virus tend to be much more susceptible to their environment than enteric and therefore more easily deactivated or "killed". Bacteria are another whole group of organisms with varying abilities to cause disease in humans. You need to evaluate the risks for pathogens in a case by case situation just like you do for chemicals used in the lab. Does the risk associated with working with Human blood or blood components in an undergraduate course out weigh the educational value of the experiment? There are many good substitutes available these days for undergrad lab experiences. Again, sorry for generalizing and assuming that "Clorox" means the same thing to everyone. Hope this helps, Janeen. :):):):):):):):):):):):) Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:22:36 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Caracappa, Peter F (CRD)" Subject: FW: Surplus uranyl-nitrate - Let's Talk If I read my 10 CFR 40.13 correctly, I don't see anything about Uranyl Acetate being exempt, unless it contains less than one twentieth of one percent of Uranium (which it certainly may). And if it is less than 1/20 of 1% source material, as far as any regulation I can find, it can be disposed of in an unregulated manner - which can cause a little trouble if your TSD has a really good radiation detector. We ran into this problem recently when we disposed of an air receiver that had been used in a sandblasting operation, that was disposed of while full of the sand shot. It got rejected at the Port of Albany for radiation (about 100 microR on contact) - and what nobody noticed until it was all over was the line hidden in the middle of the MSDS for the shot that said "this material may contain up to 0.05% natural uranium and thorium compounds" and made reference to some section of the California Sate Public Code. So is there some other exemption for Uranyl Acetate/Nitrate that I am missing? Is it maybe a state regulation? Peter Caracappa g GE Corporate Research & Development ______________________________________________ Peter F. Caracappa Environment, Health, and Safety Tele: 518-387-4221 Dial Comm: 8*833-4221 Fax: 518-387-6335 email: caracappa@crd.ge.com ---------- From: Tonry Louie L MAJ [SMTP:Louie.Tonry@se.amedd.army.mil] Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 12:18 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Surplus uranyl-nitrate - Let's Talk Uranyl Acetate is EXEMPT. This is a question for the group. The chemical companies sell this stuff without any license required however, trying to get rid of it continues to pose problems. If it is exempt, why can't it be disposed as regular chemical waste? Why do we always have problems trying to dispose of it? As indicated in the message below, "...someone who is authorized to possess this material", anyone is authorized to possess it. Anyone! Let's discuss this issue a little and see if we can reach a consensus about the proper and required disposal method for Uranyl acetate/nitrate. Louie Tonry, CHP -----Original Message----- From: JHageman@swri.edu [ mailto:JHageman@swri.edu] Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 10:56 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Surplus uranyl-nitrate Southwest Research has about 11 pounds of surplus uranyl-nitrate in unopened containers. If there is someone who is authorized to possess this material and would like to recycle it, please call or email me at 210-522-2633 or jph@swri.edu . Thanks, John P. Hageman, Radiation Safety Officer, Southwest Research Institute. ************************************************************************ The RADSAFE Frequently Asked Questions list, archives and subscription information can be accessed at http://www.ehs.uiuc.edu/~rad/radsafe.html ************************************************************************ The RADSAFE Frequently Asked Questions list, archives and subscription information can be accessed at http://www.ehs.uiuc.edu/~rad/radsafe.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:58:16 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Liquid nitrogen/copper with brazed fittings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, Curious to know if anyone has any experience using brazed copper fittings onto brass threaded fittings and used in liquid nitrogen supply. We have a situation where a lab wants to use a temporary "elbow" fitting/system on an LN60 tank and wants our maintenance shop to make it. But I have apprehensions about how it'll hold up with the cold and wrenching.There's a relief valve down stream which will vent @ 22psi so pressure is not a concern. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:58:14 -0300 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Aziz M. Abu-khalaf" Subject: Checklists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I know this subject has been discussed before. I am sorry I could not read any of the attachments. I am looking for the web site. Any help is appreciated. **************************************************************************** ******* Aziz M. Abu-Khalaf ***** Tel: 00966 1 4676894 Chemical Engineering Department ***** Fax: 00966 1 4678770 King Saud University ***** E-mail: amkhalaf@ksu.edu.sa PO Box 800 ***** Riyadh 11421, Saudi Arabia ***** **************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:39:22 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: debi Ingrao Organization: Mote Marine Laboratory Subject: Safety Position MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH AND SAFETY COORDINATOR MOTE MARINE LABORATORY and AQUARIUM Sarasota, Florida POSITION Full-time Environmental Health and Safety Coordinator. COMPANY OVERVIEW Mote Marine Laboratory and Aquarium is a growth oriented independent, nonprofit research organization dedicated to excellence in marine and environmental research locally as well as internationally. We can be distinguished from other marine laboratories by being one of the few facilities which is both a scientific research organization and a public attraction. Mote Marine Laboratory and Aquarium is located in Sarasota, Florida. In addition to the main research and aquarium campus, Mote Marine Laboratory has two offsite campuses - one at Port Manatee and one in the Florida Keys. The research activities include the use of many different chemicals, field work, extensive worldwide travel, operation of vessels and vehicles. We also offer various education and intern programs for students and adults. Mote Marine Laboratory and Aquarium has a staff of 145 full time and part-time employees and more than 1800 volunteers. Attendance at the aquarium is expected to exceed 400,000 in 1999. QUALIFICATIONS Qualified candidates for this position will have a Bachelors Degree in Environmental Health, Occupational Health and Safety, or a related area. Minimum of two years prior experience required. Must demonstrate knowledge and experience in the identification and evaluation of health and safety hazard and current federal, state and local legal requirements, guidelines, and prudent practices applying to health and safety issues. Knowledge of building and life safety codes and hazardous waste management is critical. Must have experience in design and performance of effective safety surveys, and the ability to evaluate the results of such surveys and communicate findings in an effective, positive manner. The qualified candidate must demonstrate the skills and ability to work independently, have excellent interpersonal oral and written communication skills, computer skills, and be able to organize, present and evaluate classes, seminars and required training. Must have a valid Driver's license. JOB DESCRIPTION The Environmental Health and Safety Officer will develop, coordinate and manage the comprehensive Environmental Health and Safety Program at all Mote Marine Laboratory and Aquarium campuses. The successful candidate will oversee compliance with federal, state and local laws and regulations related to life, fire and environmental safety. He/she will be responsible for the development and implementation of Safety Policies and Guidelines; reassessing and implementing the Emergency Preparedness Plan( including hurricanes and tornados) annually; serve as Radiation Officer, conduct and oversee training programs; provide technical assistance for staff regarding safety issues; develop a personnel Safety Manual and in-house Safety Web site, and other duties as assigned. SALARY RANGE Commensurate with education and experience. BENEFITS Group medical and hospitalization insurance, group life insurance, retirement plan Worker's Compensation, sick leave and annual leave, unemployment compensation. APPLICATION DEADLINE October 15, 1999 APPLICATION INSTRUCTIONS Please send a letter of application, resume, and three references including name, address and phone number by regular mail (we are unable to accept fax or email applications) to the following address: Mote Marine Laboratory 1600 Ken Thompson Parkway Sarasota, Florida 34236 Attention: debi Ingrao Fax: (941) 388-4312 Visit http://www.mote.org/job-adds/Coordinatoremployeeclassification.phtml or www.mote.org (Select Administration then position) Mote Marine Laboratory and Aquarium is an equal opportunity employer, complies with the American with Disabilities Act, and is a Drug-Free Work Place. Offer of employment contingent upon the verification of individual's eligibility for employment in the United States. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:55:06 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Nochromix vs. Chromerge In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Friends, I'm looking at a product called "Nochromix®", which is sold as an alternative to Chromerge ( a mix of high concentration chromic and sulfuric acid), used to clean glassware for certain purposes. Nochromix is a powdered, propietary "peroxygen" compound that is mixed with sulfuric acid to make a cleaning solution. I guess it provides the oxidizing action that chromic acid would otherwise bring to the mix. My question is: Has anyone had experience with this product? Is it as effective as Chromerge? My objective is to remove chromic acid from the process due to its carcinogenicity, and to remove the chromium (heavy metal) from the acid waste stream. I realize this stuff ain't Windex® - it's still a corrosive liquid. Thanks, Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:00:32 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Gillian Gardner Subject: Re: Nochromix vs. Chromerge In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I use Nochromix and have done so for about 8 years. It works great!! Gillian Gardner Lewis & Clark College On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Don Abramowitz wrote: > Friends, > > I'm looking at a product called "Nochromix®", which is sold as an > alternative to Chromerge ( a mix of high concentration chromic and sulfuric > acid), used to clean glassware for certain purposes. > > Nochromix is a powdered, propietary "peroxygen" compound that is mixed with > sulfuric acid to make a cleaning solution. I guess it provides the > oxidizing action that chromic acid would otherwise bring to the mix. > > My question is: Has anyone had experience with this product? Is it as > effective as Chromerge? > > My objective is to remove chromic acid from the process due to its > carcinogenicity, and to remove the chromium (heavy metal) from the acid > waste stream. I realize this stuff ain't Windex® - it's still a corrosive > liquid. > > Thanks, > Don > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Donald Abramowitz, CIH > Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer > > Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College > 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue > Bryn Mawr PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:28:28 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Amy Gregory Subject: Purchasing Chemicals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would like the group's advice! There is a student at the college who would like to order some chemicals to work on a project at her home. She wants to purchase them, but the vendor will not let her unless the chemicals are sent to an institution. The chemicals are Kerosene, Borax, Lye and Formaldehyde. I'm not sure if I feel comfortable using the institution as the receiver. And, I definitely do not feel comfortable with an order of Formaldehyde. We do encourage outside projects at our college. Furthermore, this particular student was a pharmacist in Russia. What is my duty as a CHO? Thanks in advance for your help. Amy R. Gregory Lab Manager/NRCC--CHO UC/Clermont College ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:33:51 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Ray Campbell Subject: Re: Purchasing Chemicals In-Reply-To: <199909141513.LAA09833@newman.bch.uc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just say no. At 12:28 PM 9/14/99 -0400, you wrote: >I would like the group's advice! > >There is a student at the college who would like to order some chemicals to >work on a project at her home. She wants to purchase them, but the vendor >will not let her unless the chemicals are sent to an institution. The >chemicals are Kerosene, Borax, Lye and Formaldehyde. I'm not sure if I >feel comfortable using the institution as the receiver. And, I definitely >do not feel comfortable with an order of Formaldehyde. We do encourage >outside projects at our college. Furthermore, this particular student was >a pharmacist in Russia. What is my duty as a CHO? > > >Thanks in advance for your help. > >Amy R. Gregory >Lab Manager/NRCC--CHO >UC/Clermont College ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:45:55 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Karen Glover Organization: Clarke College Subject: Re: Purchasing Chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------376EE3F979BC5CCBF8CDD610" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------376EE3F979BC5CCBF8CDD610 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I personally would not allow the institution to receive chemicals for a student's use at home. We have a policy prohibiting exactly this type of usage. The institution would be liable, should anything happen. Once purchased by the institution, my understanding is that these chemicals belong to that institution indefinitely. (Correct me if I'm misled here.) That the student was a pharmacist or doctor or chemist or whatever should not be relevant to the decision. This is my two cents worth. Amy Gregory wrote: > I would like the group's advice! > > There is a student at the college who would like to order some chemicals to > work on a project at her home. She wants to purchase them, but the vendor > will not let her unless the chemicals are sent to an institution. The > chemicals are Kerosene, Borax, Lye and Formaldehyde. I'm not sure if I > feel comfortable using the institution as the receiver. And, I definitely > do not feel comfortable with an order of Formaldehyde. We do encourage > outside projects at our college. Furthermore, this particular student was > a pharmacist in Russia. What is my duty as a CHO? > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > Amy R. Gregory > Lab Manager/NRCC--CHO > UC/Clermont College --------------376EE3F979BC5CCBF8CDD610 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="kglover.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Karen Glover Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="kglover.vcf" begin:vcard n:Glover;Karen tel;work:(319) 588-8139 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.clarke.edu org:Clarke College;Chemistry version:2.1 email;internet:kglover@keller.clarke.edu title:Assistant Professor of Chemistry adr;quoted-printable:;;MS#1597=0D=0AClarke College;Dubuque;IA;52001; fn:Karen Glover end:vcard --------------376EE3F979BC5CCBF8CDD610-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:44:01 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: Purchasing Chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Just say NO! I wouldn't open up myself to the liability. Kerosene is available in gas stations, borax and lye in the supermarket. Formaldehyde may be available in a drug store, for application to feet for blister prevention. "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Amy Gregory [mailto:cordisar@EMAIL.UC.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 12:28 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Purchasing Chemicals I would like the group's advice! There is a student at the college who would like to order some chemicals to work on a project at her home. She wants to purchase them, but the vendor will not let her unless the chemicals are sent to an institution. The chemicals are Kerosene, Borax, Lye and Formaldehyde. I'm not sure if I feel comfortable using the institution as the receiver. And, I definitely do not feel comfortable with an order of Formaldehyde. We do encourage outside projects at our college. Furthermore, this particular student was a pharmacist in Russia. What is my duty as a CHO? Thanks in advance for your help. Amy R. Gregory Lab Manager/NRCC--CHO UC/Clermont College ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:01:24 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Subject: Re(2): Purchasing Chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ray.campbell@VARIANINC.COM writes: >Just say no. > Ditto. Teresa Robertson CSUB > > >At 12:28 PM 9/14/99 -0400, you wrote: >>I would like the group's advice! >> >>There is a student at the college who would like to order some chemicals >to >>work on a project at her home. She wants to purchase them, but the >vendor >>will not let her unless the chemicals are sent to an institution. The >>chemicals are Kerosene, Borax, Lye and Formaldehyde. I'm not sure if I >>feel comfortable using the institution as the receiver. And, I >definitely >>do not feel comfortable with an order of Formaldehyde. We do encourage >>outside projects at our college. Furthermore, this particular student >was >>a pharmacist in Russia. What is my duty as a CHO? >> >> >>Thanks in advance for your help. >> >>Amy R. Gregory >>Lab Manager/NRCC--CHO >>UC/Clermont College ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:31:25 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Melonee Cruse Organization: Chaffey College Subject: Re: Purchasing MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello Good People, We have a procedure at our Community College that might be of interest when selling or giving chemicals to the public. There are many K-12 schools that have Science Fairs. Many times they will come to us asking for small (no more than 5 grams) quantities of chemicals and/or want to borrow our supplies. Our policy is to have a letter from the school listing the materials needed, stating WHY and HOW they will be used, and signed by the principal. We then call the school and verify the student and the project. If the projects involves chemicals we make them read the MSDS (and they get a copy) and we verbally explain the contents of the MSDS. We also tell them how to safely dispose of the waste, which may require that they bring it back to us. We have never given hazardous materials to a student and we always involve a parent. Next we have an instructor discuss the project and the safety of the project with the parents and the student and then have everyone sign our check-off list. If we feel the project is dangerous, we advise them to modify it or we do not release the chemicals or equipment. Sometimes they must leave a deposit for equipment (i.e. a stirrer or certain glassware). Also we only release the material approved by the principal of the school. We do not sell chemicals to the public for personal use. On occasion we have given supplies to local professionals (i.e. test tubes to a doctor or dentist office). I do not recommend you sell, order or give chemicals to the public for private use. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:08:58 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: PATRICIA BARKER Organization: Wabash College Subject: Re: Nochromix vs. Chromerge In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Don, I have used the Nochromix. How fast do you want it to act? It usually takes bewteen 24 and 48 hrs for it to do any good for me. No, it is not as good as Chromerge. Pat ********************************************************************** Patricia Barker Barkerp@Wabash.edu Curator, Chemistry Department Phone 765-361-6207 Wabash College 301 West Wabash Ave Fax 765-361-6340 Crawfordsville, IN 47933 8:-) ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:21:12 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Amy Gregory Subject: Re: Nochromix vs. Chromerge In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We went through the change-over about 2 years ago. I compared Nochromix to Contrad 70 to use in our pipet bath. They are both environmentally better, but Nochromix required the use of conc. Sulfuric Acid. Whereas, Contrad 70 (available from Fisher) requires the use of deionized water. The pros and cons are as follows: 1. Nochromix would be costly. 1-2 packages/5 pints of acid. Each pint of acid costs approximately $5.00. Nochromix is most effective for 1 week. If you plan to use it on a weekly (or daily) basis, the cost would be $100 plus the cost for the Nochromix per month. If you do your own neutralizing, you would have to purchase enough alkaline to do the trick. If you send it out for disposal, the disposal company would charge a fee. 2. Nochromix works a little better. Nochromix does tend to work better on the stuck-on residue. Contrad 70 is more like a strong detergent and is not an inorganic oxidizer. Contrad 70 would work well with an ultrasonic cleaner. 