Use your browser's Find command to search for a word or phrase. Please contact swihart@purdue.edu if you know of a way to sort the archives. Gibberish passages are attachments, they do not archive well! HTML tags in list messages also do not always archive well. A double line as immediately below indicates the beginning of a new message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:16:10 -0500 From: "Stoll, Ilse (Ilse)" Subject: Re: Allentown Comments: To: Bob Burns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At this point the papers are just indicating that there will be a long investigation. The manufacturer indicated that distillation was done at the time of the explosion and that they were producing 50HA (50% hydroxylamine in water) from the sulfate. Ilse Stoll TRB198BG Environmental Laboratory Lucent Technologies 555 Union Blvd. Allentown, PA 18103 610.712.5505 voice 610.712.4400 fax > ---------- > From: Bob Burns[SMTP:rburns@bigfoot.com] > Reply To: Bob Burns > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 1999 7:08 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Allentown > > Hi Group, > > I've been watching the AP newswire for a follow-up to the Allentown > explosion story. Never did see one. Did anyone see any more information > other than the original story? I'd be particularly interested in why > hydroxylamine exploded, and the conditions under which it happened in view > of the hazard statements in Sax and the Merck Index and other places. > > I suppose there will be a story in C&EN about it. > > Bob > > "HAPPINESS IS A WARM PUPPY!" > > Bob & Evelyn Burns > Mill Hall, PA > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:23:45 -0500 From: "Stoll, Ilse (Ilse)" Subject: Re: flash points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thank you. Do you have a table for i-propanol or where can I find one? Ilse Stoll TRB198BG Environmental Laboratory Lucent Technologies 555 Union Blvd. Allentown, PA 18103 610.712.5505 voice 610.712.4400 fax > ---------- > From: Tony Haggerty[SMTP:techton@IHUG.CO.NZ] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:51 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: flash points > > <> > A copy in Word 6 for those without Internet access ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:34:13 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Seminars in Florida Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Kathy, Did you make one of the recent seminars we offered in florida? The State Department of Ed wants us to do 12 more next fall. Keep an eye on our schedule at the web site ... www.labsafety.org regards, ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:42:03 PST Reply-To: bbower@ora.fda.gov From: Betsy Bower Subject: Re: p-cresol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii p-cresol is also used in the U-shaped minimum/maximum thermometers used in microbiology labs and other areas where temperature ranges are important. We've had three of them break over the last 9 years. Every breakage created quite a stir because of the odor. The total amount of cresol in the thermometers is small, maybe a mL at the most, but it packs a wallop of a punch. One of the thermometers broke in a refrigerator/incubator. We scrubbed it down several times using a variety of soaps/solvents, let it air out on the loading dock for a week and it still has a distinctive odor... Lab coats, pants and shoes that have come into contact with the small spills have all been tossed out - the odor is that permeating. And it also numbs the nose quite efecctively. One of the breakages occured in a small laboratory off the main laboratory. The Microbiologist knew something was wrong, but didn't think it was that bad. Meanwhile people are scurrying around the lab trying to find the source of the odor. I opened the door to his lab and was blown away by the smell. The microbiologist had left to go out to lunch. I taped off the door, left a note specifically addressing the microbiologist, not to enter and went to suit up so I could locate and clean up the spill. I returned to find him poking around trying to find the broken thermometer himself, no protective gear, no respiratory protection... Luckily it was a friday afternoon and the lab had all weekend to clear out after the thermometer was found (it had broken after being placed in a drawer) and the spill cleaned up. I told the microbiologist to go home. I found him talking to his supervisor later, I told his supervisor to tell him to go home... he finally left. I tired to convince him shower at the lab and wear coveralls home, to no avail. I'm sure he didn't actually have any of the cresol on his clothes, the odor just "clings", but still... These incidents were a big motivating factor for purchasing recording thermometers for our lab... Betsy Bower bbower@ora.fda.gov ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:43:09 -0500 From: "L. James Stock III" <34EMQ6K@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Subject: Re: Formaldehyde and contacts We also recently had a situation with a phenolic compound, p-cresol.... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:17:12 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Website In-Reply-To: <4624C75E76CBD111B43500805F6FA8C101823788@pai820exch001u.micro.lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Howdy, It's been a long time in the making: if you're bored, check out the safety website for our College of Natural Sciences: http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety It's still under construction, but a there's fair bit of info posted (including, of course, links to LSW and NACHO!). Feedback, of course, is always welcome. Just don't ask me any technical questions about the site construction. NACHO listserv veterans will recognize a few ideas that people were tossing about, including the health & safety pledge on the homepage (written by yours truly based largely on what appeared on our list last April, signed by our Dean). Onward, JNR Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:03:46 PST Reply-To: bbower@ora.fda.gov From: Betsy Bower Subject: Re: p-cresol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii p-cresol is also used in the U-shaped minimum/maximum thermometers used in microbiology labs and other areas where temperature ranges are important. We've had three of them break over the last 9 years. Every breakage created quite a stir because of the odor. The total amount of cresol in the thermometers is small, maybe a mL at the most, but it packs a wallop of a punch. One of the thermometers broke in a refrigerator/incubator. We scrubbed it down several times using a variety of soaps/solvents, let it air out on the loading dock for a week and it still has a distinctive odor... Lab coats, pants and shoes that have come into contact with the small spills have all been tossed out - the odor is that permeating. And it also numbs the nose quite efecctively. One of the breakages occured in a small laboratory off the main laboratory. The Microbiologist knew something was wrong, but didn't think it was that bad. Meanwhile people are scurrying around the lab trying to find the source of the odor. I opened the door to his lab and was blown away by the smell. The microbiologist had left to go out to lunch. I taped off the door, left a note specifically addressed to the microbiologist, "Do not enter" and went to suit up so I could locate and clean up the spill. I returned to find him poking around trying to find the broken thermometer himself, no protective gear, no respiratory protection... Luckily it was a friday afternoon and the lab had all weekend to clear out after the thermometer was found (it had broken after being placed in a drawer, papers had to be tossed, but the drawer was epoxy paint covered, so cleaned up well) and the spill cleaned up. I told the microbiologist to go home. I found him talking to his supervisor later, I told his supervisor to tell him to go home - he was literally stinking up the place... he finally left. I tired to convince him shower at the lab and wear coveralls home, to no avail. I'm sure he didn't actually have any of the cresol on his clothes, the odor just "clings", but still... These incidents were a big motivating factor for purchasing recording thermometers for our lab... Betsy Bower bbower@ora.fda.gov ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:43:09 -0500 From: "L. James Stock III" <34EMQ6K@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Subject: Re: Formaldehyde and contacts We also recently had a situation with a phenolic compound, p-cresol.... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:55:47 -0600 From: EH&S Compliance Subject: Re: M E K Question I agree. I checked a MSDS on the material and there is no mention of peroxides formed. It is flammable (flash point open cup 30F (-1.1C) and flash point closed cup 20F (-6.7C)). The vapors are heavier than air and can travel back a considerable distance to a source of ignition and flash back. PEL 200ppm TLV 300ppm IDLH 3000ppm NFPA 1 3 0 HMIS 2 3 0 x Rebecca Levins EH&S Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 -----Original Message----- From: Tony Haggerty [SMTP:techton@IHUG.CO.NZ] Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:10 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: M E K Question Mark No one seems to have ventured an answer to your query so I'll put my 2 cents in and say that I do not believe that MEK spontaneously forms Peroxides. There is of course a Peroxide, MEKP, commonly used as a resin catalyst but this is manufactured. Tony H ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:59:21 -0700 From: "Sonja G. Ringen" Subject: Re: Columbia U. citation--what were the lab activities involved? MIME-version: 1.0 Jim's response on confusion over HazCom and the Lab Standard raises another point that I am having trouble with, too. And I would like to hear other people's experience on this issue. <> I hope the OSHA people in NY are doing a better job than some NY PESH enforcement officers. I has a very discouraging discussion with one about HazCom vs Lab Std. They were totally confused and simply did not understand the law. In particular, they failed to understand how the Lab Standard replaced the HazCom Std and the rest of Subpat Z in almost all respects. In fact, they thought that Subpart Z consisted of only 29CFR1910.1000!!! <> The University of Wyoming had an inspection by the Wyoming Worker's Safety (state equivalent of OSHA) in January based on a laboratory incident. A custodian cleaned a lab that had been closed and felt she had an exposure to radioactivity without proper training. We contested the citation, so they came up with another one and asked us if we could agree to that citation. We provided the documentation that showed they were wrong on that one, too. So, they've proposed another citation and have asked us if we agree. Of course, not. We had done nothing wrong. It gets old having to train state regulators on their own regulations. Has anybody else had incompetent regulators come through? And at what point does this kind of scenario end? Are they going to cite us just because they have to justify their trip to Laramie? Do most of you have qualified inspectors? Sonja Ringen, Manager Environmental Health and Safety University of Wyoming Laramie, WY 82071-3413 ringen@uwyo.edu ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE640D.3C2C56A6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Columbia U. citation--what were the lab activities = involved?

Jim's response on confusion over HazCom and the Lab = Standard raises another point that I am having trouble with, too.  = And I would like to hear other people's experience on this = issue.

<<SNIP>>
I hope the OSHA people in NY are doing a better job = than some NY PESH
enforcement officers.  I has a very = discouraging discussion with one about
HazCom
vs Lab Std.  They were totally confused and = simply did not understand the law.

In particular, they failed to understand how the Lab = Standard replaced the
HazCom Std and the rest of Subpat Z in almost all = respects.  In fact, they
thought that Subpart Z consisted of only = 29CFR1910.1000!!!
<<SNIP>>

The University of Wyoming had an inspection by the = Wyoming Worker's Safety (state equivalent of OSHA) in January based on = a laboratory incident.  A custodian cleaned a lab that had been = closed and felt she had an exposure to radioactivity without proper = training.

We contested the citation, so they came up with = another one and asked us if we could agree to that citation.  We = provided the documentation that showed they were wrong on that one, = too.  So, they've proposed another citation and have asked us if = we agree.  Of course, not.  We had done nothing = wrong.

It gets old having to train state regulators on their = own regulations.  Has anybody else had incompetent regulators come = through?  And at what point does this kind of scenario end?  = Are they going to cite us just because they have to justify their trip = to Laramie?  Do most of you have qualified inspectors?

Sonja Ringen, Manager
Environmental Health and Safety
University of Wyoming
Laramie, WY  82071-3413
ringen@uwyo.edu 

========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:29:04 -0600 From: James Hermann Subject: Re: Columbia Univ. fined $77,500 by OSHA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How many universities "... willfully violated the laboratory standard by failing to carry out the provisions of a written chemical hygiene plan." After all, we get to write our own CHP. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Madelyn Miller [SMTP:mmiller@ANDREW.CMU.EDU] Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 4:32 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Columbia Univ. fined $77,500 by OSHA Greetings, Check out this web site: http://www.osha.gov/media/oshnews/jan99/reg2ny111.html Columbia Univ. cited by OSHA for alleged willful and other safety and health violations: $77,500 in penalties proposed. Love this quote: "It is a serious matter when an institution such as a university fails to comply with OSHA standards by exposing its employees to a dangerous chemical such as formaldehyde without providing proper protection." Ouch! I dare say many univ. could have passed OSHA's muster on this problem. ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Chemical Hygiene Officer, CCHO Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University mmiller@andrew.cmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:34:46 -0500 From: Kathy Matty Subject: Re: Seminars in Florida Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_AAFD4BF3.52335F6C" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. Jim, No, I was not able to make any of the Florida Seminars recently. It's been hectic here with the construction and moving of our chemistry labs to our new science lab building. We are now in the process of renovating our old science building. (We have to move out of the building for 8 months.) I will watch the schedule for any seminars in my area. I have already attended 2 of your workshops. If you are looking for a location to conduct a seminar next Spring, please consider Seminole Community College in Sanford, FL (north of Orlando). When our renovation is complete (January 2000) we would be happy to utilize our new classroom and lab facilities. Kathy Kathleen Matty Physical Science Lab Manager Seminole Community College 100 Weldon Boulevard Sanford, Fl 32771 Phone: (407) 328-2257 Fax: (407) 328-2238 >>> 03/01/99 07:34AM >>> Hi Kathy, Did you make one of the recent seminars we offered in florida? The State Department of Ed wants us to do 12 more next fall. Keep an eye on our schedule at the web site ... www.labsafety.org regards, ... jim BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:Kathy Matty ORG:;Science EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:MattyK@mail.seminole.cc.fl.us N:Matty;Kathy X-GWUSERID:MattyK END:VCARD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:10:08 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Regulator consistency/competency In-Reply-To: <6360B2C0C2B6D111827000AA00DD928EE283CA@mailhorse.uwyo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 OSHA by no means has a monopoply on this. Any time you're relying on an inspector to make an interpretation of a standard, the inspector makes the law (a common analogy is a cop deciding at what speed he'll actually pull someone over). We were trying to work with the FAA on some helicopter standards for our system: the local inspector told us that he didn't really care what FAA HQ said - he was the local inspector and his signature would be on the report. The dunce of an inspector at Wyoming may have been incompetent, but it seems that consistency is an even bigger hurdle. JNR Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:58:50 +1300 From: John Downey Subject: Re: flash points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Ilse I suspect that NOBODY has done one. As I suggested in my original posting, this would be a good little project for a reasonably competent student with a Pensky-Marten unit, as most flashpoints are reported as closed-cup. Better still, get them to calculate the equation of the curves for each common alcohol and see if there is a pattern emerging. If they did it, they could publish the results, and you and I and a few others would be eternally grateful, wouldn't we. Regards John Downey Hazardous Substances Officer Waitakere City Council Waitakere City New Zealand Phone +64 9 8368036 Fax +64 9 8368001 > -----Original Message----- > From: Stoll, Ilse (Ilse) [SMTP:ilsestoll@LUCENT.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 2:24 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: flash points > > Thank you. Do you have a table for i-propanol or where can I find one? > > Ilse Stoll > TRB198BG > Environmental Laboratory > Lucent Technologies > 555 Union Blvd. > Allentown, PA 18103 > 610.712.5505 voice > 610.712.4400 fax > > ---------- > > From: Tony Haggerty[SMTP:techton@IHUG.CO.NZ] > > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:51 PM > > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > > Subject: Re: flash points > > > > <> > > A copy in Word 6 for those without Internet access > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:17:10 -0500 From: Mike Pirrello Subject: Re: flash points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Shoot. If someone buys me one, I'll do it at home in my garage just because I'm sick of the data not being available. After simple water/polar solvent mixtures, I'd like to see some of the common laboratory solvent mixtures done, like phenol/chloroform/isoamyl alcohol, stuff like that. Alternatively, the list function as an on-line parallel processor if everybody would be willing to pay for one solvent curve to be tested commercially. Is there really nobody out there with a student who'd jump at the chance to use this as a undergraduate research project? Michael G. Pirrello, CHMM Safety & Environmental Mgr. Trimeris, Inc. 4727 University Drive, Ste. 100 Durham, NC 27707-3485 Ph: (919) 419-6050 Fx: (919) 419-1816 Mpirrello@trimeris.com -----Original Message----- From: John Downey [SMTP:John.Downey@WAITAKERE.GOVT.NZ] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 1:59 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: flash points Ilse I suspect that NOBODY has done one. As I suggested in my original posting, this would be a good little project for a reasonably competent student with a Pensky-Marten unit, as most flashpoints are reported as closed-cup. Better still, get them to calculate the equation of the curves for each common alcohol and see if there is a pattern emerging. If they did it, they could publish the results, and you and I and a few others would be eternally grateful, wouldn't we. Regards John Downey Hazardous Substances Officer Waitakere City Council Waitakere City New Zealand Phone +64 9 8368036 Fax +64 9 8368001 > -----Original Message----- > From: Stoll, Ilse (Ilse) [SMTP:ilsestoll@LUCENT.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 2:24 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: flash points > > Thank you. Do you have a table for i-propanol or where can I find one? > > Ilse Stoll > TRB198BG > Environmental Laboratory > Lucent Technologies > 555 Union Blvd. > Allentown, PA 18103 > 610.712.5505 voice > 610.712.4400 fax > > > > ---------- > > From: Tony Haggerty[SMTP:techton@IHUG.CO.NZ] > > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:51 PM > > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > > Subject: Re: flash points > > > > <> > > A copy in Word 6 for those without Internet access > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:15:21 -0600 From: EH&S Compliance Subject: Re: Seminars in Florida Jim & Kathy, I think you are inadvertently posting to the Lab Safety list. Rebecca Levins EH&S Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 -----Original Message----- From: Kathy Matty [SMTP:MattyK@MAIL.SEMINOLE.CC.FL.US] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 12:35 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Seminars in Florida << File: Kathy Matty.vcf >> Jim, No, I was not able to make any of the Florida Seminars recently. It's been hectic here with the construction and moving of our chemistry labs to our new science lab building. We are now in the process of renovating our old science building. (We have to move out of the building for 8 months.) I will watch the schedule for any seminars in my area. I have already attended 2 of your workshops. If you are looking for a location to conduct a seminar next Spring, please consider Seminole Community College in Sanford, FL (north of Orlando). When our renovation is complete (January 2000) we would be happy to utilize our new classroom and lab facilities. Kathy Kathleen Matty Physical Science Lab Manager Seminole Community College 100 Weldon Boulevard Sanford, Fl 32771 Phone: (407) 328-2257 Fax: (407) 328-2238 >>> 03/01/99 07:34AM >>> Hi Kathy, Did you make one of the recent seminars we offered in florida? The State Department of Ed wants us to do 12 more next fall. Keep an eye on our schedule at the web site ... www.labsafety.org regards, ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:07:36 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: NACHO Membership Stats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi NACHO Members, Now you can follow the growth of our Association in the NACHO section of the LSW web site. Go to http://www.labsafety.org/archives/stats.htm to see the membership grow. Tell a friend about NACHO and see it grow faster! ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:53:30 -0600 Reply-To: "swiki@bihs.net" From: Swiki Anderson Subject: Re: Columbia Univ. fined $77,500 by OSHA - PREVENTION BY COST EFFECTIVELY ADDRESSING THE BASIS PROBLEM? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Food for thought: The OSHA standards are written on a concentration basis, directed at certain chemicals. They dictate maximum PELs, TLVs, etc. If the concentrations in the workplace are excessive this would imply that the ventilation system is dilution rather than containment based would it not? Many lab users and lab safety people don't know the difference between these two concepts (see http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notex.htm and click on Dilution vs. containment Ventilation! Which is the Safest Method?) If a lab has a dilution ventilation system then it is not working correctly or the release rate of the toxic material is to high. Can laboratory air flow systems be converted to containment systems at a reasonable cost? Could this possibly be done and produce a savings and with significant safety improvement? What does it take ? (see http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notex.htm and click on Fume Hoods and Laboratory Air Flow Systems: Lessons, Features, and Improvements, from the Old Saints of the Atomic Energy Era through Today, CSHEMA Paper Food For thought. Swiki Anderson, Ph.D., P.E., From: James Hermann [SMTP:jhermann@VALSPAR.COM] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 12:29 PM How many universities "... willfully violated the laboratory standard by failing to carry out the provisions of a written chemical hygiene plan." After all, we get to write our own CHP. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:58:23 -0500 From: "L. James Stock III" <34EMQ6K@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Subject: Re: chloro tri- base Mime-Version: 1.0 First, my thanks to: Michael G. Hottott, Department of Chemistry, University of Puget Sound for the 1-800 telephone number to BASF. It seems my Chloro tri base was last munufactured in Germany back in 1991 and all they had was a cas#. I inserted my trusty Aldrich MSDS CD-ROM and boom: Chloro tri base is: 5-Chloro-2-methylene-1,3,3-trimethylindoline! Cool!!!!!! Thanks to all in this group for your interest and help. Jamie Stock ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:21:35 -0600 Reply-To: "swiki@bihs.net" From: Swiki Anderson Subject: Re: Columbia U. citation--what were the lab activities involved? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rather than trying to help Columbia shirt the issue, why not own up to the fact that a containment ventilation problems exist and address and fix the problem? If the OSHA regs dictate a maximum concentration of a material in the laboratory work place (not within the hoods) then the laboratory air flow control system is not doing its job or someone is liberating way to much material in the work place. Either one has no ventilation system or a dilution rather than a containment ventilation laboratory air flow control system. If it is a dilution system, then more air flow is needed to adhere to the "solution to pollution is dilution" as a basis of design and operation. If it is a containment ventilation system, then it must not be working correctly. Engineered solutions that can convert dilutions laboratory air flow control system to containment ventilation systems are available can most often produce a savings for the owner who to find objectively address the problems. If you want to know more, call me at 409.779.6068, x11 or go to our webpage at http://www.saai-svc.com/html/tech-notes.htm. I will gladly share with you what we have learned from testing, design, and trouble shooting regarding laboratory air flow control systems. Swiki Anderson, Ph.D. P.E. -----Original Message----- From: Sonja G. Ringen [SMTP:Ringen@UWYO.EDU] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 11:59 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Columbia U. citation--what were the lab activities involved? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:08:19 +1100 From: Barry Searle Subject: Re: M E K Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could you please advise me of the source/manufacturer of MEKP? Does anyone have any User safety instructions when using this orgainc liquid? Thankyou Barry EM UNIT UNSW -----Original Message----- From: EH&S Compliance To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Tuesday, 2 March 1999 4:39 Subject: Re: M E K Question >I agree. >I checked a MSDS on the material and there is no mention of peroxides >formed. It is flammable (flash point open cup 30F (-1.1C) and flash point >closed cup 20F (-6.7C)). The vapors are heavier than air and can travel >back a considerable distance to a source of ignition and flash back. > >PEL 200ppm >TLV 300ppm >IDLH 3000ppm > >NFPA 1 3 0 >HMIS 2 3 0 x > >Rebecca Levins >EH&S Compliance Specialist >RSR Corporation >Dallas, Texas > >RSRrdl@onramp.net >(214) 583-0245 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Tony Haggerty [SMTP:techton@IHUG.CO.NZ] >Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:10 PM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject:Re: M E K Question > >Mark >No one seems to have ventured an answer to your query so I'll put my 2 >cents >in and say that I do not believe that MEK spontaneously forms Peroxides. >There is of course a Peroxide, MEKP, commonly used as a resin catalyst but >this is manufactured. >Tony H ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:55:19 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Re: C Un.....