3. Contrad 70 is cheaper and works better than a detergent Contrad 70 is biodegradable and can be neutralized with Bleach. A 5% solution of Contrad 70 works effectively as long as it retains a pH of 9.0 (sometimes lasts longer than 3 months). Since you use deionzed water for the solution and bleach for neutralization, it costs very little. It will remove recent residue off of glassware. But some residue (like some proteins) may require a strong oxidizer. So far, Contrad 70 has worked great for our purpose! Good Luck on the transformation! Amy R. Gregory Lab Manager/NRCC--CHO Univ. of Cin./Clermont College At 11:55 AM 09/14/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Friends, > >I'm looking at a product called "Nochromix®", which is sold as an >alternative to Chromerge ( a mix of high concentration chromic and sulfuric >acid), used to clean glassware for certain purposes. > >Nochromix is a powdered, propietary "peroxygen" compound that is mixed with >sulfuric acid to make a cleaning solution. I guess it provides the >oxidizing action that chromic acid would otherwise bring to the mix. > >My question is: Has anyone had experience with this product? Is it as >effective as Chromerge? > >My objective is to remove chromic acid from the process due to its >carcinogenicity, and to remove the chromium (heavy metal) from the acid >waste stream. I realize this stuff ain't Windex® - it's still a corrosive >liquid. > >Thanks, > Don > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Donald Abramowitz, CIH > Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer > > Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College > 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue > Bryn Mawr PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:32:46 -0500 Reply-To: Fawn LeMay Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Fawn LeMay Subject: Mercury Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK NACHOs I need some advice. I discovered an old bottle of mercury in our high school chemical storage area that only had a cork in it. It was quite apparent to me that some of the mercury was vaporizing into the air because I could see that the mercury had worked its way into the cork. I put the bottle into another jar, sealed it, and currently have it stored out of the building until I can find someone to take it off our hands. I've requested that our principal have the air tested, not just for the mercury but just for quality in general (our air handling system hasn't been working properly, and temp and humidity levels have been quite high ... I know the humidity has affected several chemicals, I don't know what may have evaporated into the air.) My questions ... am I being overly cautious in requesting that the air be tested? Could a toxic level of mercury vapor have actually escaped through that cork? My school district is small. We do not have an OSHA rep, and I am not trained in this at all. Any suggestions, opinions, or thoughts from those more experienced would be greatly appreciated. Fawn R. LeMay flemay@esu3.esu3.k12.ne.us Science Teacher Plattsmouth High School Plattsmouth, NE 68048 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 18:53:49 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Henry Boyter Jr." Subject: Re: Mercury Question Comments: To: Fawn LeMay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good idea to test for liability purposes. Probably no mercury problem, but best to cover one's backside. I would also have one or two surface wipes conducted for mercury to determine if there is dermal exposure. Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational purposes only and should not be used as advice. No warranty or expression of professionalism is implied. ***************************************************************** -----Original Message----- From: Fawn LeMay To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 6:39 PM Subject: Mercury Question OK NACHOs I need some advice. I discovered an old bottle of mercury in our high school chemical storage area that only had a cork in it. It was quite apparent to me that some of the mercury was vaporizing into the air because I could see that the mercury had worked its way into the cork. I put the bottle into another jar, sealed it, and currently have it stored out of the building until I can find someone to take it off our hands. I've requested that our principal have the air tested, not just for the mercury but just for quality in general (our air handling system hasn't been working properly, and temp and humidity levels have been quite high ... I know the humidity has affected several chemicals, I don't know what may have evaporated into the air.) My questions ... am I being overly cautious in requesting that the air be tested? Could a toxic level of mercury vapor have actually escaped through that cork? My school district is small. We do not have an OSHA rep, and I am not trained in this at all. Any suggestions, opinions, or thoughts from those more experienced would be greatly appreciated. Fawn R. LeMay flemay@esu3.esu3.k12.ne.us Science Teacher Plattsmouth High School Plattsmouth, NE 68048 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:19:07 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Gordon Miller Subject: Re: Mercury Question In-Reply-To: <000a01beffca$3ede8640$b7fdcacd@calemay> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The cork was probably sufficient to prevent excessive vapor levels. In addition, metallic mercury forms an oxide film (at least I think its oxide) on standing and this inhibits evaporation. You can go into a dental operatory and find no mercury just above the carpet. If the carpet is fluffed, mercury concentrations skyrocket because the film is broken allowing vapor to get out and the mercury is spread around which increases evaporating area. Check for drops of mercury in the area where the container was kept. I had this happen in a lab space I was responsible for. I looked in a storage cabinet one day and saw what looked like large beads of solder. It was mercury that had spilled out many years earlier before I started working there. I calibrated air sampling pumps on the bench just above that cabinet for years so I was at risk. Mercury vapor was not detectable in the lab and levels were fairly low even in the cabinet because of the film. But it was a real issue if stuff had ever been stored in that particular part of that particular cabinet so I had it cleaned out. Any Industrial Hygiene consulting outfit should be able to do the air testing using a gold film or uv absorption direct reading meter. It will be fast so it should be relatively cheap. Cleaning up spilled mercury is difficult and may require special vacuum cleaners with mercury filters in the exhaust stream and cyclone separators preceding the vacuum cleaner body to catch the really big drops. That will be costly if you have to have it done. Gordon Miller, CIH miller22@llnl.gov ---------------------------- >OK NACHOs I need some advice. I discovered an old bottle of mercury in our >high school chemical storage area that only had a cork in it. It was quite >apparent to me that some of the mercury was vaporizing into the air because >I could see that the mercury had worked its way into the cork. I put the >bottle into another jar, sealed it, and currently have it stored out of the >building until I can find someone to take it off our hands. I've requested >that our principal have the air tested, not just for the mercury but just >for quality in general (our air handling system hasn't been working >properly, and temp and humidity levels have been quite high ... I know the >humidity has affected several chemicals, I don't know what may have >evaporated into the air.) My questions ... am I being overly cautious in >requesting that the air be tested? Could a toxic level of mercury vapor have >actually escaped through that cork? My school district is small. We do not >have an OSHA rep, and I am not trained in this at all. Any suggestions, >opinions, or thoughts from those more experienced would be greatly >appreciated. > >Fawn R. LeMay >flemay@esu3.esu3.k12.ne.us >Science Teacher >Plattsmouth High School >Plattsmouth, NE 68048 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:17:33 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mike Pirrello Subject: Re: Mercury Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Just a little something on mercury that the friendly folks at Bethlehem Apparatus taught me when I toured their very cool facility: The stuff you see on top of mercury is not an oxide (remember, mercury oxide is bright orange). In fact, the grey film is just contaminants in the mercury that have finally floated to the top. In the case of spilled mercury, droplets and pools can also accumulate a significant layer of dust that I'm guessing helps to suppress vapors until the puddle or droplet is disturbed. I think the fluffing of the carpet that generates vapors is also at least in part a matter of breaking larger droplets down into smaller ones, therefore increasing the surface area from which evaporation can take place. Michael G. Pirrello, CHMM Facilities, Safety & Environmental Mgr. Trimeris, Inc. mpirrello@trimeris.com -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Miller [mailto:miller22@LLNL.GOV] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 11:19 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Mercury Question The cork was probably sufficient to prevent excessive vapor levels. In addition, metallic mercury forms an oxide film (at least I think its oxide) on standing and this inhibits evaporation. You can go into a dental operatory and find no mercury just above the carpet. If the carpet is fluffed, mercury concentrations skyrocket because the film is broken allowing vapor to get out and the mercury is spread around which increases evaporating area. Check for drops of mercury in the area where the container was kept. I had this happen in a lab space I was responsible for. I looked in a storage cabinet one day and saw what looked like large beads of solder. It was mercury that had spilled out many years earlier before I started working there. I calibrated air sampling pumps on the bench just above that cabinet for years so I was at risk. Mercury vapor was not detectable in the lab and levels were fairly low even in the cabinet because of the film. But it was a real issue if stuff had ever been stored in that particular part of that particular cabinet so I had it cleaned out. Any Industrial Hygiene consulting outfit should be able to do the air testing using a gold film or uv absorption direct reading meter. It will be fast so it should be relatively cheap. Cleaning up spilled mercury is difficult and may require special vacuum cleaners with mercury filters in the exhaust stream and cyclone separators preceding the vacuum cleaner body to catch the really big drops. That will be costly if you have to have it done. Gordon Miller, CIH miller22@llnl.gov ---------------------------- >OK NACHOs I need some advice. I discovered an old bottle of mercury in our >high school chemical storage area that only had a cork in it. It was quite >apparent to me that some of the mercury was vaporizing into the air because >I could see that the mercury had worked its way into the cork. I put the >bottle into another jar, sealed it, and currently have it stored out of the >building until I can find someone to take it off our hands. I've requested >that our principal have the air tested, not just for the mercury but just >for quality in general (our air handling system hasn't been working >properly, and temp and humidity levels have been quite high ... I know the >humidity has affected several chemicals, I don't know what may have >evaporated into the air.) My questions ... am I being overly cautious in >requesting that the air be tested? Could a toxic level of mercury vapor have >actually escaped through that cork? My school district is small. We do not >have an OSHA rep, and I am not trained in this at all. Any suggestions, >opinions, or thoughts from those more experienced would be greatly >appreciated. > >Fawn R. LeMay >flemay@esu3.esu3.k12.ne.us >Science Teacher >Plattsmouth High School >Plattsmouth, NE 68048 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:32:19 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Joe Chase Subject: Flammable Storage Cabinet in Walk-in Cooler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Does anyone know if a 45 gallon capacity Flammable Storage Cabinet can be placed within a 12' x 24' walk-in cooler without any particular restrictions? I have a sprinkler system in the walk-in cooler. There is no air exchange in the cooler other than the regular door openings during the day. Anyone know if there would be a NFPA requirement? Also, concerning walk-in coolers --- Are there any particular precautions concerning the placement of liquid nitrogen cryobiological storage systems in walk-in coolers? Again there is only passive air exchange. Should I have oxygen or nitrogen monitors in the cooler that would read the levels and alarm if the atmosphere is oxygen depleted. Does anyone know if there are monitors available for this application? --Joe Chase ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:38:25 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Joe Chase Subject: NFPA regs for transport on elevators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I don't have a copy of NFPA regs, so I would appreciate some information. Are there NFPA regs that specifically apply to the transport of hazardous substances on elevators? And do the regs distinguish between passenger and freight elevators? Thanks. --Joe Chase (Document link not converted) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Schultz William F Subject: Re: Flammable Storage Cabinet in Walk-in Cooler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Using a walk-in cooler for storing flammables is no different than storing them in a refrigerator. If the walk in cooler is not explosion proof I wouldn't do it. If the walk-in cooler is explosion proof you have to deal with any gas vapors released by the flammables (both oxygen displacement inside the cooler and explosion potential from the surrounding area when opening the door) I think placing a liquid nitrogen cryobiological storage system into a walk in cooler is asking for trouble. Unless the walk-in cooler is as cold as the liquid nitrogen some has to off gas and lower the oxygen concentration. If the walk-in cooler is used to store flammables I would install a system capable of sensing both upper and lower explosion limits for hydrocarbons and an oxygen sensor. If the walk-in cooler is used for a liquid nitrogen storage system I would install an oxygen sensing system. Bill Schultz USAMRIID ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:49:26 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: Flammable Storage Cabinet in Walk-in Cooler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It doesn't sound like a good idea to use this walk in cooler for either of these purposes. Ventilation is going to be the main issue. Secondly, what about humidity levels in the cooler and how might that effect labels, cans of solvent/flammables, or purity of hygroscopic chemicals? My humble opinion, Janeen. :):):):):):):):):):):):) Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:55:46 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Swiki Anderson Subject: Re: Flammable Storage Cabinet in Walk-in Cooler Please give some thought to venting. In refinery retain cold storage rooms where flammable material are stored, there are NFPA code requirements that required a continuous venting of the sample room, with or without fume hoods. And yes, it does have to be explosion proof. Imagine the surprise that could take place when some unsuspecting user flipped a switch in a room where a leaking sample bomb had been stored. Perception is not reality when it comes to laboratory ventilation. Swiki A. Anderson, Ph.D., P.E. Office: Swiki Anderson and Associates, Inc. 1516 Shiloh Ave., Bryan, TX 77803 v. 409.779-6068, x11; f -6085; 800.949-1996 website: http://saai-svc.com -----Original Message----- From: Schultz William F [SMTP:William.Schultz@DET.AMEDD.ARMY.MIL] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 10:07 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Flammable Storage Cabinet in Walk-in Cooler Using a walk-in cooler for storing flammables is no different than storing them in a refrigerator. If the walk in cooler is not explosion proof I wouldn't do it. If the walk-in cooler is explosion proof you have to deal with any gas vapors released by the flammables (both oxygen displacement inside the cooler and explosion potential from the surrounding area when opening the door) I think placing a liquid nitrogen cryobiological storage system into a walk in cooler is asking for trouble. Unless the walk-in cooler is as cold as the liquid nitrogen some has to off gas and lower the oxygen concentration. If the walk-in cooler is used to store flammables I would install a system capable of sensing both upper and lower explosion limits for hydrocarbons and an oxygen sensor. If the walk-in cooler is used for a liquid nitrogen storage system I would install an oxygen sensing system. Bill Schultz USAMRIID ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:40:52 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "John M. Neil" Subject: Re: Flammable Storage Cabinet in Walk-in Cooler In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would look at the confined space reg's very closely on this. Even if you can avoid classifying it as a confined space on a technicalities; the requirements for confined space would give you some good guide lines as to how to prevent injury and/or death from an enclosed space where you could have air/oxygen displacement. John M. Neil Thermochemistry Facility Department of Chemical Engineering & Material Science University of California at Davis One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616-8779 phone: (530) 754-2130 Fax: (530) 752-9307 "Entropy isn't what it use to be." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:54:44 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Cagle, Donald W" Subject: Re: Flammable Storage Cabinet in Walk-in Cooler I think the biggest problem is the lack of ventilation in the walk-in cooler. It is designed to be entered so that takes it out of the realm of confined spaces. Also, locating a flammable storage cabinet inside a room with adequate ventilation does not require explosion proof electrical wiring - again because the ventilation that is present in laboratories will maintain levels well below those of concern for an explosive hazard. This is regardless of the temperature. Therefore, I think you have gotten good advice, i.e., "don't put the cabinet inside the cooler" but it is because of the lack of ventilation/air exchange in the unit. My 2 Cents... Donald W Cagle, CIH Battelle 505 King Ave Columbus, OH 43201 cagled@battelle.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Chase [SMTP:jchase@TWT.COM] > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 12:32 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Flammable Storage Cabinet in Walk-in Cooler > > Does anyone know if a 45 gallon capacity Flammable Storage Cabinet can be > placed > within a 12' x 24' walk-in cooler without any particular restrictions? I > have > a sprinkler system in the walk-in cooler. There is no air exchange in > the > cooler other than the regular door openings during the day. Anyone know > if > there would be a NFPA requirement? > > Also, concerning walk-in coolers --- Are there any particular precautions > concerning the placement of liquid nitrogen cryobiological storage systems > in > walk-in coolers? Again there is only passive air exchange. Should I have > oxygen > or nitrogen monitors in the cooler that would read the levels and alarm if > the > atmosphere is oxygen depleted. Does anyone know if there are monitors > available > for this application? > > --Joe Chase ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 06:44:23 +0530 Reply-To: "karthik (List Mailing)" Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "karthik (List Mailing)" Organization: 24,Garden Manor, Mangalore Subject: Introduction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01BF00D8.13D7A9E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BF00D8.13D7A9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Introduction to Lab safety list members Hellow all My Name is Karthik.B. I am working as Manager-Safety and Environment = (SHE)at BASF India Limited, Mangalore India. I am basically an = Environmental Engineer with Diploma In Industrial Safety with 15 years = of experience in SHE feild in the chemical Industries.(Pesticides, = Pharma and fine chemicals) This is my Inroduction. Thanks in advance. Karthik. B. Karthik and Lalitha Karthik 24, Garden Manor, Urwa Market, Mangalore 575 006 India Phone ++91 824 454370 Jai Hind, Jai Jawan ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BF00D8.13D7A9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Introduction to Lab = safety list=20 members
Hellow all
 
My Name is Karthik.B. I = am working as=20 Manager-Safety and Environment (SHE)at BASF India Limited, Mangalore = India. I am=20 basically an Environmental Engineer with Diploma In Industrial Safety = with 15=20 years of experience in SHE feild in the chemical Industries.(Pesticides, = Pharma=20 and fine chemicals)
 
This is my = Inroduction.