-Re: PREVENTION BY COST EFFECTIVELY ADDRESSING TH E BASIS PROBLEM? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" * Many lab users and lab safety people don't know the difference * between these two concepts (see http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer * /html/tech-notex.htm and click on Dilution vs. containment Ventilation! Where are all of these incompetent lab safety people?? Why "trash" them so HERE? Haven't met a one of them yet that didn't know the difference between dilution and local exhaust ventilation. If they know there's a lab std. they must know of the need for local exhaust devices and know or quickly learn when they should be used. I would posit that if they've been proactive enough to subscribe to this listserver, they have probably also learned at least the basics. * If a lab has a dilution ventilation system then it is not working * correctly or the release rate of the toxic material is to high. ???? - I am guessing what is meant is that one should not count on dilution ventilation as your only means of protection from those materials which should be used in a hood. However, adequate dilution ventilation is very important for a lab! We require 10 Air Changes/Hr minimum (yes I know ACH is a rather outmoded measure, but it's easy to verify). Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:45:38 -0700 From: Katrina Doolittle Subject: Respiratory Protection during Bulk Waste Processing in Outdoor Facility Mime-Version: 1.0 We are a university which qualifies as a large quantity generator for hazardous waste. Our office manages all hazardous waste generated. We are in the process of upgrading our current respiratory protection from SCBA to supplied air respirators for waste processing activities. We would like your input regarding respiratory protection for the scenarios depicted below. The hazardous waste processing facility is located outdoors at the end of the storage building. The area is open to the outside on three sides. The ceiling is approximately 12 feet high and the width is about 20 feet. The processing area is about 20 x 20 feet square with chain link fence surrounding the area. A series of gates control access and are open during processing procedures. The processing consists primarily of bulking compatible chemicals for shipment to a hazardous waste disposal facility. There is a potential for an explosion or reaction due to improperly labeled waste containers by third party researchers. Our current process utilizes SCBAs for respiratory protection during processing. Due to the air tank capacity limitations (about 20 minutes) a supplied air system is being considered to enable more efficient processing. Typically there are three personnel involved, two are processing while the third usually is rinsing empty containers. The third party is usually not in the processing area.. WORST CASE SCENARIOS: There is limited possibility of an IDLH atmosphere during the bulking process. For example, two common laboratory chemical wastes (benzene and acetonitrile) have IDLH of 500 ppm. During the pouring of such chemicals, it is possible that 500 ppm will be present in the atmosphere for a limited time while pouring. During an unexpected violent reaction (which could occur due to a improperly labeled waste container), the airline could be ruptured or cut, an employee could be knocked down, rendered unconscious or disabled (broken appendage). The question: Is the 5 minute air pack a requirement to our personnel who will be processing waste utilizing supplied air resirators in the outdoor processing facility? Or will the outdoor atmosphere provide adequate ventilation to avoid the need to wear the 5 minute escape pack? We entertain any and all input on this issue and we thank you in advance. Graham Munsell, Industrial Hygienist Katrina Doolittle, Director for Safety ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:12:14 -0500 From: Madelyn Miller Subject: M E K Question In-Reply-To: <00c501be6427$a26b5d80$1c965e81@barry-searle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Greetings, MEK peroxide is a completely separate chemical used in the polymeriazaton of fiberglass. It is reactive. Madelyn > Could you please advise me of the source/manufacturer of MEKP? > > Does anyone have any User safety instructions when using this orgainc > liquid? > ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Chemical Hygiene Officer, CCHO Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University mmiller@andrew.cmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:31:55 +1300 From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: M E K Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The attached was taken from a UK database that I use. Interox are in New Zealand and I suspect in the US. Regards Tony PEROXID-CHEMIE LTD (FORMERLY: LAPORTE/INTEROX) SEAL SANDS 01642 546666 GENERAL ENQUIRIES 01642 546224 ****** End of Document ****** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:36:33 +1300 From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: flash points - iso Propanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The original request asked the same question but no one came up with anything :-( Tony ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:07:52 +1100 Reply-To: ternai@techinfo.com.au From: "Prof. B. Ternai" Subject: Re: flash points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a book by the Enjay Chemical Company, "Isopropyl Alcohol", which lists and provides a graph, of mixtures of isopropanol with water. It is also an excellent source of information about this compound. If you need info in detail, please e-mail me off the list. B. Ternai "Stoll, Ilse (Ilse)" wrote: > Thank you. Do you have a table for i-propanol or where can I find one? > > Ilse Stoll > TRB198BG > Environmental Laboratory > Lucent Technologies > 555 Union Blvd. > Allentown, PA 18103 > 610.712.5505 voice > 610.712.4400 fax > > > ---------- > > From: Tony Haggerty[SMTP:techton@IHUG.CO.NZ] > > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:51 PM > > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > > Subject: Re: flash points > > > > <> > > A copy in Word 6 for those without Internet access > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:04:36 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Problems of Regulatory Agencies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-01 13:00:58 EST, you write: << It gets old having to train state regulators on their own regulations. Has anybody else had incompetent regulators come through? And at what point does this kind of scenario end? Are they going to cite us just because they have to justify their trip to Laramie? Do most of you have qualified inspectors? >> Hi NACHOs, The sad reality is that the lab standard came along and the regulatory folks had little or no idea what to do about it. One OSHA region asked me to train their 120 folks by giving five one-day training seminars. They had no money to train them and no money for them to all travel to one location so it could be done all on one day. With hindsight I regret not just simply doing it. Five or six years later, I volunteered to do the training for free. I was told that it would be inappropriate for them to accept this offer! We live in a very strange world. .... jim PS. LSW did provide a free one-day lab safety seminar last year for all the interested state and federal agencies in Massachusetts. It was hosted by the MA Department of Labor and Workplace Safety. These are great folks working very hard to help create safer workplaces with very limited resources. Sadly, a similar offer for that area of NY which I mentioned previously seems to have fallen on deaf ears. It's been a month with no response. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:12:12 +0300 From: ERL_WS1 Subject: delete my address from list Please delete my address from your mailing list until further request. Thanks. Ahmed H. Fayoumi fayoumi@kfupm.edu.sa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:07:36 -0500 From: "Barbara J. Weaver" Subject: Re: NACHO Membership Stats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain What is a concealed member? > -----Original Message----- > From: Labsafe@AOL.COM [SMTP:Labsafe@AOL.COM] > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 8:08 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: NACHO Membership Stats > > Hi NACHO Members, > > Now you can follow the growth of our Association in the NACHO section of > the LSW web site. Go to http://www.labsafety.org/archives/stats.htm to see > the membership grow. Tell a friend about NACHO and see it grow faster! ... > jim > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:53:39 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Subject: More info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good Morning! http://www.safetyinfo.com/news/news.htm Have really enjoyed (lurking) listening to all the exchange of info. This is just to let you know we have posted more free safety info on our site for you. Weekly Safety Poster, Weekly Safety Brief, On-line Confined Space Training Module, 3 New Audit Guides, 2 New Safety Forms, etc. Click on the above link to see all that we have added this week. Regards & Best Wishes Marc Neuffer Safety Info.Com safety1@localaccess.net (256)840-9530 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:54:35 -0500 From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: NACHO Membership Stats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We could tell you, but we'd have to kill you. ;<)) -----Original Message----- From: Barbara J. Weaver To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 9:19 Subject: Re: NACHO Membership Stats >What is a concealed member? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Labsafe@AOL.COM [SMTP:Labsafe@AOL.COM] >> Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 8:08 AM >> To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >> Subject: NACHO Membership Stats >> >> Hi NACHO Members, >> >> Now you can follow the growth of our Association in the NACHO section of >> the >> LSW web site. Go to http://www.labsafety.org/archives/stats.htm to see >> the >> membership grow. Tell a friend about NACHO and see it grow faster! ... >> jim >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:57:18 -0400 From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: Respiratory Protection during Bulk Waste Processing in Outdoor Facility Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We are >in the process of upgrading our current respiratory protection from SCBA to >supplied air respirators for waste processing activities. >The question: Is the 5 minute air pack a requirement to our personnel who >will be processing waste utilizing supplied air resirators in the outdoor >processing facility? I'm making a similar decision at present. Having worn 5 minute escape packs on airline respirators in my Superfund days, the matter is not trivial, and I would not default to the highest level of protection just to be on the safe side. The inclusion of the escape bottle is a significant ergonomic compromise in the switch from SCBAs to airlines in this fairly labor intensive activity. In the scenario you describe, my opinion is that the 5 minute escape pack is not necessary, providing the layout of fencing and gates does not interfere unduly with beating a hasty retreat. (I generally see the 5 minute bottle as essential in confined space entries and in large processing buildings where escape is a significant issue.) In the time it takes to activate the 5 minute bottle, one could walk the few yards it would take to escape the >500 ppm levels predicted in the pouring area in an outdoor setting. In the worst case scenario involving unconsciousness, the 5 minute bottle does not activate automatically - the valve must be opened by hand. Airline hoses are rather substantial, and if you were to have a reaction sufficient to severe the hose, respiratory protection may be the least of your problems. A couple of points I would include in the changeover from SCBA's: - Emphasize the need to leave the area immediately when there is any doubt about the performance of the respirator. - If you will be using bottled air, be sure to include a pressure-activated "5 minutes left" alarm with your regulator (frequently a clanging bell or whistle), and locate the alarm close enough to the work area that it can be heard by all. - Use disposable hose covers to protect the airlines in use. These plastic sleeves fit loosely over the hoses and help prevent deterioration from chemical exposure and abrasion. I'd be curious to hear opinions on the body protection needed in this scenario. I typically use a plastic-coated, sealed seam disposable coverall for splash protection, but sometimes think a flame resistant lab coat or coverall such as nomex(r), and cloth head/neck cover of the sort firefighters wear would be a better choice when handling flammables, especially when you have reason to worry about reactivity among containers. Day to day, the splash issue seems to be the more pressing concern, but the fire worry is the big ticket item. Whaddya think? Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:09:54 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Subject: More Info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Marc Neuffer Good Morning! http://www.safetyinfo.com/news/news.htm Have really enjoyed (lurking) listening to all the exchange of info. This is just to let you know we have posted more free safety info on our site for you. Weekly Safety Poster, Weekly Safety Brief, On-line Confined Space Training Module, 3 New Audit Guides, 2 New Safety Forms, etc. Click on the above link to see all that we have added this week. Regards & Best Wishes Marc Neuffer Safety Info.Com safety1@localaccess.net (256)840-9530 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:12:01 -0500 From: "Dr. Linda A. Swihart" Subject: Concealed member In-Reply-To: <0D907816B00AD211A93300A0C9B3BBE6274168@xdelta.lancasterlab s.