 
Thanks in = advance.
 
Karthik.
 
 
 
 
 
 
B. Karthik and Lalitha = Karthik
24,=20 Garden Manor, Urwa Market, Mangalore 575 006 India
Phone ++91 824=20 454370
 
Jai Hind, Jai=20 Jawan
------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BF00D8.13D7A9E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 07:35:30 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: Flammable Storage Cabinet in Walk-in Cooler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" When I was in high school, I worked at NIH as an intern. We had a small liquid nitrogen freezer in our walk in freezer which was only accessable via a walk in cold room. Many other labs in our building had small liquid nitrogen freezers in their cold rooms. It was not an uncommon practice back then. I'm not so sure it was a good idea then or now. Tammy Tayman > -----Original Message----- > From: John M. Neil [mailto:jmneil@UCDAVIS.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 4:41 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: Flammable Storage Cabinet in Walk-in Cooler > > > I would look at the confined space reg's very closely > on this. Even if > you can avoid classifying it as a confined space on a > technicalities; the > requirements for confined space would give you some good > guide lines as to > how to prevent injury and/or death from an enclosed space > where you could > have air/oxygen displacement. > > > > > John M. Neil > > Thermochemistry Facility > Department of Chemical Engineering & Material Science > University of California at Davis > One Shields Avenue > Davis, CA 95616-8779 > > phone: (530) 754-2130 Fax: (530) 752-9307 > > "Entropy isn't what it use to be." > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 07:50:33 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Anne Pfannkoch Subject: Deaf chemistry Student Comments: To: Chemistry list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This year I have a deaf student in my high school chemistry class. She has an interpreter who accompanies her to all her classes and signs for her. Has anyone ever had a student (or any person, really) who was deaf in the chemistry lab? Are there any particular safety precautions that I should be aware of? -- Anne Pfannkoch mailto:akp@inr.net http://shell.inr.net/~akp/ ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:11:18 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: Deaf chemistry Student MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" We currently have a deaf student in one of our freshman chemistry lab classes. The student is accompanied by an interpreter during the entire class. The interpreter is required to wear safety goggles, know all of the safety info and sign the same Statement of Understanding that the students sign. In addition, the students in the class were informed that the student was deaf to ensure that they would be more aware and careful. There is also a student (the one at the adjacent lab station) who is assigned to assist the deaf student in case of an emergency. I was also informed of the student's status, since the Prep Room is a point of contact in case of an emergency. We treat the deaf student the same as any other, even to the point of making her finger-spell the words we make the other students learn how to pronounce! My $0.02, Tammy Tayman > -----Original Message----- > From: Anne Pfannkoch [mailto:akp@INR.NET] > Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 7:51 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Deaf chemistry Student > > > This year I have a deaf student in my high school chemistry class. She > has an interpreter who accompanies her to all her classes and > signs for > her. > > Has anyone ever had a student (or any person, really) who was deaf in > the chemistry lab? Are there any particular safety precautions that I > should be aware of? > -- > Anne Pfannkoch mailto:akp@inr.net http://shell.inr.net/~akp/ > ************************************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:36:51 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jeff Your Organization: John Carroll University Subject: Re: (no subject) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello, Joe, et.alii The closest thing I can find in all the NFPA codes is NFPA 55: Standard for the Storage, Use and Handling of Compressed and Liquefied Gases in Portable Cylinders, 1998 Edition. which costs $19.50 from the NFPA. Access the NFPA site at: http://catalog.nfpa.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/STORE/PAGES/55-98.htm?L+nfpanonmembers+zbvn0234+937584257 A search of the NFPA catalog contents for the word "elevator" indicated no references to transport of hazardous substances. There do not seem to be any interpretations of OSHA regulations concerning transport in elevators, either. > Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:38:25 -0600 > From: Joe Chase > Subject: NFPA regs for transport on elevators > > I don't have a copy of NFPA regs, so I would appreciate some > information. Are there NFPA regs that specifically apply to the > transport of > hazardous substances on elevators? And do the regs distinguish between > passenger and freight elevators? Thanks. > > --Joe Chase > -- Jeff Your, C.S.M.M. jyour@jcu.edu Department and Materials Mgr., Chemistry 216.397.4244 vox John Carroll University 216.397.3033 fax 20700 North Park Blvd. University Hts, Ohio 44118 http://www1.jcu.edu/chemistr/naosmm/stockrm/stockrm.htm ****************************************************************** Member of the National Association of Scientific Materials Managers http://www.denison.edu/naosmm/ Celebrating 26 Years of Excellence in Service - Ask Me About Membership! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:03:57 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: Deaf chemistry Student Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would second Tammy's comments and use this situation as a great teaching tool. I always talk about the "Buddy" system in lab safety classes. By having a higher degree of awareness for what you are doing and what your neighbor is doing in lab will make the whole class safer. Maybe you could pair everyone up with a "Safety Buddy" so as not to make the deaf student feel like they are being treated differently or "special". For what its worth, Janeen. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:16:50 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Chang, Jim C" Subject: Re: Flammable Storage Cabinet in Walk-in Cooler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Neither of your scenarios is very good. An FSC's sole purpose is to provide protection for the internal contents in the event of a fire. It does not prevent vapor migration from the cabinet. In either scenario, release of flammable vapors or GN2 can result in hazardous atmospheres for the unwary. We have explored modifying a cold room to meet NFPA and state code requirements for flammable liquids; this can be done at a cost - essentially if the walls are already rated, you provide rated electrical service, ventilation (>1 cfm/ft2) and upsize the condensor and AHU to accomdate the increased load. Most of our people opt for purchasing flam liq storage refrigerators instead. Jim C. -----Original Message----- From: Joe Chase [SMTP:jchase@TWT.COM] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 12:32 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Flammable Storage Cabinet in Walk-in Cooler Does anyone know if a 45 gallon capacity Flammable Storage Cabinet can be placed within a 12' x 24' walk-in cooler without any particular restrictions? I have a sprinkler system in the walk-in cooler. There is no air exchange in the cooler other than the regular door openings during the day. Anyone know if there would be a NFPA requirement? Also, concerning walk-in coolers --- Are there any particular precautions concerning the placement of liquid nitrogen cryobiological storage systems in walk-in coolers? Again there is only passive air exchange. Should I have oxygen or nitrogen monitors in the cooler that would read the levels and alarm if the atmosphere is oxygen depleted. Does anyone know if there are monitors available for this application? --Joe Chase ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:03:50 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Elise Windus Subject: Re: Deaf chemistry Student MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have had two in the high school lab, both had interpreters. One could read lips and the other was from a Spanish speaking country and could not read English lips. I would suggest making sure that they have a very good lab partner. I would also suggest that you have them work at a station which you seem to be near the most. It was about ten years ago but one of my deaf students almost did something that was potentially harmful. The good lab partner was very helpful since I was on the other side of the room. Enjoy your students. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 08:53:29 -0300 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Aziz M. Abu-khalaf" Subject: Safety officer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hellow friends: Is the safety officer a mandated position by OSHA or not? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:09:01 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: Safety officer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mandated by OSHA lab standard. :):):):):):):):):):):):) Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. >>> "Aziz M. Abu-khalaf" - 9/19/99 7:53 AM >>> Hellow friends: Is the safety officer a mandated position by OSHA or not? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:19 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Naomi Kelly Subject: Re: Safety officer In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A Chemical Hygiene Officer is mandated. At 10:09 AM 9/21/99 -0400, Janeen LaPierre wrote: >Mandated by OSHA lab standard. > >:):):):):):):):):):):):) >Janeen Lapierre, CHO >College of Osteopathic Medicine >University of New England >11 Hills Beach Road >Biddeford, ME 04005 > >E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU >Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 >Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. > >>>> "Aziz M. Abu-khalaf" - 9/19/99 7:53 AM >>> >Hellow friends: >Is the safety officer a mandated position by OSHA or not? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:47:56 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Madelyn Miller Subject: Re: Safety officer In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990919083923.1a072768@sun1.ksu.edu.sa> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Greetings, The Chemical Hygiene Officer (CHO) is mandated by 19 CFR 1910.1450. However it is an appointment it does not stipulate that a position is created. Madelyn On Sun, 19 Sep 1999 08:53:29 -0300 "Aziz M. Abu-khalaf" wrote: > Hellow friends: > Is the safety officer a mandated position by OSHA or not? ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Director & Chemical Hygiene Officer Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:59:29 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Harry Elston Subject: Re: Safety Officer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:53 AM 9/19/99 -0300, you wrote: >Hellow friends: >Is the safety officer a mandated position by OSHA or not? > Aziz, A "Safety Officer" per se is not a requrement by any OSHA general industry standard. However a Chemical Hygiene Officer, (CHO) is required by the Laboratory Standard, 29 CFR 1910.1450. This can be an appointed position, not necessarily a "new hire." There are a few mandated positions in individual standards, such as the confined space standard which requires people for confined space entry, and some commercial diving standards as well. However, a "safety officer," such as a Certified Industrial Hygienist is not a requirement. OSHA requires employers to provide a safe working environment by the General Duty Clause, how they do that is up to the employer. Hope that helps. Harry Harry J. Elston, Ph.D. Editor, Chemical Health and Safety and Chemical Hygiene Officer Illinois Department of Nuclear Safety Opinions are my own, not my employer's, blah, blah, blah "As a matter of fact, I do know 10 things that are carved in stone." -God ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:58:01 -0400 Reply-To: "edmiston@bluffton.edu" Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Michael Edmiston Organization: Bluffton College Subject: Re: Safety officer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right, and I assume you imply (by mentioning the position does not have to be created) that there does not have to be a salary and there does not have to be a budget. Initially my college appointed me as CHO in order to satisfy the law with neither salary, budget, nor release time from teaching duties. It was a long fight to get some meager supplemental salary. Although it might be problematic for OSHA to dictate salaries, budget, etc., it would be nice if they could add some sort of "teeth" to the CHO appointment that would require the institution to treat it seriously. Another way to say this... If I am appointed CHO with no salary and no budget and no release time, would OSHA actually consider that my institution has a CHO? If the institution can put on a piece of paper "John Doe is hereby officially appointed as CHO," and that's all they need to do in order to comply with this aspect of the law, then that is exactly what they will do. I think OSHA needs to beef this up somehow. Michael D. Edmiston, Ph.D. Phone/voice-mail: 419-358-3270 Professor of Chemistry & Physics FAX: 419-358-3323 Chairman, Science Department E-Mail edmiston@bluffton.edu Bluffton College 280 West College Avenue Bluffton, OH 45817 -----Original Message----- From: Madelyn Miller [SMTP:mmiller@ANDREW.CMU.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 1999 10:48 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Safety officer Greetings, The Chemical Hygiene Officer (CHO) is mandated by 19 CFR 1910.1450. However it is an appointment it does not stipulate that a position is created. Madelyn On Sun, 19 Sep 1999 08:53:29 -0300 "Aziz M. Abu-khalaf" wrote: > Hellow friends: > Is the safety officer a mandated position by OSHA or not? ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Director & Chemical Hygiene Officer Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:58:45 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Joe Chase Subject: Air Dusters- What happen to the air? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have been ordering air dusters from a number of sources over the last two weeks; I thought I was ordering 'air in a can' until I noticed the flammable labels. One can is labeled: 100% Tetrafluoroethane, another is labeled: Contains difluororethane. I am using the dusters for cleaning inside instrumentation. Any suggests on safe products that are available. --Joe Chase ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:43:57 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Amy Gregory Subject: Fire extinguisher accessibility Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Is there a required 36" clearance for accessibility to a mounted fire extinguisher? If there is, could someone site the reference? Thank you, Amy R. Gregory Lab Manager/NRCC--CHO Univ. of Cin./Clermont College ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:52:10 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Incident Review Committees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI NACHO's In the discussion of the Bakerfield incident, Dan Koch wrote ..... << I personally feel it important for you to follow the initial acident report with the full story, an analysis of what was done wrong, and suggestions for making the situation safer. >> Several of you agreed. I'm wondering if one of you would be willing to chair NACHO ad hoc committee to do this for this incident. Are there others who would like to volunteer to be on the committee. Would you like to see NACHO members volunteer to do this each time there is an incident which appears to warrent this level of attention? ... Jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, Director The Laboratory Safety Workshop Safety in Science Education 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 Cell: 508-574-6264 Email: labsafe@aol.com Web Site: http://www.labsafety.org/ ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:36:36 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: Air Dusters- What happen to the air? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; Boundary="0__=qMyNpJaqdelylaolBDQD9qorxxLclIjHw2UItJ5zs0HKt1SywxleBesY"; X-Lotus-Encap=encap3 --0__=qMyNpJaqdelylaolBDQD9qorxxLclIjHw2UItJ5zs0HKt1SywxleBesY Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline >I have been ordering air dusters from a number of sources over the last two >weeks; I thought I was ordering 'air in a can' until I noticed the flammable >labels. One can is labeled: 100% Tetrafluoroethane, another is labeled: >Contains difluororethane. > I am using the dusters for cleaning inside instrumentation. Any suggests on >safe products that are available. Tetrafluoroethane is nonflammable. It is listed as being flammable because of some of the possible by-products which might be present. The by-products are probably <2% of the total composition. "Air in a can" sold for cleaning instruments is always some type of fluorocarbon (doesn't deplete the ozone layer). If you want more information about fluorocarbons, I can give you the name of a fluorine chemist I know. Julie O'Brien Archimica (Florida) and EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville afn35210@afn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 06:26:11 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Chem Labels in Labs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi NACHOs, There's been some discussion of chem labels in labs on the SAFETY list. I thought you might like to see some of the conversation.... Jim Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:55:07 -0600 From: Terrie Wierenga Subject: Re: chem labels in labs Melissa asks: > In labs, what are the requirements for chemical labeling as far as the FULL > name goes? Health hazards are defined, but would flammables, combustibles > and reactive chemicals fall under the same labeling requirements? What do > other folks do as far as labeling requirements in labs go for both hazardous > and non- hazardous materials. > We've adopted a hybrid approach to chemical labeling in our labs. Containers are allowed to be labeled as TEMED, TRIS, EtOH, etc. only if the following conditions are met: 1. The hazards that appeared on the original container are also on the lab label. 2. A sheet containing the abbreviation (EtOH, MeCl2, etc.) with the full chemical name is posted in a prominent location. For solutions, the investigator must list the ingredients, their concentrations, and any hazards. 