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 At 09:07 AM 3/2/99 -0500, Barbara J. Weaver wrote: >What is a concealed member? > You may conceal your name and email address so that any list member requesting a "review" from the list server cannot learn your name or address. Any list member can send a REVIEW command to the server and receive a list of all the non-concealed names and email addresses. This is true for any listserv, I believe. It is not pleasant to think that anyone would join our list in order to "harvest" our email addresses and sell them to spammers or use them for spam themselves, but it probably does happen with lists from time to time. I have received unsolicited email from someone that I think might have got my address from this list. When I asked them where they got my address they said, "oh I'm not really sure, probably from a conference or somewhere..." It was profession-related spam, and I may very well have been interested in it, but I wasn't and they were polite and dropped me from their list when I asked. There are details at the LSW web site, under the NACHO section, which tell a lot more about listserv commands. The important thing to remember is DO NOT SEND listserv commands to this address (labsafety-L@siu.edu), which we use to send messages to each other. Listserv commands have to go to a different address, which is LISTSERV@siu.edu, and the computer we call the listserver acts on them in an automated fashion.... Regards, Linda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:25:16 -0500 From: "Dr. Linda A. Swihart" Subject: formoterol fumarate In-Reply-To: <435ACBA4E161D1118AC7006008A057A02B3B31@ehs-nts1.ehs.ufl.ed u> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I find this quite fascinating, and I have questions: Got email today from a Dr. Z at what appears to be a pharmaceutical company in Switzerland. He wishes to have an MSDS for formoterol fumarate dihydrate and supposes we have one at Purdue since our web site refers to the substance. (It's on a webpage list of materials labeled at teratogens by Sax 7th ed.) 'If you could fax it to me today that would be ideal,' or some such (not perfect quote). I went a-searching, because it was more interesting than my regularly scheduled drudgery, and found rather little at first. It's in Chemfinder, CAS # 43229-80-7 and very little else. It is sold by Korean and Indian herbalists and pharmacies as antitussive, bronchiodilator, probably many more... http://www.ahn-gook.com/index-10.html http://www.cipla.com/prod1.html There was some roadkill that suggested that it had been approved in Canada. (By roadkill, I mean the Alta Vista search engine has the URL indexed but the link is dead. The teaser said "New Drug News. The following table outlines drugs that have received Notice of Compliance in Canada since January 1996. These drugs have received approval. URL: uni3sys.unipharm.com/InPHARMation/vol2-no5/newdrugs.html Last modified 10-Jul-97" Then I found a very interesting Nov 1998 SkyePharma press release (Britain) about a 6 million pound investment and collaboration: SkyePharma PLC (LSE:"SKP"/Nasdaq:"SKYEY") andNovartis Pharma (Zürich: "NOV") announced today that they have signed a collaborative agreement to jointly develop a new formulation of Foradil(r), the long acting beta-agonist for the treatment of asthma. The new product will utilise SkyePharma's patented multi-dose dry powder inhaler device (MDPI)..... Under the terms of the collaboration, Novartis will also make an equity investment in SkyePharma of £6 million ($10.1 million) at 70p per SkyePharma share being the average middle market price.... "SkyePharma has granted Novartis an exclusive world-wide license to market Foradil(r) in its novel delivery form. Foradil(r) (formoterol fumarate) is a long-acting bronchodilator used in the treatment of chronic asthma. It is currently marketed in 50 countries. Sales of Foradil(r) for the first 9 months of 1998 grew by 29%...." That's where I quit and wrote Dr Z saying I had no MSDS, sorry, but would be interested in getting a copy from him if he obtains one. Does anyone in NACHO land know anything about formoterol fumarate? Anybody have an MSDS? Is it still listed as a teratogen in the new Sax? Has it been approved in Canada? (And do you think I should buy SKYEY and or NOV? :-) Linda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:41:14 -0500 From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay folks, Just wanted to let you know about the phone call I just received from a physician here. She stated that she is seeing a patient who is pregnant and having difficulty in keeping food down. They are going to put her on a nasal/gastric tube with a pump and feedbags. She wanted to know if it was okay for her to wear it and eat in the lab. Can anyone come up with an excuse why she shouldn't be eating in the lab? The bags are prepared in the pharmacy so there is no opening and loading in the lab. Better yet would our friends at OSHA consider this "willful disregard of the chemical hygiene plan?" I think it gives new meaning to the term "strapping the feed bag on." Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:40:25 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain What is the possibility of materials crossing the bag/air interface? Thanks! Helen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:53:46 -0500 From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't want to reopen an old thread, but in our shop we find non-laboratory work for expectant mothers. I think, if you allow other pregnant females, you have to let her, if, as you say, the feeding mechanism is sealed away from lab chemicals. Why not? Bob -----Original Message----- From: Nick Pinizzotto To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 12:44 Subject: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. >Okay folks, > >Just wanted to let you know about the phone call I just received from a >physician here. > >She stated that she is seeing a patient who is pregnant and having difficulty >in keeping food down. They are going to put her on a nasal/gastric tube with a >pump and feedbags. She wanted to know if it was okay for her to wear it and >eat in the lab. > >Can anyone come up with an excuse why she shouldn't be eating in the lab? >The bags are prepared in the pharmacy so there is no opening and loading in >the lab. Better yet would our friends at OSHA consider this "willful disregard >of the chemical hygiene plan?" > >I think it gives new meaning to the term "strapping the feed bag on." > >Nick Pinizzotto >Environmental Health Officer >Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >Thomas Jefferson University >nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:10:53 -0600 From: Beth Brubaker Subject: Re: flash points Mime-Version: 1.0 I plan to propose flash point testing of mixtures as an undergraduate research project. We'll start with simple alcohol/water mixtures and move up to other solvent mixtures. Our main hurdle will be purchasing the test equipment. If this goes through, I'll post data as it's compiled. Beth Brubaker Lab/Safety/Waste Coordinator Murray State University Department of Chemistry (502) 762-6390 beth.brubaker@murraystate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:49:47 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Re: Respiratory Protection during Bulk Waste Processing in Outdoor Facility In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There aren't many satisfactory options out there that combine chemical protection with flame/heat protection. Shielded or coated chemical protective clothing MAY over brief flash protection, but if it's more than that, most "bunny suits" become shrink-wrap. Even if you wear Nomex or PBI material over the suit, you're still looking at material that can melt to your skin if you're caught in a hot-spot. Most fire depts. haven't comfortably resolved this issue, either. As Don pointed out - assess relative hazard severity. Anyone out there have different experience or know of some newer products that actually work? JNR >I'd be curious to hear opinions on the body protection needed in this >scenario. I typically use a plastic-coated, sealed seam disposable >coverall for splash protection, but sometimes think a flame resistant lab >coat or coverall such as nomex(r), and cloth head/neck cover of the sort >firefighters wear would be a better choice when handling flammables, >especially when you have reason to worry about reactivity among containers. >Day to day, the splash issue seems to be the more pressing concern, but >the fire worry is the big ticket item. Whaddya think? Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:55:16 -0700 From: Sharyn Bake Subject: Re: Respiratory Protection during Bulk Waste Processing in Outdoo r Facility MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There are, as Dr. Rubin has pointed out, excellent flame retardant and even flame resistant fabrics. I know from experience as a firefighter/hazMat trainer. The real issue here however, is that one should be preventing the development of an atmosphere and circumstances where a flash fire occurs. This can be accomplished through proper work practices, good ventilation, using appropriate pouring techniques and equipment , bonding etc. I personally would recommend nomex suits for persons who are routinely doing such work and pour large amounts of flammable solvents as a precaution. The suits can cost as little as $100 each. While this is not cheap, it is cheap if it helps prevent severe burns from a flash fire event. The other part of the equation is proper training and constant vigilance to prevent an accident. Just my two cents worth........ Sharyn Baker Instructor Health and Safety Division University of Colorado Health Sciences Center Denver, Colorado email: sharyn.baker@uchsc.edu > ---------- > From: Jeff Rubin > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Tuesday, March 2, 1999 12:49 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: Respiratory Protection during Bulk Waste Processing in > Outdoor Facility > > There aren't many satisfactory options out there that combine chemical > protection with flame/heat protection. Shielded or coated chemical > protective clothing MAY over brief flash protection, but if it's more than > that, most "bunny suits" become shrink-wrap. Even if you wear Nomex or > PBI > material over the suit, you're still looking at material that can melt to > your skin if you're caught in a hot-spot. Most fire depts. haven't > comfortably resolved this issue, either. > > As Don pointed out - assess relative hazard severity. Anyone out there > have different experience or know of some newer products that actually > work? > > JNR > > >I'd be curious to hear opinions on the body protection needed in this > >scenario. I typically use a plastic-coated, sealed seam disposable > >coverall for splash protection, but sometimes think a flame resistant lab > >coat or coverall such as nomex(r), and cloth head/neck cover of the sort > >firefighters wear would be a better choice when handling flammables, > >especially when you have reason to worry about reactivity among > containers. > >Day to day, the splash issue seems to be the more pressing concern, but > >the fire worry is the big ticket item. Whaddya think? > Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS > College of Natural Sciences G2500 > W.C. Hogg Building > University of Texas at Austin > Austin, TX 78712-1199 > (512) 471-6176 (O) > (512) 471-4998 (F) > jrubin@mail.utexas.edu > http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:42:19 +1300 From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: Respiratory Protection during Bulk Waste Processing in Outdoor Facility MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a material which consists of transfer coated Polyurethane on a cotton base which is splash resistant and fire retardant. The secret s to have a very thin layer of PU which is hard to control. It was used as over trouser material by some Fire Services. The European Space Agency investigated this material and found that when the construction was right it worked well but if the PU layer got too thick then the fire retardancy dropped. Fire Departments generally take the approach of controlling the atmosphere and or ignition sources and selecting protective clothing accordingly. Some British brigades had a policy of wearing a total encapsulating splash suit over fire fighting gear and SCBA set. Rumour has it they wore a blue top and red tights under this *grin* The long term answer is definitely that these operations should only be carried out in controlled areas with adequate ventilation and no sources of ignition. Nomex coveralls or even cotton will give some protection. Tony Haz Subs Adviser NZFS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:53:41 -0600 From: Katie Crysup Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. In-Reply-To: <006e01be64d5$9fca4ec0$0100007f@BBURNS> Mime-Version: 1.0 At 12:53 PM 3/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >I don't want to reopen an old thread, but in our shop we find non-laboratory >work for expectant mothers. We do the same in our labs for expectant mothers.> >I think, if you allow other pregnant females, you have to let her, if, as >you say, the feeding mechanism is sealed away from lab chemicals. Why not? > Is she hooked up to the feeding mechansim at all times, like an IV? Or can she not "eat" during lab? I think it is just easier and less concern for all involved if she is allowed to have a non-laboratory option in order to get her grade. What about her health and safety issues? What training have the TA's had in handling a situation with her should something happen to her during lab? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Nick Pinizzotto >To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu >Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 12:44 >Subject: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. >>Okay folks, >> >>Just wanted to let you know about the phone call I just received from a >>physician here. >> >>She stated that she is seeing a patient who is pregnant and having >difficulty >>in keeping food down. They are going to put her on a nasal/gastric tube >with a >>pump and feedbags. She wanted to know if it was okay for her to wear it and >>eat in the lab. >> >>Can anyone come up with an excuse why she shouldn't be eating in the lab? >>The bags are prepared in the pharmacy so there is no opening and loading in >>the lab. Better yet would our friends at OSHA consider this "willful >disregard >>of the chemical hygiene plan?" >> >>I think it gives new meaning to the term "strapping the feed bag on." >> >>Nick Pinizzotto >>Environmental Health Officer >>Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >>Thomas Jefferson University >>nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >>215-503-5853 >> >> Katie Crysup Chemistry Laboratory Coordinator Texas A&M University -- Corpus Christi 6300 Ocean Drive, CS 130 Corpus Christi, Tx 78412 512-994-5701 (O) 512-994-2742 (F) kcrysup@falcon.tamucc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:02:00 -0500 From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Okay, perhaps I'm a little confused here. Is this a person "consuming" at a lab where they work? Is this a patient being treated in a "lab" setting? Is this a student? An employee? None of the above? Help? Tammy Tayman ---------- From: Nick Pinizzotto To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 12:41PM Okay folks, Just wanted to let you know about the phone call I just received from a physician here. She stated that she is seeing a patient who is pregnant and having difficulty in keeping food down. They are going to put her on a nasal/gastric tube with a pump and feedbags. She wanted to know if it was okay for her to wear it and eat in the lab. Can anyone come up with an excuse why she shouldn't be eating in the lab? The bags are prepared in the pharmacy so there is no opening and loading in the lab. Better yet would our friends at OSHA consider this "willful disregard of the chemical hygiene plan?" I think it gives new meaning to the term "strapping the feed bag on." Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:04:26 -0500 From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Comments: To: ttayman@MC.CC.MD.US In-Reply-To: <199903022109.PAA110284@saluki-mailsmtp.siu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For clarification: The patient is an employee (not a Student) here in a research lab. The physician is a doctor here at Jefferson. The physician is treating the patient in a method to eliminate her nausea due to pregnancy. I have been assured that the system is a closed system and there is no opportunity for inadvertent exposure. I must admit that I was kinda surprised by the responses. Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however if we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), is the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have sued employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to have an increased risk for adverse exposures. Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and engineering controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:04:54 +1300 From: John Downey Subject: Re: flash points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hooray. Anybody feel like chipping in to help buy a Pensky-Marten? Seriously, Beth, why not try approaching some local industries, preferably large ones, and see if you can get some contributions towards the cost, as part of their annual grants to public good. The spinoff for them is that their company logo is plastered all over the equipment and they get to use valuable info that isn't around at present. You may be pleasantly surprised. Does your faculty have a policy on soliciting from outside agencies? John Downey Hazardous Substances Officer Waitakere City Council > -----Original Message----- > From: Beth Brubaker [SMTP:beth.brubaker@MURRAYSTATE.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 7:11 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: flash points > > I plan to propose flash point testing of mixtures as an undergraduate > research project. We'll start with simple alcohol/water mixtures and move > up to other solvent mixtures. Our main hurdle will be purchasing the test > equipment. If this goes through, I'll post data as it's compiled. > > Beth Brubaker > Lab/Safety/Waste Coordinator > Murray State University Department of Chemistry > (502) 762-6390 > beth.brubaker@murraystate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:16:00 -0500 From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Comments: To: Nick Pinizzotto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Just remember: You're liability continues until the child reaches age of majority plus a year or two (depending on the state). The woman and the employer cannot negate the rights of the unborn child. If you knowingly allow a pregnant woman to have even the remotest chance at exposure to a known teratogen, carcinogen, mutagen, etc, do you really think a jury is gonna go in *your* favor?!? What would the *prudent* person do? I know what I would do! Tammy Tayman ---------- From: Nick Pinizzotto To: ttayman@MC.CC.MD.US Cc: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:04PM For clarification: The patient is an employee (not a Student) here in a research lab. The physician is a doctor here at Jefferson. The physician is treating the patient in a method to eliminate her nausea due to pregnancy. I have been assured that the system is a closed system and there is no opportunity for inadvertent exposure. I must admit that I was kinda surprised by the responses. Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however if we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), is the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have sued employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to have an increased risk for adverse exposures. Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and engineering controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:20:37 -0600 From: Harry Elston Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 At 12:41 PM 3/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >Okay folks, > >Just wanted to let you know about the phone call I just received from a >physician here. > >She stated that she is seeing a patient who is pregnant and having difficulty >in keeping food down. They are going to put her on a nasal/gastric tube with a >pump and feedbags. She wanted to know if it was okay for her to wear it and >eat in the lab. > >Can anyone come up with an excuse why she shouldn't be eating in the lab? >The bags are prepared in the pharmacy so there is no opening and loading in >the lab. Better yet would our friends at OSHA consider this "willful disregard >of the chemical hygiene plan?" > >I think it gives new meaning to the term "strapping the feed bag on." If this is in an academic setting, why not letting her comp out of the lab portion or reduce the credit value for the course so she doesn't even have to be in the lab? Being pregnant and unable to eat is bad enough, but if she's exposed to something and there's problems with the pregnancy, you can bet that there will be hell to pay later on. If it's industrial, maybe consider changing the CHP to add a "declared pregnancy" option to avoid risk of exposure to unborn children. I remember when I was an undergraduate at Hillsdale College. There was a 11 year old prodigy in our chemistry class and the professor simply said, "not in my laboratory." He was given comparable work to perform outside the laboratory and the course credit was reduced from 4 to 3 to make up for it. None of the other students really cared. For all of the ADA people out there, I do not believe that "pregnancy" is defined as a "disability" under ADA, but I may be mistaken. Personally, I'd recommend for you to find something else for her to do. I think that keeping her out of the lab for the reason of protecting her unborn child is of higher value than reducing your liability from an ADA problem or OSHA audit. Sometimes you just have to take the moral high ground on thiese issues, and in my opinion, the morally right thing to do is protect the mom and her child. This may be a situation that whatever you do, it will be wrong. Just choose the best option. Harry Harry J. Elston, NRCC-CHO Chemical Hygiene Officer Illinois Department of Nuclear Safety My opinions only, not my employer's, blah, blah,blah "Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she has to walk into mine" -Rick, Casablanca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: Bob Burns From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, Nick, these are all good issues, and you are right about exposing no-one. However, zero exposure is a dream, IMHO. WE (industrial R&D) find other work for expectant mothers. IN my view, the fetus is much more sensitive to exposure than is an adult, and that is why I advocate removal. However, I will admit if someone challanges us we would probably have to let them work in lab. But why would they? They get their usual pay to do literature searches and the like. It is professional work. We had a thread on this a while ago, and I believe the majority agreed with your opinion. Then there is another whole can of worms with students, which is really not my issue, but I do see the problem. Hope this helps. Like so many issues we discuss, we can all express opinions, but y0u still have to make a judgement about what is the prope thig for YOU to do. That's why they pay us the big bucks! Bob "EVERYTHING IS EASY FOR THE PERSON WHO DOESN'T HAVE TO DO IT." Robert L. Burns R&D Group Leader Speciality Chemicals Division RUETGERS Organics Corp. 201 Struble Road State College, PA phone 814 231 9214 fax 814 238 1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com >Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove >pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however >if we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), >is the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have >sued employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to >have anincreased risk for adverse exposures. > >Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and engineering >controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. > > Nick Pinizzotto >Environmental Health Officer >Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >Thomas Jefferson University >nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:21:48 -0800 From: Gillian Gardner Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Personally, I've gone through two pregnancies while maintaining my work in laboratories. That said, I was careful to take proper precautions. For example, always working in a fume hood when using halogenated solvents, no matter how small the quantity and always wearing gloves. Also, I delegated filling the hazardous waste drum to someone who wasn't pregnant. Basically, I educated myself as to the hazardous and did not perform work that would present a danger to myself or my child. Both my employers for the two pregnancies were happy with that compromise as was I. I have advised students in organic chemistry lab who are pregnant to consider not taking the laboratory due to the fumes that arise in an organic lab full of students. The two times this has occurred, the student has opted to wait and take organic chemistry lab after her pregnancy. I would think if the feeding system is closed, then it should not be an additional hazard and only the "normal" hazards of working in a laboratory while pregnant need to be considered. While we prohibit eating in the laboratory, this doesn't seem to be eating per se in that the food is not out in the open and going from hand to mouth. Just my opinion. Gillian Gardner On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Nick Pinizzotto wrote: > For clarification: > > The patient is an employee (not a Student) here in a research lab. The > physician is a doctor here at Jefferson. The physician is treating the patient > in a method to eliminate her nausea due to pregnancy. I have been assured that > the system is a closed system and there is no opportunity for inadvertent > exposure. > > I must admit that I was kinda surprised by the responses. > > Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove > pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however if > we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), is > the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have sued > employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to have an > increased risk for adverse exposures. > > Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and engineering > controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. > > Nick Pinizzotto > Environmental Health Officer > Dept. Environmental Health & Safety > Thomas Jefferson University > nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu > 215-503-5853 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:21:00 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Could taking an organic lab during early pregnancy (months 2-6) lead to problems in development of amniotic bands or something similar? Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Gillian Gardner [SMTP:gardner@LCLARK.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:22 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Personally, I've gone through two pregnancies while maintaining my work in laboratories. That said, I was careful to take proper precautions. For example, always working in a fume hood when using halogenated solvents, no matter how small the quantity and always wearing gloves. Also, I delegated filling the hazardous waste drum to someone who wasn't pregnant. Basically, I educated myself as to the hazardous and did not perform work that would present a danger to myself or my child. Both my employers for the two pregnancies were happy with that compromise as was I. I have advised students in organic chemistry lab who are pregnant to consider not taking the laboratory due to the fumes that arise in an organic lab full of students. The two times this has occurred, the student has opted to wait and take organic chemistry lab after her pregnancy. I would think if the feeding system is closed, then it should not be an additional hazard and only the "normal" hazards of working in a laboratory while pregnant need to be considered. While we prohibit eating in the laboratory, this doesn't seem to be eating per se in that the food is not out in the open and going from hand to mouth. Just my opinion. Gillian Gardner On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Nick Pinizzotto wrote: > For clarification: > > The patient is an employee (not a Student) here in a research lab. The > physician is a doctor here at Jefferson. The physician is treating the patient > in a method to eliminate her nausea due to pregnancy. I have been assured that > the system is a closed system and there is no opportunity for inadvertent > exposure. > > I must admit that I was kinda surprised by the responses. > > Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove > pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however if > we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), is > the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have sued > employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to have an > increased risk for adverse exposures. > > Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and engineering > controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. > > Nick Pinizzotto > Environmental Health Officer > Dept. Environmental Health & Safety > Thomas Jefferson University > nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu > 215-503-5853 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:17:46 -0500 From: "Julie J. O'Brien" Subject: Re: flash points In-Reply-To: <99Mar3.110441nzdt.32258@breathe.waitakere.govt.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re: Industries pitching in for the cost of a Pensky-Martens flash point apparatus Another option would be to find an industry who uses one & might be interested in the data. We don't use isopropanol, unfortunately, or I would have just had the results done myself at work. It's interesting to note that it often does not take much of a low flash point chemical in a mixture to affect the flash point in a mixture with, say, water. We've had processing problems because we had by-products with <10% of a low flash point material and it caused the mixture's flash point to be low enough for the material to be classified as flammable per DOT standards. That can really drive up waste disposal costs quickly. Julie O'Brien PCR, Inc. and EXPO Children's Museum ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:34:03 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Subject: Request from Macedonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am forwarding this message we received for comment by the group... please respond to original sender at zzprogs@soros.org.mk We sent our reply, but feel that members of the group can provide better. Thanks. Regards, Marc Neuffer SafetyInfo.Com -----Original Message----- From: Milan Petkovski To: safety1@localaccess.net Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 6:53 PM My name is Milan Petkovski and I have graduated in Occupational Safety Engineer from Macedonia a small country in Europe. I am interested how my colleagues from around the world deal with certain problems, especially in the field of recognizing our profession on the scientific [professional] bases. We have a big problem here in Macedonia with this issue. Many of our colleges can not find job arrangements because the prudent jobs are fulfilled with persons with inadequate educational level. Second, I am interested in learning about the existence of any International Alliance of the Occupational Safety Engineers. Is there such an Organization in the world on International bases? Please, if you know the answer to this question reply as soon as possible. Thank You. Sincerely, Milan Petkovski ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:38:41 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard Comments: To: RNorman@BIORELIANCE.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-01 15:06:31 EST, you write: << It just seems clear to me that OSHA meant for both standards to apply. >> Randy presents a clear and reasonable argument. However, my reading of the scope, section (a), of the lab standard leaves me with the equally clear belief that there was no intention to have both standards apply. Recently, I spoke with the Director of the PESH in NY and his regulatory interpreter. Both confirmed that my interpretation was 100% correct. The presumption (which I believe is reasonable) in the lab standard is that if you develope a plan of good practice and follow it, you do not need to do that other stuff (Haz Com). ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:38:39 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Recent Grad Seeks Job Comments: To: Safety , NAOSMM@LISTSERV.RICE.EDU, hs-canada@ccohs.ca, dchas-l@SIU.EDU, biosafty@mitvma.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi NACHOs, SAFETYs, and BIOSAFETYs, I met a student, Stephen Flynn, last year at Keene State. He has recently completed his studies and is looking for.... "I've thought long an hard about a career choice and have firmly decided that laboratory safety is where I belong. I've always felt at home with labs and scientists. The unique combinations of degrees and an interest in toxicology, health and safety seems to make me rather well suited, and I know that I'd find such a position, and the associated people extremely stimulating." .... "I've graduated in December with a BS in Safety Studies to add to my former BS in Chemistry/Geololgy. I'm trying to find a "particular" job. The job that I'm looking for is an entry level or somewhat experienced (I have a couple of years of IH experience) laboratory safety specialist." Please contact Stephen directly if you have information about a position for which he might apply in the New England Area. Stephen Flynn, 42 Pine Street, Keene, NH 03431 603-352-1850 jsflynn@cheshire.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 06:51:39 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: delete my address from list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-02 09:07:20 EST, you write: << Please delete my address from your mailing list until further request. Thanks. Ahmed H. Fayoumi fayoumi@kfupm.edu.sa >> Hi Ahmed, Please use the information below to complete the SIGNOFF. ... jim Please save this message for future reference, especially if this is the first time you subscribe to an electronic mailing list. If you ever need to leave the list, you will find the necessary instructions below. Perhaps more importantly, saving a copy of this message (and of all future subscription notices from other mailing lists) in a special mail folder will give you instant access to the list of mailing lists that you are subscribed to. This may prove very useful the next time you go on vacation and need to leave the lists temporarily so as not to fill up your mailbox while you are away! You should also save the "welcome messages" from the list owners that you will occasionally receive after subscribing to a new list. To send a message to all the people currently subscribed to the list, just send mail to LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU. This is called "sending mail to the list", because you send mail to a single address and LISTSERV makes copies for all the people who have subscribed. This address (LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU) is also called the "list address". You must never try to send any command to that address, as it would be distributed to all the people who have subscribed. All commands must be sent to the "LISTSERV address", LISTSERV@SIU.EDU. It is very important to understand the difference between the two, but fortunately it is not complicated. The LISTSERV address is like a FAX number that connects you to a machine, whereas the list address is like a normal voice line connecting you to a person. If you make a mistake and dial the FAX number when you wanted to talk to someone on the phone, you will quickly realize that you used the wrong number and call again. No harm will have been done. If on the other hand you accidentally make your FAX call someone's voice line, the person receiving the call will be inconvenienced, especially if your FAX then re-dials every 5 minutes. The fact that most people will eventually connect the FAX machine to the voice line to allow the FAX to go through and make the calls stop does not mean that you should continue to send FAXes to the voice number. People would just get mad at you. It works pretty much the same way with mailing lists, with the difference that you are calling hundreds or thousands of people at the same time, and consequently you can expect a lot of people to get upset if you consistently send commands to the list address. You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF LABSAFETY-L" command to LISTSERV@SIU.EDU. You can also tell LISTSERV how you want it to confirm the receipt of messages you send to the list. If you do not trust the system, send a "SET LABSAFETY-L REPRO" command and LISTSERV will send you a copy of your own messages, so that you can see that the message was distributed and did not get damaged on the way. After a while you may find that this is getting annoying, especially if your mail program does not tell you that the message is from you when it informs you that new mail has arrived from LABSAFETY-L. If you send a "SET LABSAFETY-L ACK NOREPRO" command, LISTSERV will mail you a short acknowledgement instead, which will look different in your mailbox directory. With most mail programs you will know immediately that this is an acknowledgement you can read later. Finally, you can turn off acknowledgements completely with "SET LABSAFETY-L NOACK NOREPRO". Contributions sent to this list are automatically archived. You can get a list of the available archive files by sending an "INDEX LABSAFETY-L" command to LISTSERV@SIU.EDU. You can then order these files with a "GET LABSAFETY-L LOGxxxx" command, or using LISTSERV's database search facilities. Send an "INFO DATABASE" command for more information on the latter. This list is available in digest form. If you wish to receive the digested version of the postings, just issue a SET LABSAFETY-L DIGEST command. If you are going on vacation or will be away for business and would like to suspend email delivery, send a SET LABSAFETY-L NOMail command. To restore service, send SET LABSAFETY-L Mail. Please note that it is presently possible for other people to determine that you are signed up to the list through the use of the "REVIEW" command, which returns the e-mail address and name of all the subscribers. If you do not want your name to be visible, just issue a "SET LABSAFETY-L CONCEAL" command. More information on LISTSERV commands can be found in the LISTSERV reference card, which you can retrieve by sending an "INFO REFCARD" command to LISTSERV@SIU.EDU. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:09:39 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Concealed Members Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi NACHOs, Someone asked about "concealed members". If you look back at the list directions you received and "saved" when you joined NACHO, it says.... "Please note that it is presently possible for other people to determine that you are signed up to the list through the use of the "REVIEW" command, which returns the e-mail address and name of all the subscribers. If you do not want your name to be visible, just issue a "SET LABSAFETY-L CONCEAL" command." Regards.... Jim PS. LSW is getting ready to announce twelve one-day seminars throughout New York State in April and May. If you would like to consider hosting one of these at your place in exchange for two free registrations, please contact Tricia McGann at lswpfm@aol.com. She can fax you more details. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:49:01 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: flash points Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-02 17:11:01 EST, you write: << Hooray. Anybody feel like chipping in to help buy a Pensky-Marten? >> Hi NACHOs, How expensive are these? ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:13:31 -0500 From: Dewey Williams Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. In-Reply-To: <000e01be6502$e7844d60$4061add1@ucrpd> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed If given the option, wouldn't a woman take the non-lab work to protect herself and child? I would give here the option of doing non-lab work, at the same pay. If she refuses then get her to sign a waiver stating that there will be no repercussions due to possible exposure. As someone pointed out, however, this still makes you liable to the fetus. But it makes the mother just as responsible. The 'prudent' thing to do is to remove her and the child from any possible harm. >>Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove >>pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however >if >>we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), >is >>the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have >sued >>employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to have >an >>increased risk for adverse exposures. >> >>Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and >engineering >>controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. >> >> Nick Pinizzotto >>Environmental Health Officer >>Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >>Thomas Jefferson University >>nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >>215-503-5853 >> >> Dewey Williams - Lab Manager mailto:williams@email.uncc.edu UNC-Charlotte Chemistry Dept. http://www.chem.uncc.edu "These are my ideas and no one else will claim them." "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:46:31 -0700 From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Perhaps I have missed something concerning the application of the lab standard v. Haz Com. Am I wrong about this: When at work and in the lab doing lab work I am covered by the lab standard. But when I leave the lab (still at work) and go to a welding shop I am not covered by the lab standard but by Haz Com and welding standards. When I go from there (still at work) to a test location where threshold quantities of highly hazardous chemicals are used, I am covered by Process Safety and Haz Com, but not by the lab standard. Later in the day (still at work), when I swing by a QA lab that is part of a production process, I am not covered by the lab standard (according to the lab standard), but by Haz Com. When I am on work-sponsered travel and visiting/working in a lab not owned by my employer, I am covered by the lab standard and must abide by MY chemical hygiene plan. All depends on where you are while at work. Must be equally as complicated for universities and other interdisciplinary facilities. Comments? Ben Greene, Ph.D. AlliedSignal Las Cruces, NM > ---------- > From: Labsafe@AOL.COM[SMTP:Labsafe@AOL.COM] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 8:38 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard > > In a message dated 99-03-01 15:06:31 EST, you write: > > << It just seems clear to me that OSHA meant for both standards to > apply. >> > > Randy presents a clear and reasonable argument.... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:31:18 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Briefly, The lessons I take home from the Johnson Controls case and the ADA are that there's no prohibition of offering a non-lab assignment as long as pay, leave, etc. is preserved, BUT if the employee refuses the reassignment, then you must make any "reasonable accommodation" that can make it safe for her to do her normal duties, or modify her duties with her approval as much as necessary. Given the financial resources of most Universities, it may be very hard to prove financial hardship sufficient to release you from your responsibility to accommodate. If you want to use safety reasons for excluding her from a job she has had and desires to continue in, IMHO you'll want to be able to prove that there is no way to make it safe without posing a financial hardship (as defined in ADA) on the University. Of course if this is a student, ADA may or may not apply the same way. Can't say I've looked into the non-employee angle at all. Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland -----Original Message----- From: Dewey Williams [SMTP:williams@EMAIL.UNCC.