3. The investigator must review these abbreviations with the workers in the lab; we also tell folks where to find this information during their initial safety training. This approach works well for us and has satisfied the regulators who have come through (at least so far!). Terrie **** Terrie Wierenga, CDSO, LRPO USDA-ARS Poisonous Plant Research Lab 1150 East 1400 North Logan, UT 84341 v: 435-752-2941 f: 435-753-5681 e: terrie@cc.usu.edu http://www.pprl.usu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:07:29 -0700 From: Barry Rutledge Subject: Re: chem labels in labs >In labs, what are the requirements for chemical labeling as far as the FULL >name goes? Health hazards are defined, but would flammables, combustibles >and reactive chemicals fall under the same labeling requirements? What do >other folks do as far as labeling requirements in labs go for both hazardous >and non- hazardous materials. >I could quote the standard and even quote our chemicals hygiene plan, which >states "All containers must be labeled as to content and principal hazards" >but what I am really looking for is regulatory guidance and/or real life >solutions (i.e., what do YOU do?). I was told by a rather prominent >researcher that the idea of labeling everything with its full chemical name >was egregious and that no lab that he had ever been in required or even >asked for such a thing. Personally, I do not think that it is outrageous to >ask a researcher to label a bottle with the full chemical name as a >protection to those non-lab folks that may enter the lab. Most foks know >that EtOH is ethanol, but our plumbers, computer techs, etc. do not and I >think that is why all bottles should be labeled. >Any help would be appreciated (on or off line) >Melissa K. McCullough >Environmental Health and Safety >Dana Farber Cancer Institute > > Melissa, We require "all" hazardous chemical containers to be "properly" labeled. We require the "full" name and hazards including target organs. Anything less would be in California, a code infraction. Non-hazardous items are not required to be labeled. Kenneth "Barry" Rutledge Senior Safety Specialist The Scripps Research Inst. La Jolla, CA -------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:56:24 -0400 From: "Warren C. Pinches" Subject: Re: chem labels in labs There is a not a perfect answer to this question, nor will the same answer be applicable everywhere. Unless you have management backing to go to war over this issue, trying to enforce a rule that is regarded as unreasonably strict may only result in more widespread non-compliance and decreased safety. If in your workplace certain abbreviations are known to everyone working with the chemical, then the abbreviation conveys as much information as the full name, while persons unfamiliar with the chemical or its properties may not gain any more information from the full name than the abbreviation. That is why the nature of the hazard as well as a name must be on the label. If abbreviations are used, at a minimum I would make sure they are cross-referenced in the MSDS file so that persons unfamiliar with the chemical can get more information. The same problem crops up with synonyms; I have seen labs have a religious war over whether a chemical is methylene chloride or dichloromethane. Where the abbreviation saves only a few letters, such as EtOH; you should stick to your guns -- ethanol is a meaningful name to most people (!). TEMED, however, seems like a worthwhile abbreviation. To be sure, sometimes chemical names provide clues that help non-chemists guess their properties, but more often than not the clues are misleading. Most of the "acids" in our chemical stockroom are salts. Sometimes the slightest change in a long chemical name produces a molecule with entirely different properties. One person in my plant who worked with "trichloroethane" started reading one day about 1,1,2-trichloroethane, and was rather horrified. It took a great deal of explaining on my part to make him understand that he worked with 1,1,1-trichloroethane, which has very different toxicological properties. I agree that more information is better than less, if you can actually get it put on all the labels, but full chemical names will not be a panacea for persons who would not know sodium chloride from sodium hydride. I do try to dissuade chemists from using chemical formulae on labels. Remember the old lab "nursery rhyme"? "We had a guy named Willie -- now Willie is no more -- for what he thought was H2O -- was H2SO4". I suggest that you negotiate a list of acceptable abbreviations, make sure emergency response information is cross-referenced to them, and put your emphasis on getting hazard class information on all labels. From a safety standpoint, a label that says "#$%&%$, Flammable" is more meaningful to most non-chemists than "Tetrahydrofuran". Warren C. Pinches, CSP, CHMM ---------------------------------------------------- This is the original message in full .... Jim Subject: Re: chem labels in labs Hello! I checked the archives, but am still looking for some wise advice: In new lab walk throughs, I have attempted to require that ALL chemical labels have the FULL chemical name on them. It seems that I may have been hasty. I know that hazardous waste labels must have the full chemical name, RCRA spells that out quite well. The labs have been pretty good about compliance with that one. However, for the hundreds of bottles of solutions that the labs make up (6M Tris, TEMED, M.T.T. etc), I rarely find one that does have the full name. I know that the hazard communication system(hcs) labeling requirements apply to labs. HCS says that all hazardous materials must be labeled, but the definition of "hazardous" in HCS only defines health hazards in the appendix. It also doesn't state (and neither does Prudent Practices) what "labeled" means. To me it is the full chemical name to others it is NaCl, TEMED, etc. SO, my question is... In labs, what are the requirements for chemical labeling as far as the FULL name goes? Health hazards are defined, but would flammables, combustibles and reactive chemicals fall under the same labeling requirements? What do other folks do as far as labeling requirements in labs go for both hazardous and non- hazardous materials. I could quote the standard and even quote our chemicals hygiene plan, which states "All containers must be labeled as to content and principal hazards" but what I am really looking for is regulatory guidance and/or real life solutions (i.e., what do YOU do?). I was told by a rather prominent researcher that the idea of labeling everything with its full chemical name was egregious and that no lab that he had ever been in required or even asked for such a thing. Personally, I do not think that it is outrageous to ask a researcher to label a bottle with the full chemical name as a protection to those non-lab folks that may enter the lab. Most foks know that EtOH is ethanol, but our plumbers, computer techs, etc. do not and I think that is why all bottles should be labeled. Any help would be appreciated (on or off line) Melissa K. McCullough Environmental Health and Safety Dana Farber Cancer Institute --------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:18:33 -0700 From: LUKENS Carl B Subject: Re: chem labels in labs Melissa The haz comm labeling requirements DO NOT apply to labs. This is one reason labs have their own standard. If you read the lab std carefully, section (h)(1) only requires labs to not remove or deface labels on containers as they arrive from mfrs or distributors. Nowhere does the lab std have specific requirements for labels. Remember that the lab std is a performance standard, that it must as it notes in the text for the chem hyg plan, be "capable of protecting employees from health hazards associated with hazardous chemicals in the laboratory". The labeling systems i saw it UCB and UCSF tended to suit the research needs of each lab. I don't recall anyone trying to make them write out full chemical names, especially for such things as small vials used in HPLCs , microcentrifuges, scintillation counters, etc. Obviously labels with specific chem identities would help, esp if you were cleaning out an old lab and needed to know what waste stream it would end up in, or if a haz cat had to be performed on it. But if the existing Chem Hyg Plan and the associated SOPS and training ensures that the lab employee knows the hazards of the solutions they work with, even without the haz comm labels, then they are meeting the intent of the standard. In order to address the needs of say haz mat folks coming into a lab, UCB EH&S toyed with the idea of labeling shelves on which a number of solutions were stored (such as the buffers/salt solutions you note). While complying with the Hazardous Material Management Plans and Risk Management Plans the focus was on how to inform haz mat folks about what was inside of a lab, where it was, and how much and what existing safety systems were present The local fire dept was given maps of each floor, which located such things as power shut offs, flam storage cabinets, acid storage cabinets, eyewashes, standpipes, fume hoods, storage rooms, sprinklers, etc. and also room summaries that totaled gallons of flam, acids, bases, pounds of toxics, cubic feet of toxic gases, cubic feet or inert gases, and so on. In most cases the summaries were posted on the door to the lab,along with biohazard and radiation safety info, emergency contacts, responsible people etc. It seemed to work for them and Berkeley Fire Dept. Carl Lukens CIH/MSPH Oregon OSHA ---------------------------------- There was lots more. But, this is enough.... Jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, Director The Laboratory Safety Workshop Safety in Science Education 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 Cell: 508-574-6264 Email: labsafe@aol.com Web Site: http://www.labsafety.org/ ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:01:34 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Brian Wazlaw Subject: Re: Chem Labels in Labs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim, What would you suggest for a public high school. In our bio and chem storerooms, should we label all chemicals with formulae and chemical names? Would appreciate any advise. Brian Wazlaw Exeter High School ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 09:39:18 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Barry Rutledge Subject: Re: Chem Labels in Labs In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:01 PM 9/22/99 EDT, you wrote: >Hello Jim, > > What would you suggest for a public high school. In our bio and chem >storerooms, should we label all chemicals with formulae and chemical names? >Would appreciate any advise. > >Brian Wazlaw >Exeter High School > > Brian, I am not Jim but I have an opinion on this matter. Does it make sense from a safety point of view to label all chemicals with as much information as possible? Do you think that students begin to form their basic safety "style" while in high school? If someone either in high school or collage does not start teaching safety attitude, we are in for more safety illiterate workers in the work force. Currently the way it is, high schools and collages pass this responsibility to the employer. By then it is sadly all to often, too late. Safety is a way of life, which must be started as early as possible. There is no better or more important place to do things right than in high school. Teach our children well! Kenneth "Barry" Rutledge Senior Safety Specialist The Scripps Research Inst. La Jolla, CA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:44:09 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: George McKelvy Subject: Re: Chem Labels in Labs In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" May I also suggest adding any common names to the formulae and chemical names and include any hazard warnings. At 12:01 PM 9/22/99 -0400, you wrote: >Hello Jim, > > What would you suggest for a public high school. In our bio and chem >storerooms, should we label all chemicals with formulae and chemical names? >Would appreciate any advise. > >Brian Wazlaw >Exeter High School George M. McKelvy Demonstration Teacher; and Safety and Right-to-Know Coordinator School of Chemistry and Biochemistry Fon: 404-894-0433 Georgia Institute of Technology Fax: 404-894-2038 Atlanta, GA 30332-0400 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:42:23 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jim Jenkins Subject: Re: Chem Labels in Labs Comments: To: BriWazlaw@AOL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In our high scholl, I label all solutions with name and formula as well as any specific hazard warnings. We use the soluton labels sold by Flinn. They are pretty good for our purposes. Jim Jenkins Chairman, Science Department John F. Hodge High School St. James, MO 65559 jjenkins@stjames.k12.mo.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:00:47 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Air handlers and smoking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have an interesting question for the list: Are there any regulations/recommendations/requirements out there regarding the placement of air intake vents for building air handlers? The air handle for our building was recently replaced and they put in the air intake on the side of the building about four feet above the ground, right next to where the smokers congregate! Now, every time someone decides to have a cigarette, our labs and my office (amongst other places) get filled with cigarette smoke. I seem to recall something about requirements for where the grills can be placed, but I can't remember where. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks, Tammy Tayman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:05:27 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Ian Fraser Subject: Re: Air handlers and smoking In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed We had a similar problem. The solution was to designate that entrance non smoking. Worked well. At 03:00 PM 9/22/99 , you wrote: >I have an interesting question for the list: > >Are there any regulations/recommendations/requirements out there regarding >the placement of air intake vents for building air handlers? The air handle >for our building was recently replaced and they put in the air intake on the >side of the building about four feet above the ground, right next to where >the smokers congregate! Now, every time someone decides to have a >cigarette, our labs and my office (amongst other places) get filled with >cigarette smoke. I seem to recall something about requirements for where >the grills can be placed, but I can't remember where. Any help would be >appreciated! > >Thanks, > >Tammy Tayman Thanks in advance Ian Fraser Safety Office University of Waterloo 200 University Ave. W. Waterloo, ON Canada, N2L 3G1 mailto:igfraser@uwaterloo.ca http://www.safetyoffice.uwaterloo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:45:18 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: Air handlers and smoking Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I believe ther are no regulations on this, but ASHRAE (American Society of Heating, Refrigeratoin, and Air Conditioning Engineers) has something to say on this in their air quality standards/guidelines. I can't give you an exact citation at the moment, but could track it down. EPA's "Building Air Quality - A Guide for Building Owners and Facility Managers," DHHS Publication No. 91-114, addresses placement of intakes relative to pollutant sources, as does just about any general publication on IAQ. They address the principle, if not the specific instance of smokers at the intakes. I'd guess that it would be easier to move the smokers than the intakes. If signs don't work, perhaps a randomly-activated lawn sprinkler or air raid siren will help move them along :-) Don >Are there any regulations/recommendations/requirements out there regarding >the placement of air intake vents for building air handlers? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 (610) 526-5166 | (610) 328-8564 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:55:15 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: Air handlers and smoking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Set up a smoking room indoors, with it's own air removal, and then forbid smoking outside on company (or university or whatever) property. WE had a fire in the mulch outside several years ago from smoking outside the door. And it looks just awful to outsiders to see all the gang hanging around. Much better to segregate them indoors out of sight! I tried to do this with no success!! Good luck! "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Tayman, Tammy [mailto:ttayman@MC.CC.MD.US] Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 15:01 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Air handlers and smoking I have an interesting question for the list: Are there any regulations/recommendations/requirements out there regarding the placement of air intake vents for building air handlers? The air handle for our building was recently replaced and they put in the air intake on the side of the building about four feet above the ground, right next to where the smokers congregate! Now, every time someone decides to have a cigarette, our labs and my office (amongst other places) get filled with cigarette smoke. I seem to recall something about requirements for where the grills can be placed, but I can't remember where. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks, Tammy Tayman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:34:21 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Amy Gregory Subject: Chemical labels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Since this topic has come up, I would like to add my two cents. I label my prepared reagents with the chemical formula, chemical name, concentration, date prepared, and hazard (toxic, corrosive... or NFPA diamond if info is available). If it is a special reagent such as seliwanoff's or benedict's, I will list the constituents too. However, I only list the name and hazard if it is a secondary container for a solvent or salt (i.e. EtOH or NaCl). Amy R. Gregory Lab Manager/NRCC--CHO Univ. of Cin./Clermont College ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:03:34 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Re: Air handlers and smoking Comments: To: RBURNS@RUETGERS-ORGANICS-CORP.COM In-Reply-To: <557A869D0907D31195D000508B085CD20FF131@ROCMAIL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob&Tammy, I agree in part with what you're saying. However,,if you're a healthcare facility with a no smoking policy, it's difficult to do. Seems to me the more logical solution is to just relocate the smokers to another area. I'm not a smoker, but I don't think I'd be offended if someone explained the problem to me and then asked me politely to move away from the air intake. Who inforces the NSP for your institution? Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:51:24 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Roberta Black Subject: Chem labels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For the sake of those who must follow you, please label containers with name, formula, concentration where applicable and hazard. When I started as the first chem tech ever at my community college 20+years ago, there were solutions made by instructors labeled only Pb2+, Cu2+, etc. Now every bottle is labeled with class, experiment#, (IUPAC) chemical name, conc.& formula, date, then hazard stickers are placed left of the label. This way even students in beginning chemistry see the name as they will have to learn it, and the hazard label is there if they grab the wrong bottle. Can anyone tell me what TOTP is? Is it hazwaste? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:49:52 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Sharon Reed Subject: Re: Chem labels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I can say that, during my tenure at a large prestigious university a zillion years ago, I was called in many times to clean out the lab of a professor who had either left the university or retired, and MANY times there were countless unlabeled bottles of brown goo. One large vat of unlabeled goo looked very much like dichromate cleaning solution, and indeed had glassware sitting in it, so my boss told me to neutralize it with Bicarb. I started to, when it blew up.... literally, like an underwater charge had detonated!!! Fortunately I was wearing a face shield and rubber apron, and escaped relatively unscathed. I then took a tiny amount, diluted it and took a pH reading (yes, I am still hitting myself in the forehead for not having done this FIRST.... I was a young innocent who believed the boss knew best) and found a pH near 14. We never did find out what it WAS (before the days of EPA and HazWaste) but I neutralized it and.... God and the American People forgive me.... poured it down the drain. So CLEARLY LABEL EVERYTHING!!!! You never know who may have to deal with it if you don't, or can't, dispose of it yourself. Sharon |--------+-----------------------> | | Roberta Black| | | | | | | | | 09/23/1999 | | | 12:51 PM | | | Please | | | respond to | | | LABSAFETY-L | | | Discussion | | | List | | | | |--------+-----------------------> >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU | | cc: (bcc: Sharon Reed/PEDNY/Pall/US) | | Subject: Chem labels | >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| For the sake of those who must follow you, please label containers with name, formula, concentration where applicable and hazard. When I started as the first chem tech ever at my community college 20+years ago, there were solutions made by instructors labeled only Pb2+, Cu2+, etc. Now every bottle is labeled with class, experiment#, (IUPAC) chemical name, conc.& formula, date, then hazard stickers are placed left of the label. This way even students in beginning chemistry see the name as they will have to learn it, and the hazard label is there if they grab the wrong bottle. Can anyone tell me what TOTP is? Is it hazwaste? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:26:49 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: Chem labels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" don't understand how bicarb could react at high pH. Are you sure it wasn't very low? Acid and bicarb react violently to generate CO2. "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Reed [mailto:Sharon_Reed@PALL.COM] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 13:50 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Chem labels I can say that, during my tenure at a large prestigious university a zillion years ago, I was called in many times to clean out the lab of a professor who had either left the university or retired, and MANY times there were countless unlabeled bottles of brown goo. One large vat of unlabeled goo looked very much like dichromate cleaning solution, and indeed had glassware sitting in it, so my boss told me to neutralize it with Bicarb. I started to, when it blew up.... literally, like an underwater charge had detonated!!! Fortunately I was wearing a face shield and rubber apron, and escaped relatively unscathed. I then took a tiny amount, diluted it and took a pH reading (yes, I am still hitting myself in the forehead for not having done this FIRST.... I was a young innocent who believed the boss knew best) and found a pH near 14. We never did find out what it WAS (before the days of EPA and HazWaste) but I neutralized it and.... God and the American People forgive me.... poured it down the drain. So CLEARLY LABEL EVERYTHING!!!! You never know who may have to deal with it if you don't, or can't, dispose of it yourself. Sharon |--------+-----------------------> | | Roberta Black| | | | | | | | | 09/23/1999 | | | 12:51 PM | | | Please | | | respond to | | | LABSAFETY-L | | | Discussion | | | List | | | | |--------+-----------------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -| | | | To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU | | cc: (bcc: Sharon Reed/PEDNY/Pall/US) | | Subject: Chem labels | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -| For the sake of those who must follow you, please label containers with name, formula, concentration where applicable and hazard. When I started as the first chem tech ever at my community college 20+years ago, there were solutions made by instructors labeled only Pb2+, Cu2+, etc. Now every bottle is labeled with class, experiment#, (IUPAC) chemical name, conc.& formula, date, then hazard stickers are placed left of the label. This way even students in beginning chemistry see the name as they will have to learn it, and the hazard label is there if they grab the wrong bottle. Can anyone tell me what TOTP is? Is it hazwaste? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:11:45 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Barbara Klein Organization: clarke college Subject: MSDS for paint MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a question for discussion. There is a concern in our drama department about the MSDS forms required for the paint that they use to paint their sets. They use all latex paints from the same supplier. Is one MSDS sheet for latex paint sufficient or are the formulations for the different colors different enough that they need one sheet for each color? Thanks for your help. Your ideas have been very helpful so far barb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:40:51 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: MSDS for paint MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Is this a consumer product? I've been told that we don't need MSDS's for consumer products. Anyone else know about this? Tammy Tayman > -----Original Message----- > From: Barbara Klein [mailto:bklein@KELLER.CLARKE.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 2:12 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: MSDS for paint > > > I have a question for discussion. There is a concern in our drama > department about the MSDS forms required for the paint that > they use to > paint their sets. They use all latex paints from the same > supplier. Is > one MSDS sheet for latex paint sufficient or are the formulations for > the different colors different enough that they need one > sheet for each > color? > > Thanks for your help. Your ideas have been very helpful so far > > barb > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:40:04 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Terri Hellman Subject: Re: MSDS for paint MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My understanding is that you do not need an MSDS for consumer products if they are used in the frequency and as they were inteded for use. For the art department painting sets I would think having an MSDS on hand for each type of paint and for any cleaners/solvents they use would be reasonable. Tayman, Tammy wrote: > Is this a consumer product? I've been told that we don't need MSDS's for > consumer products. Anyone else know about this? > > Tammy Tayman > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Barbara Klein [mailto:bklein@KELLER.CLARKE.EDU] > > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 2:12 PM > > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > > Subject: MSDS for paint > > > > > > I have a question for discussion. There is a concern in our drama > > department about the MSDS forms required for the paint that > > they use to > > paint their sets. They use all latex paints from the same > > supplier. Is > > one MSDS sheet for latex paint sufficient or are the formulations for > > the different colors different enough that they need one > > sheet for each > > color? > > > > Thanks for your help. Your ideas have been very helpful so far > > > > barb > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:03:22 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Sharon Reed Subject: Re: Chem labels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hmmm... I thought as much too, but that's what I remember.... as I said, this was in another millennium, the beginning of my working career. Maybe we thought it was a high pH and it turned OUT to be dichromate solution, or a similar entity.... I guess I forgot to take my Gingko today!!! Sharon |--------+-----------------------------------> | | Robert Burns | | | | | | | | | 09/23/1999 02:26 PM | | | Please respond to | | | LABSAFETY-L Discussion | | | List | | | | |--------+-----------------------------------> >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU | | cc: (bcc: Sharon Reed/PEDNY/Pall/US) | | Subject: Re: Chem labels | >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| don't understand how bicarb could react at high pH. Are you sure it wasn't very low? Acid and bicarb react violently to generate CO2. "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Reed [mailto:Sharon_Reed@PALL.COM] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 13:50 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Chem labels I can say that, during my tenure at a large prestigious university a zillion years ago, I was called in many times to clean out the lab of a professor who had either left the university or retired, and MANY times there were countless unlabeled bottles of brown goo. One large vat of unlabeled goo looked very much like dichromate cleaning solution, and indeed had glassware sitting in it, so my boss told me to neutralize it with Bicarb. I started to, when it blew up.... literally, like an underwater charge had detonated!!! Fortunately I was wearing a face shield and rubber apron, and escaped relatively unscathed. I then took a tiny amount, diluted it and took a pH reading (yes, I am still hitting myself in the forehead for not having done this FIRST.... I was a young innocent who believed the boss knew best) and found a pH near 14. We never did find out what it WAS (before the days of EPA and HazWaste) but I neutralized it and.... God and the American People forgive me.... poured it down the drain. So CLEARLY LABEL EVERYTHING!!!! You never know who may have to deal with it if you don't, or can't, dispose of it yourself. Sharon |--------+-----------------------> | | Roberta Black| | | | | | | | | 09/23/1999 | | | 12:51 PM | | | Please | | | respond to | | | LABSAFETY-L | | | Discussion | | | List | | | | |--------+-----------------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -| | | | To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU | | cc: (bcc: Sharon Reed/PEDNY/Pall/US) | | Subject: Chem labels | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -| For the sake of those who must follow you, please label containers with name, formula, concentration where applicable and hazard. When I started as the first chem tech ever at my community college 20+years ago, there were solutions made by instructors labeled only Pb2+, Cu2+, etc. Now every bottle is labeled with class, experiment#, (IUPAC) chemical name, conc.& formula, date, then hazard stickers are placed left of the label. This way even students in beginning chemistry see the name as they will have to learn it, and the hazard label is there if they grab the wrong bottle. Can anyone tell me what TOTP is? Is it hazwaste? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:56:58 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jim Jenkins Subject: Re: MSDS for paint Comments: To: thellman@SCS.UNR.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm in general agreement that one MSDS per type of paint is probably enough unless the paint contains pigmenting agents that may be considered hazardous unto themselves. In our high school, there is currently a greater concern that paints be stored in appropriate lockable cabinets between uses for set construction. (The omnipresent fire codes and all come into play.) It would be wise to check with local fire officials and your insurance carrier to see if they have specific requirements. Jim Jenkins Chairman, Science Department John F. Hodge High School St. James, MO 65559 jjenkins@stjames.k12.mo.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:01:18 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: MSDS for paint Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Is this a consumer product? I've been told that we don't need MSDS's for >consumer products. Anyone else know about this? It's only a consumer product if you use it in the same manner and scale as a consumer. If you are painting large stage sets on a regular basis, the consumer product exemption probably doesn't apply. I venture that nearly all paint manufacturers provide MSDSs for their products, so you might as well have them. Fortunately, many paint companies list all of their colors in a product line on one MSDS, with a listing of individual product numbers and related information to indicate any colors with ingredients that present hazards not represented by the data sheet for the whole line. This allows a simple way to avoid creating a large file for one product line. Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 (610) 526-5166 | (610) 328-8564 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:01:23 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Sonja G. Ringen" Subject: Re: Chem labels MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bicarbonates and carbonates are both amphoteric compounds and react with both acids and bases. The reaction with bases at a high pH is a slower reaction than evolution of CO2 at a low pH. At the University of Wyoming, we use good, ol' cheap sodium bicarbonate as a neutralizer for corrosive spills over the entire pH range, with instructions about vigorous reactions and splattering. Sonja G. Ringen, Manager Environmental Health and Safety University of Wyoming Laramie, WY 82071-3413 ringen@uwyo.edu -----Original Message----- From: Robert Burns [mailto:RBURNS@RUETGERS-ORGANICS-CORP.COM] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 12:27 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Chem labels don't understand how bicarb could react at high pH. Are you sure it wasn't very low? Acid and bicarb react violently to generate CO2. "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Reed [mailto:Sharon_Reed@PALL.COM] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 13:50 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Chem labels I can say that, during my tenure at a large prestigious university a zillion years ago, I was called in many times to clean out the lab of a professor who had either left the university or retired, and MANY times there were countless unlabeled bottles of brown goo. One large vat of unlabeled goo looked very much like dichromate cleaning solution, and indeed had glassware sitting in it, so my boss told me to neutralize it with Bicarb. I started to, when it blew up.... literally, like an underwater charge had detonated!!! Fortunately I was wearing a face shield and rubber apron, and escaped relatively unscathed. I then took a tiny amount, diluted it and took a pH reading (yes, I am still hitting myself in the forehead for not having done this FIRST.... I was a young innocent who believed the boss knew best) and found a pH near 14. We never did find out what it WAS (before the days of EPA and HazWaste) but I neutralized it and.... God and the American People forgive me.... poured it down the drain. So CLEARLY LABEL EVERYTHING!!!! You never know who may have to deal with it if you don't, or can't, dispose of it yourself. Sharon |--------+-----------------------> | | Roberta Black| | | | | | | | | 09/23/1999 | | | 12:51 PM | | | Please | | | respond to | | | LABSAFETY-L | | | Discussion | | | List | | | | |--------+-----------------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -| | | | To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU | | cc: (bcc: Sharon Reed/PEDNY/Pall/US) | | Subject: Chem labels | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -| For the sake of those who must follow you, please label containers with name, formula, concentration where applicable and hazard. When I started as the first chem tech ever at my community college 20+years ago, there were solutions made by instructors labeled only Pb2+, Cu2+, etc. Now every bottle is labeled with class, experiment#, (IUPAC) chemical name, conc.& formula, date, then hazard stickers are placed left of the label. This way even students in beginning chemistry see the name as they will have to learn it, and the hazard label is there if they grab the wrong bottle. Can anyone tell me what TOTP is? Is it hazwaste? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:06:41 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: Chem labels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bicarbonates are buffers- can convert to carbonates at high pH and CO2 at low pH. I doubt carbonate will react to make anything at high pH. I'd like to see the balanced equation for reaction of sodium bicarbonate with (say) sodium hydroxide. "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Sonja G. Ringen [mailto:Ringen@UWYO.EDU] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 15:01 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Chem labels Bicarbonates and carbonates are both amphoteric compounds and react with both acids and bases. The reaction with bases at a high pH is a slower reaction than evolution of CO2 at a low pH. At the University of Wyoming, we use good, ol' cheap sodium bicarbonate as a neutralizer for corrosive spills over the entire pH range, with instructions about vigorous reactions and splattering. Sonja G. Ringen, Manager Environmental Health and Safety University of Wyoming Laramie, WY 82071-3413 ringen@uwyo.edu -----Original Message----- From: Robert Burns [mailto:RBURNS@RUETGERS-ORGANICS-CORP.COM] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 12:27 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Chem labels don't understand how bicarb could react at high pH. Are you sure it wasn't very low? Acid and bicarb react violently to generate CO2. "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Reed [mailto:Sharon_Reed@PALL.COM] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 13:50 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Chem labels I can say that, during my tenure at a large prestigious university a zillion years ago, I was called in many times to clean out the lab of a professor who had either left the university or retired, and MANY times there were countless unlabeled bottles of brown goo. One large vat of unlabeled goo looked very much like dichromate cleaning solution, and indeed had glassware sitting in it, so my boss told me to neutralize it with Bicarb. I started to, when it blew up.... literally, like an underwater charge had detonated!!! Fortunately I was wearing a face shield and rubber apron, and escaped relatively unscathed. I then took a tiny amount, diluted it and took a pH reading (yes, I am still hitting myself in the forehead for not having done this FIRST.... I was a young innocent who believed the boss knew best) and found a pH near 14. We never did find out what it WAS (before the days of EPA and HazWaste) but I neutralized it and.... God and the American People forgive me.... poured it down the drain. So CLEARLY LABEL EVERYTHING!!!! You never know who may have to deal with it if you don't, or can't, dispose of it yourself. Sharon |--------+-----------------------> | | Roberta Black| | | | | | | | | 09/23/1999 | | | 12:51 PM | | | Please | | | respond to | | | LABSAFETY-L | | | Discussion | | | List | | | | |--------+-----------------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -| | | | To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU | | cc: (bcc: Sharon Reed/PEDNY/Pall/US) | | Subject: Chem labels | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -| For the sake of those who must follow you, please label containers with name, formula, concentration where applicable and hazard. When I started as the first chem tech ever at my community college 20+years ago, there were solutions made by instructors labeled only Pb2+, Cu2+, etc. Now every bottle is labeled with class, experiment#, (IUPAC) chemical name, conc.& formula, date, then hazard stickers are placed left of the label. This way even students in beginning chemistry see the name as they will have to learn it, and the hazard label is there if they grab the wrong bottle. Can anyone tell me what TOTP is? Is it hazwaste? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:18:08 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Robert N. Nelson" Subject: Re: Chem labels In-Reply-To: <6360B2C0C2B6D111827000AA00DD928EE288BA@mailhorse.uwyo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 13:01 9/23/99 -0600, you wrote: >Bicarbonates and carbonates are both amphoteric compounds and react with >both acids and bases. The reaction with bases at a high pH is a slower >reaction than evolution of CO2 at a low pH. >At the University of Wyoming, we use good, ol' cheap sodium bicarbonate as a >neutralizer for corrosive spills over the entire pH range, with instructions >about vigorous reactions and splattering. > >Sonja G. Ringen, Manager >Environmental Health and Safety >University of Wyoming >Laramie, WY 82071-3413 >ringen@uwyo.edu I am puzzled by the above statement. While bicarbonate ion will indeed react with hydroxide ion to give carbonate ion plus water (HCO3~- + OH~- = CO3~2- + H2O) there will be no CO2 produced in this reaction. I do not believe that there is any plausible reaction which can be written in aqueous solution between hydroxide ion and carbonate ion. Bicarbonate is indeed a useful "neutralizer" for acids and bases but carbonate ion would not be. Note however, that while in acid we have permanently removed the hydrogen ion when we converted bicarbonate plus hydrogen ion to water and carbon dioxide gas, in the case of base we have replaced the strong base hydroxide by the moderate base carbonate ion but have not greatly "neutralized" the solution although the pH will be somewhat lower. Bob Nelson Robert N. Nelson, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Chemistry, Chem. Dept. Georgia Southern Univ. P.O.B. 8064, Statesboro, GA 30460-8064 912-681-5675 (voice) 912-681-0699 (fax) ********* The opinions expressed here are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:20:33 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Henry Boyter Subject: Re: MSDS for paint MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It has to be a consumer product in consumer quantities (this is where most fail) used for consumer type purposes. Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational purposes only and should not be used as advice. No warranty or expression of professionalism is implied. *************** -----Original Message----- From: Tayman, Tammy To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Thursday, September 23, 1999 2:38 PM Subject: Re: MSDS for paint Is this a consumer product? I've been told that we don't need MSDS's for consumer products. Anyone else know about this? Tammy Tayman > -----Original Message----- > From: Barbara Klein [mailto:bklein@KELLER.CLARKE.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 2:12 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: MSDS for paint > > > I have a question for discussion. There is a concern in our drama > department about the MSDS forms required for the paint that > they use to > paint their sets. They use all latex paints from the same > supplier. Is > one MSDS sheet for latex paint sufficient or are the formulations for > the different colors different enough that they need one > sheet for each > color? > > Thanks for your help. Your ideas have been very helpful so far > > barb > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:21:35 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Henry Boyter Subject: Re: MSDS for paint MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You will probably find that the vendor has one sheet that covers for multiple formulations. As long as each paint is identified on the sheet it is ok. Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational purposes only and should not be used as advice. No warranty or expression of professionalism is implied. *************** -----Original Message----- From: Barbara Klein To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Thursday, September 23, 1999 2:35 PM Subject: MSDS for paint I have a question for discussion. There is a concern in our drama department about the MSDS forms required for the paint that they use to paint their sets. They use all latex paints from the same supplier. Is one MSDS sheet for latex paint sufficient or are the formulations for the different colors different enough that they need one sheet for each color? Thanks for your help. Your ideas have been very helpful so far barb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:25:45 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: John Elliott Subject: Re: Chem labels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From previous post: "Bicarbonates and carbonates are both amphoteric compounds and react with both acids and bases." I don't think so. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:09:05 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Karen Glover Organization: Clarke College Subject: More on MSDS for paint MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is still one question I haven't heard addressed yet. Often our drama people go to the local hardware store and buy a couple gallons of paint for a set. How should the MSDS sheet be obtained when the product is purchased from a local store? (1) Does the responsibility to obtain the MSDS sheet rest on the faculty member purchasing the paint? (2) If so, should I expect the hardware shop to provide the MSDS sheet? (3) If not, should we instruct the faculty member to contact the manufacturer directly? Thanks, again in advance. I, too, have valued the interaction with this list. Don Abramowitz wrote: > >Is this a consumer product? I've been told that we don't need MSDS's for > >consumer products. Anyone else know about this? > > It's only a consumer product if you use it in the same manner and scale as > a consumer. If you are painting large stage sets on a regular basis, the > consumer product exemption probably doesn't apply. > > I venture that nearly all paint manufacturers provide MSDSs for their > products, so you might as well have them. Fortunately, many paint > companies list all of their colors in a product line on one MSDS, with a > listing of individual product numbers and related information to indicate > any colors with ingredients that present hazards not represented by the > data sheet for the whole line. This allows a simple way to avoid creating > a large file for one product line. > > Don > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Donald Abramowitz, CIH > Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer > > Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College > 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue > Bryn Mawr PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 > (610) 526-5166 | (610) 328-8564 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:50:38 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Henry Boyter Subject: Re: More on MSDS for paint MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If a large paint store, they usually have them. If like Wal-Mart, call the 800 number on the can. Very easy to get. Who does this will depend on who has been assigned responsibility in your school. Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational purposes only and should not be used as advice. No warranty or expression of professionalism is implied. ***************************************************************** -----Original Message----- From: Karen Glover To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Thursday, September 23, 1999 6:10 PM Subject: More on MSDS for paint There is still one question I haven't heard addressed yet. Often our drama people go to the local hardware store and buy a couple gallons of paint for a set. How should the MSDS sheet be obtained when the product is purchased from a local store? (1) Does the responsibility to obtain the MSDS sheet rest on the faculty member purchasing the paint? (2) If so, should I expect the hardware shop to provide the MSDS sheet? (3) If not, should we instruct the faculty member to contact the manufacturer directly? Thanks, again in advance. I, too, have valued the interaction with this list. Don Abramowitz wrote: > >Is this a consumer product? I've been told that we don't need MSDS's for > >consumer products. Anyone else know about this? > > It's only a consumer product if you use it in the same manner and scale as > a consumer. If you are painting large stage sets on a regular basis, the > consumer product exemption probably doesn't apply. > > I venture that nearly all paint manufacturers provide MSDSs for their > products, so you might as well have them. Fortunately, many paint > companies list all of their colors in a product line on one MSDS, with a > listing of individual product numbers and related information to indicate > any colors with ingredients that present hazards not represented by the > data sheet for the whole line. This allows a simple way to avoid creating > a large file for one product line. > > Don > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Donald Abramowitz, CIH > Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer > > Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College > 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue > Bryn Mawr PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 > (610) 526-5166 | (610) 328-8564 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:03:07 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Chem labels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/23/99 3:06:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RBURNS@RUETGERS-ORGANICS-CORP.COM writes: << don't understand how bicarb could react at high pH. Are you sure it wasn't very low? Acid and bicarb react violently to generate CO2. >> Isn't bicarb amphoteric? ... Jim What does that mean anyway? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 01:35:02 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: Chem labels In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:51 AM 9/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >For the sake of those who must follow you, please label containers with name, formula, concentration where applicable and hazard. When I started as the first chem tech ever at my community college 20+years ago, there were solutions made by instructors labeled only Pb2+, Cu2+, etc. Now every bottle is labeled with class, experiment#, (IUPAC) chemical name, conc.& formula, date, then hazard stickers are placed left of the label. This way even students in beginning chemistry see the name as they will have to learn it, and the hazard label is there if they grab the wrong bottle. Can anyone tell me what TOTP is? Is it hazwaste? * * * * And how do you label unknowns?? Reminds me of my qual organic Lab. Student who ran the stockroom, we anticipated would be a perfume or flavor chemist as he always knew what our unknowns were (the professor dished them out) from appearance and odor, within about the 1st 15 minutes, while we took half a semester to figure it out. (Children, this was back before mass spec., IR spec. and OSHA.) We hated him then. He later became editor of a prestigious journal and a Priestly Medal awardee. Mary Ann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 02:17:11 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: Air handlers and smoking In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm surprised no one has taken the guilty parties to task. In no particular order: the HVAC contractorl, the person that approved or didn't bother to check the contract, the engineer or architect who drew the plans up (if it was a larger job), any or all could be culpable. The vent should be made right, preferably as it should have been placed the first time, or at least extended out of the way at the cost of the guilty party. I'm fuming, as it was such a stupid mistake, or one caused by pinching pennies, or trying to make a dishonest buck. Mary Ann Solstad architect's daughter At 03:00 PM 9/22/99 -0400, you wrote: >I have an interesting question for the list: > >Are there any regulations/recommendations/requirements out there regarding >the placement of air intake vents for building air handlers? The air handle >for our building was recently replaced and they put in the air intake on the >side of the building about four feet above the ground, right next to where >the smokers congregate! Now, every time someone decides to have a >cigarette, our labs and my office (amongst other places) get filled with >cigarette smoke. I seem to recall something about requirements for where >the grills can be placed, but I can't remember where. Any help would be >appreciated! > >Thanks, > >Tammy Tayman > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 08:46:37 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: Chem labels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" It'll react both with acid and base: NaHCO3 + HCl -> CO2 + NaCl + H2O NaHCO3 + NaOH -> Na2CO3 + H2O Sodium carbonate, however, does not to my knowledge react with base. it will react with acid to form bicarbonate and then CO2. the original poster stated that when she added bicarb to some unknown it exploded. Sounds to me like acid, not base, since I can't see any gas evolution from base. I took issue with someone who said she used bicarb for all spills. I really wouldn't do that. "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Labsafe@AOL.COM [mailto:Labsafe@AOL.COM] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 22:03 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Chem labels In a message dated 9/23/99 3:06:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RBURNS@RUETGERS-ORGANICS-CORP.COM writes: << don't understand how bicarb could react at high pH. Are you sure it wasn't very low? Acid and bicarb react violently to generate CO2. >> Isn't bicarb amphoteric? ... Jim What does that mean anyway? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 08:48:00 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: Chem labels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Can one label unknowns with a code number and the proper hazard information? "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Mary Ann Solstad [mailto:msolstad@MEDIAONE.NET] Sent: Friday, September 24, 1999 1:35 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Chem labels At 09:51 AM 9/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >For the sake of those who must follow you, please label containers with name, formula, concentration where applicable and hazard. When I started as the first chem tech ever at my community college 20+years ago, there were solutions made by instructors labeled only Pb2+, Cu2+, etc. Now every bottle is labeled with class, experiment#, (IUPAC) chemical name, conc.& formula, date, then hazard stickers are placed left of the label. This way even students in beginning chemistry see the name as they will have to learn it, and the hazard label is there if they grab the wrong bottle. Can anyone tell me what TOTP is? Is it hazwaste? * * * * And how do you label unknowns?? Reminds me of my qual organic Lab. Student who ran the stockroom, we anticipated would be a perfume or flavor chemist as he always knew what our unknowns were (the professor dished them out) from appearance and odor, within about the 1st 15 minutes, while we took half a semester to figure it out. (Children, this was back before mass spec., IR spec. and OSHA.) We hated him then. He later became editor of a prestigious journal and a Priestly Medal awardee. Mary Ann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 10:31:46 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: Chem labels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ** Reply Requested by 10/1/1999 (Friday) ** In regard to labels for unknowns in chem lab, we number them. The instructor has the key that lists the numbers and the compounds in each vial. The chem lab coordinator also has the key. When the vials are turned in to the stock room they are batched and labeled accordingly. For what its worth, Janeen. :):):):):):):):):):):):) Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 10:35:53 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Naomi Kelly Subject: Re: Chem labels In-Reply-To: <557A869D0907D31195D000508B085CD20FF144@ROCMAIL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes. This code number would then be connected back to a log book giving more specific information. However, the log book should be readily accessible--many times these books are not to be found at the time this material is declared waste.. At 08:48 AM 9/24/99 -0400, you wrote: >Can one label unknowns with a code number and the proper hazard information? > >"Semper Adventurus!" > >Robert L. Burns >Group Leader, R&D >Ruetgers Organics Corporation >Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com >Phone 814 231 9214 > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mary Ann Solstad [mailto:msolstad@MEDIAONE.NET] >Sent: Friday, September 24, 1999 1:35 >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject: Re: Chem labels > > >At 09:51 AM 9/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >>For the sake of those who must follow you, please label containers with >name, formula, concentration where applicable and hazard. When I started >as the first chem tech ever at my community college 20+years ago, there >were solutions made by instructors labeled only Pb2+, Cu2+, etc. Now every >bottle is labeled with class, experiment#, (IUPAC) chemical name, conc.& >formula, date, then hazard stickers are placed left of the label. This way >even students in beginning chemistry see the name as they will have to >learn it, and the hazard label is there if they grab the wrong bottle. Can >anyone tell me what TOTP is? Is it hazwaste? > * * * * >And how do you label unknowns?? Reminds me of my qual organic Lab. >Student who ran the stockroom, we anticipated would be a perfume or flavor >chemist as he always knew what our unknowns were (the professor dished >them out) from appearance and odor, within about the 1st 15 minutes, while >we took half a semester to figure it out. (Children, this was back before >mass spec., IR spec. and OSHA.) We hated him then. He later became editor >of a prestigious journal and a Priestly Medal awardee. > >Mary Ann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 07:52:53 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Roberta Black Subject: Re: Chem labels--UNKS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We label unknowns with class & experiment, number and date at the bottom. A 5X8 ring-binder cardfile (Blue Book) is created for each semester with all the lab preps and unknown keys, and then are prong-fastened together at the end of the semester. I have these going back to '76. Students are informed to treat all unknowns as the max. hazard any of lot poses. I have considered putting the small hazard icons on unknowns, say all flammable liquids, if part of the batch was. Pax et bonum ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:56:01 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "L. James Stock III" <34EMQ6K@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Subject: Re: Chem labels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Interesting story but how do you neutralize a strong base (pH 14) with a base (Sodium bicarbonate)? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:12:23 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Melonee Cruse Organization: Chaffey College Subject: Re: Acid/Base Neutralization MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Does anyone know a good neutralizer or sorbent for small (less than 100ml) Ammonium Hydroxide (concentrated to 0.1M) spills. We've been told by the chemistry person to use baking soda (sodium hydrogen carbonate). Most laboratory base spill are neutralized with citric acid. Any suggestions? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:30:46 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: Acid/Base Neutralization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" When I used a lot of ammonium hydroxide in the lab, I kept a bottle of household vinegar for spills. It's really good to wash caustic off your fingers too, if that happens. Vinegar, as you may know, is about 5% acetic acid. "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Melonee Cruse [mailto:mcruse@BUNNY.CHAFFEY.CC.CA.US] Sent: Friday, September 24, 1999 15:12 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Acid/Base Neutralization Does anyone know a good neutralizer or sorbent for small (less than 100ml) Ammonium Hydroxide (concentrated to 0.1M) spills. We've been told by the chemistry person to use baking soda (sodium hydrogen carbonate). Most laboratory base spill are neutralized with citric acid. Any suggestions? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:33:44 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: Chem labels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" You don't, of course. One of our plants once tried to use a sodium hydroxide scrubber for ethylamine. That doesn't work either. "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: L. James Stock III [mailto:34EMQ6K@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU] Sent: Friday, September 24, 1999 15:56 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Chem labels Interesting story but how do you neutralize a strong base (pH 14) with a base (Sodium bicarbonate)? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:38:55 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mike Pirrello Subject: Re: Acid/Base Neutralization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Although it achieves the neutralization, the problem with citric acid as a neutralization agent is that it tends to make a gooey mess. Bicarb generally does the trick, and for inexperienced people, the bubbling gives some indication of when to stop adding neutralization agent. However, if you add too much bicarb, scraping solidified clumps off the floor can take most of an afternoon (voice of experience, I got to clean up somebody else's overzealousness). You might also want to consider monosodium phosphate. In general, phosphoric acid (and salts) make for "gentler" neutralization agents because being a triprotic acid, you're less likely to overshoot the pH you're aiming for (more plateaus on the neutralization curve - anyone have their freshman chem text handy?). Similarly, you can use trisodium phosphate for acids. If you really want an "all-in-one," I suppose you could even start with disodium phosphate for either acids or bases, but then you have to use more neutralization agent. Michael Pirrello, CHMM mpirrello@trimeris.com -----Original Message----- From: Melonee Cruse [mailto:mcruse@BUNNY.CHAFFEY.CC.CA.US] Sent: Friday, September 24, 1999 3:12 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Acid/Base Neutralization Does anyone know a good neutralizer or sorbent for small (less than 100ml) Ammonium Hydroxide (concentrated to 0.1M) spills. We've been told by the chemistry person to use baking soda (sodium hydrogen carbonate). Most laboratory base spill are neutralized with citric acid. Any suggestions? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:47:13 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mike Pirrello Subject: Re: Acid/Base Neutralization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Whoops, I got distracted on that earlier reply. The "Plop-plop fizz-fizz" of bicarbonate works better for acid spills than for base spills. Michael Pirrello, CHMM mpirrello@trimeris.com -----Original Message----- From: Melonee Cruse [mailto:mcruse@BUNNY.CHAFFEY.CC.CA.US] Sent: Friday, September 24, 1999 3:12 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Acid/Base Neutralization Does anyone know a good neutralizer or sorbent for small (less than 100ml) Ammonium Hydroxide (concentrated to 0.1M) spills. We've been told by the chemistry person to use baking soda (sodium hydrogen carbonate). Most laboratory base spill are neutralized with citric acid. Any suggestions? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 08:07:24 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Grounding Large Solvent Containers Comments: To: Safety , nsela-l@science.coe.uwf.edu, Safe-NZ@niwa.cri.nz, NAOSMM@listserv.rice.edu, hs-canada@ccohs.ca, chemed-l@atlantis.uwf.edu, dchas-l@siu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently on the SAFETY list, there was discussion about storage rooms. The following question was asked .... << Scott: Does the room also have a grounded bonding strap connected to the containers to prevent static discharge while dispensing the flammables? Gord Taylor >> My question (having recently seen another one that wasn't) is whether the paint on the drum is removed so that the alligator clip on the bonding strap really makes contact with bare metal. Otherwise, what you've got is the sad illusion of a ground and no static discharge protection. Remember the Gotham Ink Company in Marlboro, Massachusetts? .... Jim Kaufman ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, Director The Laboratory Safety Workshop Safety in Science Education 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 Cell: 508-574-6264 Email: labsafe@aol.com Web Site: http://www.labsafety.org/ ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 21:10:09 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Rich Bowen Subject: room usage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This question is primarily for those of you in a high school situation but responses from anyone with any knowledge are welcomed. The question - What are the liability concerns towards a chemistry if his or her chemistry room is used by non-science oriented classes (in our case, primarily home economics). These classrooms do contain stock chemicals, solutions, and usable natural gas. We would like to address this problem with the administrators and I would like some concrete answers to be able to give him. Rich Bowen CHO - Pennsbury High School, Pennsylvania ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:42:45 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: room usage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Rich. This is always a problem in academia! Administration wants to maximize usage to maximize the return on the investment in the facility, while us science types pull our hair out over the inappropriate use of our lab spaces. JUST SAY NO! Home economics in a chem lab? Do they cook over the bunsen burners or what? I could not think of a more inappropriate paring of activities for a chem lab. We used to use the chem lab/classroom for physics too. This seemed to be more appropriate. It still means extra work for the chemist to insure the space is cleaned up prior to non chem activities, but at least it is still a lab course with a greater awareness of safety issues. Don't get me wrong, housekeeping is imperative in the lab, but trying to decon the whole place to make it safe for food prep just seems like a stretch to me. Any and all chemicals and solutions would have to be removed from the space even if there will be another lab that day. It sounds like a nightmare to me. We have similar issues with using a bio lab for Microbiology and into to bio labs. Intro courses utilize a lot of non hazardous lab exercises, while micro use E. coli and the like. Making sure surfaces have been properly disinfected and all cultures and biowaste removed prior to and into course can be difficult but is essential to the safety of the next lab group. Here we are talking an older group of students with more years of experience in lab settings than a high school population. It is not prudent to use lab/classroom areas for non science classes or meeting type activities. For what its worth, Janeen. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 07:57:52 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jim Jenkins Subject: Re: room usage Comments: To: Chmtchr@AOL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Science rooms, especially chemistry rooms, should never be used for any class other than what they are designed for. The same holds true for using other classrooms for science rooms. Jim Jenkins Chairman, Science Department John F. Hodge High School 101 E. Scioto St. James, MO 65559 jjenkins@stjames.k12.mo.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 07:01:28 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: room usage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Rich - Janeen is right. And if you need any regulations to support common sense, you might refer to the OSHA Sanitation standard (1910.141(g)), which prohibits food and beverage consumption, storage, and handling in areas exposed to toxic materials. Ben Greene ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:23:56 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Index-of-Refraction Oils Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm attempting to track down hazard/ingredient information on an ancient (old, anyway) set of dozens of "index of refraction" oils gifted to me for disposal from a Geology lab, complete with a thoroughly rusted-from-within steel storage case, acrid odor, and little in the way of remaining labels. I'm told that the higher index oils (>1.8) are especially toxic, and that some possible ingredients include: PCBs, alpha-monochloronaphthalene, diiodomethane, selenium, and sulfur. Can anyone shed any light on this category of product, or direct me to info sources? Many thanks, Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 (610) 526-5166 | (610) 328-8564 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:42:04 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: Index-of-Refraction Oils MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Don, Back when I was in college and right after I graduated, I worked for R. P. Cargille in Cedar Grove NJ making refractive index standards. That was back in the mid 60's, which dates me! We made them from chloro, bromo, and iodo naphthalenes, and some arsenic tribromide. I'd try to contact Cargille. They were still in business 15 years ago. "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Don Abramowitz [mailto:dabramo1@SWARTHMORE.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 16:24 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Index-of-Refraction Oils I'm attempting to track down hazard/ingredient information on an ancient (old, anyway) set of dozens of "index of refraction" oils gifted to me for disposal from a Geology lab, complete with a thoroughly rusted-from-within steel storage case, acrid odor, and little in the way of remaining labels. I'm told that the higher index oils (>1.8) are especially toxic, and that some possible ingredients include: PCBs, alpha-monochloronaphthalene, diiodomethane, selenium, and sulfur. Can anyone shed any light on this category of product, or direct me to info sources? Many thanks, Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Donald Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 (610) 526-5166 | (610) 328-8564 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:55:38 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "David L. Turner" Organization: YSI, Inc. Subject: Subject: Re: Deaf chemistry Student In-Reply-To: <199909180502.AAA29840@saluki-mail.siu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I investigated what to do to help a deaf employee here with the Job Accomodation Network (JAN) and other sources. Suggestions made regarding emergency response included: having available preprinted cards with simple messages like "Fire" and "Evacuate" for support personnel to use for quick communication involving the person in the process to get buy-in and avoid the "they have to do it for me" response (not that I think this person has this view, not knowing him/her) providing/have available a flashlight to enable visual communication in case power AND emergency lights go out. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sitting quietly, doing nothing. The grass grows by itself. Regards, David Turner YSI Safety & Environmental Coordinator 1725 Brannum Lane Yellow Springs, Ohio 45387 Email: DTurner@YSI.com Phone 1-937-767-1685 ext. 270 Facmetaphor: 1-937-767-9353 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:57:49 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Robert Burns Subject: Re: Index-of-Refraction Oils MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Here's Cargille's web page address. it's under construction, but the phone number is there. http://www.cargille.com/ "Semper Adventurus!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D Ruetgers Organics Corporation Email rburns@ruetgers-organics-corp.com Phone 814 231 9214 -----Original Message----- From: Don Abramowitz [mailto:dabramo1@SWARTHMORE.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 16:24 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Index-of-Refraction Oils I'm attempting to track down hazard/ingredient information on an ancient (old, anyway) set of dozens of "index of refraction" oils gifted to me for disposal from a Geology lab, complete with a thoroughly rusted-from-within steel storage case, acrid odor, and little in the way of remaining labels. I'm told that the higher index oils (>1.8) are especially toxic, and that some possible ingredients include: PCBs, alpha-monochloronaphthalene, diiodomethane, selenium, and sulfur. Can anyone shed any light on this category of product, or direct me to info sources? Many thanks, Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Donald Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 (610) 526-5166 | (610) 328-8564 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 14:31:31 +0300 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Poulose, John V" Subject: Re: Grounding Large Solvent Containers MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jim, Could you briefly update me on the Gotham Ink Co., Malboro? Curious to learn from exactly what happened there. We have lots of 55 Gal flammable solvent drums in our Octane Testing lab storage room, that automatically dispense these solvents by the use of a pump. I recently noticed the alligators crunching on painted metal ! Thanks, John Poulos Lab Scientist Refinery Lab/ARAMCO, Saudi Arabia -----Original Message----- From: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List [mailto:LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu] On Behalf Of Labsafe@AOL.COM Sent: 25 September 1999 15:07 To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Grounding Large Solvent Containers Recently on the SAFETY list, there was discussion about storage rooms. The following question was asked .... << Scott: Does the room also have a grounded bonding strap connected to the containers to prevent static discharge while dispensing the flammables? Gord Taylor >> My question (having recently seen another one that wasn't) is whether the paint on the drum is removed so that the alligator clip on the bonding strap really makes contact with bare metal. Otherwise, what you've got is the sad illusion of a ground and no static discharge protection. Remember the Gotham Ink Company in Marlboro, Massachusetts? .... Jim Kaufman ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, Director The Laboratory Safety Workshop Safety in Science Education 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 Cell: 508-574-6264 Email: labsafe@aol.com Web Site: http://www.labsafety.org/ ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:31:35 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Martin Besant Subject: Re: LABSAFETY-L Digest - 25 Sep 1999 to 27 Sep 1999 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Room Usage NY State recently issued a new handbook of Chemical Storage Guidelines. These rules pertain to more than science classes: including art technology and home ec. The bottom line is- keep amounts small and put them away after every use. If not in a store room, then in a cabinet and locked. While the interpretation is my own, I think I can understand legalese well enough to cover my butt. These Ed Dept guidelines will probably have the force of law as "reasonable and prudent practice" My colleagues love to leave stuff on carts for the next period or for weeks waiting for every absentee to finally get the work done. I think they are hanging themselves out to dry. Since the Guidelines were distributed under the aegis of the Board of Ed, liability coverage may not be available (Hold safe) If your state or board lacks a similar document, you may be legally OK. But the fact is some innocent kid could still get injured and it would be your moral fault For what its worth Marty Besant West Seneca East Sr HS A suburb of Buffalo, NY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:18:46 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Sharyn Bake Subject: RCRA/HazWaste CD-ROM Tutorial Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Listers, This announcement is a repeat of a prior announcement concerning the availability of a computer-based tutorial for hazardous waste generators. -------------------- Interactive Computer-Based Training Program For Hazardous Waste Generators The University of Colorado Health Sciences Center has developed an interactive CD-ROM training program for generators of hazardous waste. This fully interactive multimedia tutorial provides an hour-long training program on the topics of * the impact of hazardous waste on the environment and human health * the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act * the Colorado Hazardous Waste Regulations, including information on what is a hazardous waste, and generator responsibilities (mirrors those of the EPA) * hazardous waste management procedures related to waste storage and accumulation, container management, chemical segregation and storage, preparedness and prevention, contingency planning and emergency response. The tutorial may serve as initial or annual refresher generator training. It is suitable for delivery at a single computer or as a laptop projected program in a classroom setting with an instructor controlling the pace of the presentation. The CD-ROM was created by Sharyn Baker, MA, Instructor for Facilities Operations, at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center. She has 25 years experience designing and providing environmental, safety and health training. The cross-platform CD was written using Macromedia Director which requires no special software on the users computer. TO ORDER This program is available for $30.00 plus $5.00 shipping and handling to all educational and non-profit institutions in the State of Colorado. For out of state educational institutions and non-profit organizations the cost is $50.00 plus $5.00 shipping and handling. The program is also available to businesses at a cost of $100.00 plus $5.00 shipping and handling. Specific customization of the program is available at a reasonable cost. Orders may be sent to the attention of Sharyn Baker at the address below. Checks are the only form of payment acceptable at this time and should be made payable to the: UCHSC Department of Facilities Operations For further information about this program contact her at the address, email or phone number below. Sharyn Baker Instructor/Computer-Based-Training Design University of Colorado Health Sciences Center Department of Facilities Operations Mailstop A078 4200 E. 9th Avenue Denver, Colorado 80262 Email: sharyn.baker@uchsc.edu Office phone: (303) 315-8003 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 06:57:19 EDT Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Grounding Large Solvent Containers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-09-28 18:50:05 EDT, you write: << Could you briefly update me on the Gotham Ink Co., Malboro? Curious to learn from exactly what happened there. We have lots of 55 Gal flammable solvent drums in our Octane Testing lab storage room, that automatically dispense these solvents by the use of a pump. I recently noticed the alligators crunching on painted metal ! >> In Feb 1989, Remaldo Hoffman, 22, needed some toluene. He took a container and placed it under the spigot of a 55 gal drum of toluene. He opened the spigot. The free fall of the toluene through the air created a static discharge that ignited the toluene. Five people were hospitalized in the explosion, the place was destroyed and he was killed. OSHA has visited eight years earlier and recommended that they use grounding and bonding wires. They ignored OSHA's suggestion! ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:44:12 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: Grounding Large Solvent Containers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >In Feb 1989, Remaldo Hoffman, 22, needed some toluene. He took a container >and placed it under the spigot of a 55 gal drum of toluene. He opened the >spigot. Was it a metal container? What size of container? Julie O'Brien Archimica (Florida) and EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville afn35210@afn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:59:20 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julianne Braun Subject: Re: Grounding Large Solvent Containers In-Reply-To: <89050473.25234a8f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks, Jim, for the brief re-cap of the Gotham Ink event. I wasn't familiar with it. Throughout this discussion on grounding of large solvent containers, I've been curious about a couple of things. (I may have missed some early part of the discussion, since I've only recently subscribed to the list.) The things that seem to be of importance are knowing how to prevent this sort of event from happening again elsewhere and understanding how it happened so that we can prevent recurrences. I'm confused by your comment: "The free fall of the toluene through the air created a static discharge" This would suggest that toluene falling through the air from a plastic drum would have the same potential for static discharge. It's always been my limited understanding of static electricity that the electrical charge builds up in a conducting material undergoing friction. The charge would then discharge or spark to the nearest conducting material when the charge was of sufficient intensity to cross the gap. With respect to solvent drums, I've always understood the charge to build up in the metal drum due the motion of the solvent being dispensed (said motion occurring whether the solvent is dispensed by gravity feed or by pump). When the charge builds up it then sparks to the nearest conductor which might be a metal can into which the solvent is being dispensed, or the body of the person doing the dispensing, or many other possible conductors. Grounding straps, at least in the manner that I understand them, seem to act to so vastly increase the size of the conducting surface that the charge is distributed/diluted and therefore never able to gain enough intensity to jump a gap. As to how to keep this from happening, it seems to be agreed that grounding straps and/or bonding straps between drum and solvent can are the best means of distributing the charge and/or reducing the differential between the two most likely conductors. Here I'm confused by the discussion of the effect of paint blocking the grounding. There seems to be the suggestion that the paint creates that gap across which a spark can occur. Perhaps I'm naive and expect too much of folks who are "in the know", but wouldn't it be fairly simple to quantitate a level of resistance that would be sufficient to allow the charge buildup to occur to an intensity that would sparc? From my basic auto repairs I know that spark plug/ignition wires in cars are determined to be good or bad based on the amount of resistance per length of wire. Couldn't we use a similar technique to monitor the efficacy of our bonding straps? Perhaps measure the resistance between the drum surface and the alligator clip. I have no idea what would be an acceptable resistance (100 ohms, 1000 ohms?). Well, that's my understanding of the "how" and "how to prevent" and I'd love to hear from anyone who can add to it or help dispel any misconceptions. Julianne M. Braun, PhD Franklin Teaching Fellow Dept of Chemistry, Univ of Georgia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 08:18:22 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "L. James Stock III" <34EMQ6K@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Subject: Re: Grounding Large Solvent Containers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I always scrape the paint off my 55-gal drums not only for the grounding cable BUT ALSO for the bonding cable. I also stopped using spigots with the drums horizontal. I now use rotary pumps only and keep the drums upright. It's great, 10 rotations and a 1 gallon safety can is filled. You can buy these ~$200.00 great pumps from Fisher Scientific or Lab Safety Supply. You save floor space and eliminate the potential for spigot failure and a massive leak. It happened many years ago here at CMU in the basement of the science building in the Biology stockroom. Can you imagine 55 gallons of Formaldehyde on the floor when you come into work in the morning. I'm glad I didn't have to deal with that one. Not to beat a point to death but also keep an eye on the grounding clamps themselves. They are prone to rusting eventually and with a sufficient amount of oxide coating they will fail to make the proper electrical pathway to ground. I buy stainless steel cable from McMaster-Carr in Chicago and bonding clamps from Lab Safety Supply. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:31:05 -0400 Reply-To: "edmiston@bluffton.edu" Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Michael Edmiston Organization: Bluffton College Subject: Re: Grounding Large Solvent Containers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If it is true, as Jim K. says, that "The free fall of the toluene through the air created a static discharge that ignited the toluene," please tell me how grounding the can could possible prevent this from happening. Answer: It couldn't... you can't ground air. In fact, if static electricity is building up in the stream, having a good ground nearby (for it to spark to) could make the situation worse. Also, we see more and more plastic drums/containers holding flammable solvents. What good would grounding do in these situations? OSHA, and others, needs to rethink this grounding business. It doesn't make physical sense. I do not doubt that static discharges can cause fires and explosions. But grounding the container will not eliminate this problem. We are fooling ourselves if we breathe a sigh of relief after spending a bunch of time, money, and employee education getting all our metal containers grounded. That just doesn't prevent anything as far as I can see, and can actually make the situation worse. It might be more prudent to ask questions like "What kind of clothing was the worker wearing?" Silk clothing, acrylic sweaters, etc. are notorious for static electricity. Also, are there valve designs that can emit discharge streams that are less prone to static charge induction, i.e. do we want a laminar flow, do we want droplets, do we want chaotic flow? Perhaps someone knows of scenarios I am unaware of where grounded metal containers might be helpful, but I sure haven't heard any arguments yet that make physics sense. Michael D. Edmiston, Ph.D. Phone/voice-mail: 419-358-3270 Professor of Chemistry & Physics FAX: 419-358-3323 Chairman, Science Department E-Mail edmiston@bluffton.edu Bluffton College 280 West College Avenue Bluffton, OH 45817 -----Original Message----- From: Labsafe@AOL.COM [SMTP:Labsafe@AOL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 6:57 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Grounding Large Solvent Containers In a message dated 99-09-28 18:50:05 EDT, you write: << Could you briefly update me on the Gotham Ink Co., Malboro? Curious to learn from exactly what happened there. We have lots of 55 Gal flammable solvent drums in our Octane Testing lab storage room, that automatically dispense these solvents by the use of a pump. I recently noticed the alligators crunching on painted metal ! >> In Feb 1989, Remaldo Hoffman, 22, needed some toluene. He took a container and placed it under the spigot of a 55 gal drum of toluene. He opened the spigot. The free fall of the toluene through the air created a static discharge that ignited the toluene. Five people were hospitalized in the explosion, the place was destroyed and he was killed. OSHA has visited eight years earlier and recommended that they use grounding and bonding wires. They ignored OSHA's suggestion! ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:11:15 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jonathan Foglein Subject: Ammonium chloride cloud Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am writing this message on behalf of my equivalent in our Biology Department. Here in Chemistry, we perform the diffusion experiment using concentrated ammonia and concentrated hydrochloric acid. Using two cotton swabs, the students dip one end of each swab into one of the solutions and place them at either ends of a glass tube, and measure the distance from each end of the tube to where the cloud of ammonium chloride forms. In Chemistry, this experiment is done, of course, in fume hoods. In Biology, they do not have hoods and just perform the experiment on the bench. This morning, when I arrived, I noticed what I thought was smoke in the hallway. Looking into the lab, I could see smoke there as well. I did not discover until later that this smoke was a cloud of ammonium chloride. All of that to ask this: How harmful is this cloud? Where can I find written information to support the degree of hazard? The Bio Safety person wants to have that portion of the lab removed and wants some credible support. Thanks in advance, Jon Jonathan Foglein Instrument Coordinator/ Chemical Hygiene Officer *** NOTE NEW AREA CODE : 856 *** Department of Chemistry & Physics Rowan University 201 Mullica Hill Road Glassboro, NJ 08028-1702 Phone: 856-256-4500 x3578 Fax: 856-256-4921 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:22:41 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Warren C. Pinches" Subject: Re: Grounding Large Solvent Containers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I agree that pumping from a vertical drum is safer than using spigots in horizontal drums, but most pumps have either chemical compatibility problems (especially the o-ring seals) with many solvents, or have trouble with low-viscocity solvents such as light hydrocarbons or alcohols. Have you used these pumps successfully with solvents such as, for example, hexane or methanol? Warren C. Pinches, CSP, CHMM "L. James Stock III" <34EMQ6K@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> on 09/29/99 09:18:22 AM Please respond to LABSAFETY-L Discussion List To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU cc: (bcc: Warren Pinches) Subject: Re: Grounding Large Solvent Containers I always scrape the paint off my 55-gal drums not only for the grounding cable BUT ALSO for the bonding cable. I also stopped using spigots with the drums horizontal. I now use rotary pumps only and keep the drums upright. It's great, 10 rotations and a 1 gallon safety can is filled. You can buy these ~$200.00 great pumps from Fisher Scientific or Lab Safety Supply. You save floor space and eliminate the potential for spigot failure and a massive leak. It happened many years ago here at CMU in the basement of the science building in the Biology stockroom. Can you imagine 55 gallons of Formaldehyde on the floor when you come into work in the morning. I'm glad I didn't have to deal with that one. Not to beat a point to death but also keep an eye on the grounding clamps themselves. They are prone to rusting eventually and with a sufficient amount of oxide coating they will fail to make the proper electrical pathway to ground. I buy stainless steel cable from McMaster-Carr in Chicago and bonding clamps from Lab Safety Supply. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:37:32 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Warren C. Pinches" Subject: Re: Grounding Large Solvent Containers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It is my understanding that the passage of the solvent through the air contributes only slightly to the static buildup. (In a very humid environment, the air might even dissipate some of the static.) However, as you suggested in your fifth paragraph, the turbulence of splashing solvent tends to generate considerable static in the receiving vessel, making the bonding/grounding of that vessel all the more critical. When we design process tanks in my plant we always try to run inlet pipes to the bottom of the tank to minimize splashing and the buildup of static, rather than permitting free fall through air. Also, you are correct that grounding plastic or glass containers is pointless, although since static charges cannot migrate through these materials there is also less of a danger that the charges will concentrate and cause a spark -- generally you have only a low-energy corona discharge rather than a higher-energy spark discharge. At my plant we ban plastic safety cans or drums for flammables, except where their use is necessary for chemical compatibility reasons, precisely because they cannot be meaningfully grounded. One thing that might usefully be grounded on a plastic safety can would be the metal spark arrestor, since the turbulent flow at this point makes these devices into miniature static dynamos. You are also very correct that clothing is a major issue. At a former company I had to deal with large open vats of hexane; this was of course a bad design for many reasons. No one was permitted in that room wearing synthetic fiber clothing (we issued all-cotton work clothing) and everyone had to wear conductive shoes so they would continually "leak" static charges into the concrete floor (uncoated concrete tends to be slightly conductive due to water in the concrete pores). These sorts of precautions are fairly routine in large-scale industrial processing of flammable solvents. I believe that most oil refineries ban the use of synthetic fiber clothing, except Nomex clothing designed for use in flammable atmospheres. I read your message minutes after having an animated discussion with a lab supervisor over the relative merits of cotton vs. polyester lab coats. I believe that the majority opinion among safety professionals has been that polyester lab coats are a poor idea when working around flammables because in a flash fire the fibers will melt onto the skin, causing severe burns. This danger is heightened by the fact that polyester can generate static sufficient to ignite precisely such a flash fire. However, all-cotton lab coats cannot be made permanent-press, and thus far our lab people would rather be well-pressed than safe. Static generation and dissipation is a science unto itself; after a decade wrestling with the issue I still find myself learning more all the time. For the general list, I would recommend that anyone working with systems that transfer flammable liquids at a minimum get hold of a copy of NFPA 77, "Recommended Practices on Static Electricity"; NFPA is at 800-344-3555. British Standard BS5958 Part 2, "Control of Undesirable Static Electricity", also has a wealth of technical explanation; I got my copy (years ago) through Global Engineering Documents at 800-854-7179. Alas, like most consensus standards, neither are available on the Internet. Another basic but good reference (my copy is dated 1988) is "Generation and Control of Static Electricity", from the National Paint and Coatings Association, 202-462-6272 Persons with access to a good engineering library might try to get Plant/Operations Progress Vol 7, No. 1, which was devoted to static issues, including articles such as "Static Electricity: Rules for Plant Safety" (Expert Commission for Safety in the Swiss Chemical Industry), "Static Hazards of Drum Filling" (Laurence Britton and Jack Smith), "Systems for Electrostatic Evaluation in Industrial Silos" (Laurence Britton), "Static Electricity and Plastic Drums" (Louis Rosenthal), "The Use (and Misuse) of Bonding for Control of Static Ignition Hazards" (R. Mancini), and "Review of Literature Related to Human Spark Scenarios" (Brian Berkeley, Thomas Pratt, and George Williams). I once had the privilege of working with Laurence Britton and can recommend anything he has published on the subject. The Gotham Ink Company explosion happened only a few miles away from my plant, at the very time we were constructing our flammable solvent rooms. The incident had a major influence on our procedures and engineering. Warren C. Pinches, CSP, CHMM Purely personal opinions asked for and wanted by no one else. Michael Edmiston on 09/29/99 09:31:05 AM Please respond to "edmiston@bluffton.edu" To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU cc: (bcc: Warren Pinches) Subject: Re: Grounding Large Solvent Containers If it is true, as Jim K. says, that "The free fall of the toluene through the air created a static discharge that ignited the toluene," please tell me how grounding the can could possible prevent this from happening. Answer: It couldn't... you can't ground air. In fact, if static electricity is building up in the stream, having a good ground nearby (for it to spark to) could make the situation worse. Also, we see more and more plastic drums/containers holding flammable solvents. What good would grounding do in these situations? OSHA, and others, needs to rethink this grounding business. It doesn't make physical sense. I do not doubt that static discharges can cause fires and explosions. But grounding the container will not eliminate this problem. We are fooling ourselves if we breathe a sigh of relief after spending a bunch of time, money, and employee education getting all our metal containers grounded. That just doesn't prevent anything as far as I can see, and can actually make the situation worse. It might be more prudent to ask questions like "What kind of clothing was the worker wearing?" Silk clothing, acrylic sweaters, etc. are notorious for static electricity. Also, are there valve designs that can emit discharge streams that are less prone to static charge induction, i.e. do we want a laminar flow, do we want droplets, do we want chaotic flow? Perhaps someone knows of scenarios I am unaware of where grounded metal containers might be helpful, but I sure haven't heard any arguments yet that make physics sense. Michael D. Edmiston, Ph.D. Phone/voice-mail: 419-358-3270 Professor of Chemistry & Physics FAX: 419-358-3323 Chairman, Science Department E-Mail edmiston@bluffton.edu Bluffton College 280 West College Avenue Bluffton, OH 45817 -----Original Message----- From: Labsafe@AOL.COM [SMTP:Labsafe@AOL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 6:57 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Grounding Large Solvent Containers In a message dated 99-09-28 18:50:05 EDT, you write: << Could you briefly update me on the Gotham Ink Co., Malboro? Curious to learn from exactly what happened there. We have lots of 55 Gal flammable solvent drums in our Octane Testing lab storage room, that automatical