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 8:14 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. If given the option, wouldn't a woman take the non-lab work to protect herself and child? I would give here the option of doing non-lab work, at the same pay. If she refuses then get her to sign a waiver stating that there will be no repercussions due to possible exposure. As someone pointed out, however, this still makes you liable to the fetus. But it makes the mother just as responsible. The 'prudent' thing to do is to remove her and the child from any possible harm. >>Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove >>pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however >if >>we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), >is >>the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have >sued >>employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to have >an >>increased risk for adverse exposures. >> >>Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and >engineering >>controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. >> >> Nick Pinizzotto >>Environmental Health Officer >>Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >>Thomas Jefferson University >>nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >>215-503-5853 >> >> Dewey Williams - Lab Manager mailto:williams@email.uncc.edu UNC-Charlotte Chemistry Dept. http://www.chem.uncc.edu "These are my ideas and no one else will claim them." "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:36:17 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Lab Std vs. Formaldehyde Std MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Since Jim has at least agreed I have a decent argument (of course I thought I did), I feel okay about sending it to the list now. I had simply sent it to Jim privately. For your consideration: -----Original Message----- A very interesting issue. Actually, I feel it is fairly clear that OSHA INTENDS labs to be covered by the Formaldehyde Standard. (before you delete this, please read on.) Looking at section (a)(2)(i) of the Lab Std, the question is: Does the formaldehyde standard "state otherwise"? If you look at the "Scope and application" section (a) of the Formaldehyde Std., it merely says that it applies "to all occupational exposures to formaldehyde" - the SAME wording as in other substance-specific health standards, which are very clearly intended to be superceded by the Lab Std for labs. So the answer to the operative question is clearly "NO" if the language of the standard is all you have. HOWEVER (and this is what has kept us involved with the Formaldehyde Std.) look at the "Regulatory Impact and Regulatory Flexibility Assessment" section of the preamble to the revised Formaldehyde Std. [57 FR No. 102 (May 27, 1992), pp. 22302 and 22305 especially]. Published more than 2 years AFTER the Lab Standard, one would hope that OSHA would know whether to exclude Labs or at least treat them differently in the analysis. (Yes I'm one of those poor brave souls who usually reads preambles to final rules! One day I must get a life.)* :-) In their cost analysis, OSHA very clearly and specifically assesses the impact on "Laboratories", including "histology and pathology labs". The table on p. 22305 clearly shows that they believe labs will incur costs associated with Engineering controls, Medical Removal Protection (MRP), and Training requirements. The analysis of MRP and Training costs make no indication that labs will experience any impact differently from any other affected industry. Some incremental increase in costs for Training and Engineering controls may still arguably have arisen even under the lab standard (due to the changed PELs). However MRP is not part of the picture unless the whole formaldehyde standard applies. (MRP is not Medical Surveillance, which does apply if the AL is "routinely exceeded".) However, labs aren't mentioned elsewhere in the preamble to the 1992 revision. Main discussion of applicability to labs was probably in the preamble to the initial (1987) version. Unfortunately I couldn't find the 1987 preamble. I likewise couldn't run down a copy of the preamble to the Lab Std. (shame on me if I didn't save it!). I was pretty sure that OSHA used the Formaldehyde Standard as am example of one of those which DOES apply to labs and was therefore NOT to be superceded by the Lab Std. (I believe their stated intention was that BOTH regs be applied to work with such substances.) If I didn't read it in the preamble, then the point was hammered into my brain by SOMEONE because I used the Formaldehyde Std as an example of one which we still have to comply with in my Lab Std training class from the outset. It was a clear question then and the answer I had was that both apply. Could've sworn that the guidance came straight from the preamble. IMyHO, at best one can say that OSHA failed to include wording in the revised Formaldehyde Standard to carry out their intentions. In 1992, OSHA apparently failed to realize that the 1987 version didn't state in the regulation that it applies to labs and that it would need to in the wake of the Lab Std. One would probably win the battle in court, should OSHA issue a Form. Std. citation to a lab. However, as always, strict regulatory compliance falls far short of my goal as a Health and Safety pro. It just seems clear to me that OSHA meant for both standards to apply. Of course I would just LOVE to get my hands on a definitive ruling by OSHA on the question. But even finding one, I realize that the Formaldehyde Standard establishes a "standard of care" which I must uphold as long as I haven't very good reason to explain why I should do any particular part of it differently. That's my take on it all. I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts. (And of course if you have any specific info. from OSHA...) Sorry so wordy. (Could have been worse, trust me.) Thanks!! Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:21:04 -0500 From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Lab Std vs. Formaldehyde Std MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IN the preamble to the Lab Standard, Fed. Register Vol. 55 No. 21, page 3311, it says: "OSHA sees no reason why laboratories, other than histology, pathology and anatomy laboratories, which use formaldehyde should not be covered by this laboratory standard." I can't tell if the intent was to continue the formaldehyde standard as well, but I suspect it was. Hope this helps! Bob "SEMPER ADVENTURUS!!!" Robert L. Burns R&D Group Leader Specialty Chemicals Division RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 815 333 4805 email rburns@bigfoot.com >A very interesting issue. Actually, I feel it is fairly clear that OSHA >INTENDS labs to be covered by the Formaldehyde Standard. (before you delete >this, please read on.) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:53:16 -0400 From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Mime-Version: 1.0 >Briefly, The lessons I take home from the Johnson Controls case and the ADA >are that there's no prohibition of offering a non-lab assignment as long as >pay, leave, etc. is preserved, BUT if the employee refuses the reassignment, >then you must make any "reasonable accommodation" that can make it safe for >her to do her normal duties, or modify her duties with her approval as much >as necessary. Now that we are fully back to the thread on pregnancy in the laboratory setting, I'll venture that Johnson Controls case makes asking an employee to sign a waiver completely inappropriate. With regard to ADA, my understanding is that students are covered under the public accomodations aspects of the Act. I don't know whether ADA in fact recognizes uncomplicated pregnancy as a disability - can anyone confim? We've had several laboratory-based Chemistry and Biology professors and students remain at their posts through pregancies. Our approach, as reviewed with the college's attorney, has been to address pregnancy only when people self-identify their status, to provide them lots of information from the literature on reproductive hazards, to offer them alternatives to lab work (or a refund of tuition if they choose to drop courses - can't quite guarantee full credit for say, organic chemistry w/o lab work), and to work with them to minimize exposure if they choose to remain in the labs. Modifications have included use of respirators, finding someone else to perform specific tasks, and substitutions of particular lab exercises/materials, but I have not encountered anyone who was willing to take a non-lab alternate position. This approach is based as much on the culture of our institutions as on our concerns about risk. I present it as an example, rather than as a suggested solution. Don ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:55:56 -0500 From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard Comments: To: Labsafe@aol.com In-Reply-To: <6426f19b.36dcaec1@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, I've had more than one argument with consulting trainers about the very topic of the Lab Standard replacing the RTK standard. I agree with you, my interpretation is that it supersedes the hazcom standard. We've always trained as such. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:42:02 -0600 From: Beth Brubaker Subject: Re: flash points Mime-Version: 1.0 It looks to me as if the Tag Closed Tester is most appropriate for solvent/water mixtures. The Pensky-Martens is applicable to high-viscosity materials. Fisher Sci. has one available at a catalog price ~$1600. I assume a refrigerating circulator would also be required to cool the system below ambient temperature. This would be ~$1800. Beth Brubaker Lab/Safety/Waste Coordinator Murray State University Department of Chemistry (502) 762-6390 beth.brubaker@murraystate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:28:46 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Re: Lab Std vs. Formaldehyde Std MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" * IN the preamble to the Lab Standard, Fed. Register Vol. 55 No. 21, page * 3311, it says: "OSHA sees no reason why laboratories, other than histology, * pathology and anatomy laboratories, which use formaldehyde should not be * covered by this laboratory standard." Hmmmmmmm... I went looking for the related compliance directive for the revised standard at www.osha.gov . The one from Nov 1990 (CPL 2-2.52) ( OSHA's formaldehyde standard enforcement procedures) talks about the interface with the Lab Standard specifically, as the Lab Standard final rule had been issued... Here it is, straight from OSHA: ****************************************** "The laboratory standard, 29 CFR 1910.1450, specifically does not apply to formaldehyde use in histology, pathology, and human or animal anatomy laboratories; however, if formaldehyde is used in other types of laboratories which are covered by the laboratory standard the employer needs to comply with 29 CFR 1910.1450 " ******************************************** This is what OSHA inspectors use to direct their enforcement of the Formaldehyde Standard. I think the intent is clear. Sorry I didn't fully research this before "opening my big mouth". The above is what we all needed to know from the get-go! Of course now seeing it, I remember reading this before, exactly as stated here. Obviously if OSHA tells their inspectors this, then we had better be ready to defend ourselves if we choose not to "do" the formaldehyde standard in histo, path, or anatomy labs. BTW, OSHA now has some preambles on their website. Don't know how comprehensive, but I must say it behooves one to read either preambles or compliance directives or both for any reg that may apply. I know takes lots of time, but take it a little bit at a time. It can also enrich your training tremendously if you know more about WHY OSHA has chosen to require what they do. Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:31:51 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I concur 100%, with the caveat that I feel that OSHA doesn't communicate this very clearly, in preamble or actual reg. Also remember as another has already pointed out, that any exposures outside of the lab are covered under Haz Comm and any substance-specific standards for the substance. Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:01:52 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain However: It you have both manufacturing/quality labs and research labs you may need to do both since the manufacturing areas do not necessarily fall under your CHP. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Labsafe@AOL.COM [SMTP:Labsafe@AOL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 8:39 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard In a message dated 99-03-01 15:06:31 EST, you write: << It just seems clear to me that OSHA meant for both standards to apply. >> Randy presents a clear and reasonable argument. However, my reading of the scope, section (a), of the lab standard leaves me with the equally clear belief that there was no intention to have both standards apply. Recently, I spoke with the Director of the PESH in NY and his regulatory interpreter. Both confirmed that my interpretation was 100% correct. The presumption (which I believe is reasonable) in the lab standard is that if you develope a plan of good practice and follow it, you do not need to do that other stuff (Haz Com). ... jim LSW is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, seminar schedule, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:49:49 -0500 From: Michelle DeStefano Subject: Re: welcome Mime-Version: 1.0 Dear fellow "NACHO's", As a new member, I have been asked to introduce myself, so here goes... I am a supervisor in a research mycobacteriology laboratory where our focus is tuberculosis. My main interest is biosafety and I am a CBSP (Certified Biological Safety Specialist). I am a member of our institution's Biosafety Committee. In addition, I am Chair of the Research Safety Subcommittee which is a "hands-on" type of committee that is comprised almost exclusively of technical staff. We try to address all the safety issues that are involved in working in a research laboratory as well as trying to keep up with the ever-changing regulations. (That keeps us REALLY busy) This is the reason that I felt subscribing to this discussion group would be a useful tool. Some of the main issues I have are: what do you do to provide effective support to staff and how do you provide follow-up? We have a semi-annual walk-thru of the facility and compliance goals, but I would like to see more of the staff get involved. Nice "meeting" all of you... CNY Research Corporation 800 Irving Avenue Syracuse NY 13210 e-mail : destefam@cnyrc.org phone : (315) 477 4597 fax : (315) 476 5348 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:24:58 -0800 From: Michael Ahler Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard In-Reply-To: <45C82258A1B2D111892500805FCC9B0D011C04CA@nt05.wstf.nasa.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="Re:" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben, Your treck through all your areas at work sounds right to me ( Lab standard vs. haz com) except for one. When you are in a laboratory owned and operated by others, whether or not you are "working", you should be covered by the Chemical Hygiene Plan for THAT laboratory, not the Plan for the lab where you usually treck. Only my first impression. Thanks. Michael Ahler, CHO mahler@calpoly.edu Risk Management Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, California ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:20:20 -0600 Reply-To: "swiki@bihs.net" From: Swiki Anderson Subject: Re: C Un.....-Re: PREVENTION BY COST EFFECTIVELY ADDRESSING TH E BASIS PROBLEM? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Norman, Obviously I offend you and I apologize for that. Offending you was not my purpose. Now allow me to now make a confession to you. I taught in an engineering college for 17 years and have been in the consulting business for about 20 years, with specialty work in labs. About four years ago, largely as a result of a lawsuit against us, I was forced to go to the library and dig into what took place historically in laboratory air flow and control systems. One day after reviewing some of the work of other others, it hit me like a ton of bricks. The early scientists had pull only ventilation systems in their labs, they did work in hoods and their primary concern was containment ventilation within the hood. And, by Golly, they did one heck of a job, accomplishing what was needed. The goal was containment in devices designed for containment purposes... fume hoods and other capture devices. We blew it when we started trying to air condition labs and tried to go to push-pull system. Also going to a cheaper hood designs with lousy aerodynamic characteristics did not help. As a matter of fact this hurt the development effort. We have been wrestling with the push aspects since to include how to sweep the room with make up air, when to introduce the air in to the room, how to keep the hood sashes shut or at minimum opening at all time, how to control the air flows so the exhaust rate is always greater than and set the room supply rate, etc.. and the contributing factors to the overall problem since that started in the early 1950s goes on and on.. I begun to realize --- to understand in great depth --- containment ventilation versus dilution ventilation. And heck, I was a member of the ASHRAE group that wrote the first ASHRAE 110 Standard... the one that is concerned with use of tracer gas to prove containment. Talk about feeling stupid!!! YES... I had designed lab air systems to meet 10 or 20 or 15 ACH... and YES, I had written big bad specifications for hoods and YES, we had done mock-up studies, and the list goes on and on. However, I did not understand what I should have understood. I had to keep asking my self WHY is this taking place? Why is this not repeatable? Why does this factor seem to be of significance in case A and not in case B? The revelation of the concept of containment versus dilutions was the beginning of my understanding. And what did I learn? Well, we don't need 10 or 15 or 20 ACH to contain material in a fume hood or other capture device and if we have this many, we can not protect the dunce that insist on doing something outside a hood that should be done in the hood. I learned that we need to design on the basis of the air flow concept and not on the basis of satisfaction of some "rabbinical" type item that is so concerned with exactness of some fact that it allows "..the baby to be thrown out of the bath water." And, so help me, it is so simple to me now that I wonder why i glossed over the concept for so long! Now, how can I encourage you and others like you to "wake up and smell the roses" and learn and experience what I have learned? This to me is very much like instrument flying..When I was going through the training, before i caught on, I has passed the tests with flying colors, I knew the equations, I had been a VFR pilot for some time, etc....but didn't go together for me until the day the it all clicked in my mind. I had to put it all together in my own heads to be able to safely take off in a sea of white, with the confidence to do that come about painfully in regards to time and effort spent before it "clicked". Now, I had one in our group take me to task regarding Columbia and tell me that I did not know what I was talking about and should keep my opinions to myself. This person also did not like the "tone" of what I wrote. With regard to what happened at Columbia, let us logic through it. The OSHA regs are concerned with concentration exposures of the user. Since most users don't stick their heads in a fume hood, it is logical to me that concentration can be much higher in a hood then they are in the room where the hood is installed. If the concentrations in the room are high then they should be, then the only source of contamination has to be what someone is doing in the work space that they ought not be doing or the hoods or other devices are not containing as they should. Can you agree with this? If outflow exist from the hood then something must be wrong. If the source is in the room, then we must deal with a different set of wrongs. Containment in the hood is a one ventilation problem and dilution in the room is another problem. I believe that harmful activities should be conducted in the hoods or similar such devices. Regardless, for OSHA to find fault given the ways the regs are written, someone has had to take some long term (time) samples in order to condemn the operation as faulty. Otherwise they would have no basis for condemnation under the OSHA regs would they? If the regs condemn on the basis of concentration then the ventilation system lacks sufficient volume to dilute the material to a safe level in the work place, does it not?. Thus the work place has a problem. If the system fails to contain the material in the hood, then the hood has a ventilation related problem, does it not? I can not believe that some OSHA regulator is going to issue a citation without some measurements or other sustainable basis for condemnation; that would invite the wrath of every one plus great ridicule would it not? Could it possibly be that someone, perhaps an employee, has taken the data and turned it over to OSHA? Oh, I agree that the OSHA inspector probably did not take data and I also agree that he needs training. God, with the OSHA office in Houston and the staff they have, I wonder how they have the manpower to answer the phone. They like all of the OSHA offices are underfunded and the staff, at least in that office is really spread thin! The point is, if you have rust on the outside of your hoods, the brass is green, and other tell signs of high concentrations exist in your labs, your labs may not be enjoying containment ventilation. Now what are we going to do about it? Shoot the messenger? We can but that is not going to solve the problem. Given the large number of labs I visit and the problems I see over and over and given the fact that I can offer performance proof of the claims that I make and guarantee correct for these type problems or at least minimizing the workplace concentration problem COST EFFECTIVELY, what can I say? I am spend a great deal of my time and effort trying to educate and improve the work place by sharing what I have painfully learned, done at my expense. Am I wrong? Good engineering and performance is done on the basis of measured and repeatable performance. Oh, well. -----Original Message----- From: Norman, Randy [SMTP:RNorman@BIORELIANCE.COM] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 2:55 PM * Many lab users and lab safety people don't know the difference * between these two concepts (see http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer * /html/tech-notex.htm and click on Dilution vs. containment Ventilation! Where are all of these incompetent lab safety people?? Why "trash" them so HERE? Haven't met a one of them yet that didn't know the difference between dilution and local exhaust ventilation. If they know there's a lab std. they must know of the need for local exhaust devices and know or quickly learn when they should be used. I would posit that if they've been proactive enough to subscribe to this listserver, they have probably also learned at least the basics. * If a lab has a dilution ventilation system then it is not working * correctly or the release rate of the toxic material is to high. ???? - I am guessing what is meant is that one should not count on dilution ventilation as your only means of protection from those materials which should be used in a hood. However, adequate dilution ventilation is very important for a lab! We require 10 Air Changes/Hr minimum (yes I know ACH is a rather outmoded measure, but it's easy to verify). What does 10 ACH guarantee? What is your basis of dictating 10 ACH? Why not 20 ACH? Could higher flows and greater face velocities hurt the situation rather than help it? Again, I hope I do not offend you and you will continue to question me. I always learn when someone makes me think and defend what I am doing and saying. Kindest Regards Swiki Anderson, Ph.D., P.E. President Swiki Anderson and Associates, Inc. Consulting Mechanical, Electrical and Instrumentation Engineers 1516 Shiloh Ave. Bryan, Texas 77803 v. 409.779.6068, x11; f-6085 Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:34:38 -0700 From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: NACHO Meeting March 22nd in Anaheim Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've met so very few of you face-to-face, that I am very much looking forward to the National ACS Meeting in Anaheim, California, later this month! Are we still on for a NACHO Breakfast Meeting, 7:00 a.m., on Monday March 22nd? (..."in the restaurant of the hotel where the Council Committee on Chemical Safety meets at 8:30 a.m. to noon"...) Do we have a "meetings" link at our NACHO site? I could not find one. Can we ask ACS to include a NACHO Meeting link in their Anaheim-meeting-information at their website? Teresa Robertson CSUB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:29:58 -0500 From: Bill Schultz Subject: Lab Standard - HAZCOM - Formaldehyde Standard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe all three apply depending on the use of the chemical. I quote from the regulation: (a) Scope and application. (1) This section shall apply to all employers engaged in the laboratory use of hazardous chemicals as defined below. (2) Where this section applies, it shall supersede, for laboratories, the requirements of all other health standards in 29 CFR 1910, subpart Z, except as follows: (i) For any OSHA health standard, only the requirement to limit employee exposure to the specific permissible exposure limit shall apply for laboratories, unless that particular standard states otherwise or unless the conditions of paragraph (a)(2)(iii) of this section apply. (ii) Prohibition of eye and skin contact where specified by any OSHA health standard shall be observed. (iii) Where the action level (or in the absence of an action level, the permissible exposure limit) is routinely exceeded for an OSHA regulated substance with exposure monitoring and medical surveillance requirements, paragraphs (d) and (g)(1)(ii) of this section shall apply. In my terms: When we are using formaldehyde in a laboratory the formaldehyde is covered under the Lab Standard. However, you have to refer to the Formaldehyde Standard to determine if the Standard lists a PEL and if so whether it specifically states that the PEL does not apply to laboratories and finally are there any skin and eye contact prohibitions. Since there is no statement in the Formaldehyde Standard that the PEL does not apply to laboratories, the PEL and skin and eye contacts section of the Formaldehyde Standard are incorporated into the Lab Standard. When we are using formaldehyde to decontaminate a Biological Safety Cabinet inside one of our laboratories the HAZCOM Standard and the Formaldehyde Standard apply. It seems confusing but a simple analogy for me is if I am dissolving something in a beaker with alcohol the Lab Standard applies. If I am cleaning the writing off the outside of a beaker with alcohol the HAZCOM standard applies. And if there was an Alcohol Standard sections of it would always apply. Bill Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:12:16 -0700 From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mike - I would agree if the other lab's plan is more stringent or more protective than my own. My current plan specifies we follow whichever is more stringent. Hypothetical Example - a person embarks on a paid training course at another lab in which there is minor hands-on mixing of reagents (such as for instrumental analysis) required. The other lab's plan does not require goggles when handling liquids, only safety glasses. The person's employer's plan requires goggles. The person asks for and wears goggles in accordance with his/her plan. If the person had worn safety glasses according to the other lab's plan and had received an injurious liquid splash to the eye, would not the person had violated his/her employer's plan and would not his/her employer be liable for not implementing the provisions of the employer's plan that would have protected the eyes against a splash? My opinion only, of course. Ben Greene, Ph.D AlliedSignal Las Cruces, NM > ---------- > From: Michael > Ahler[SMTP:Ahler_Michael_D/cpslo_employee1@POLYMAIL.CPUNIX.CALPOLY.EDU > ] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 11:24 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard > > Ben, > > Your treck through all your areas at work sounds right to me ( Lab > standard vs. haz com) except for one. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:35:41 -0800 From: Melonee Cruse Organization: Chaffey College Subject: Re: Containment vs Dilution MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Whew! That was more than a mouthful from Ms Anderson, but boy did I learn a lot. Thanks for that insightful discussion. It is a pity that you had to defend yourself because someone took your tone the wrong way. Please LabSafety folks lets try to be less defensive or offensive. Take it with a grain of salt and not as a personal or professional attack. If you feel someone has the wrong tone or is offensive - address them personally. The rest of us could do with out the "bickering"! Just a thought (not an attack!) Melonee Cruse Chaffey Community College Rancho Cucamonga, California mcruse@chaffey.cc.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:26:45 -0500 From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all. I have been quietly reading all the replies this posting has generated. I will say that I posted several missives on my opinion of pregnancy in the lab last year. I'm sure you can check them out in the archives so I'll try not to repeat myself. As several have pointed out, this could be a loose-loose situation for any employer. This said, I can not see that the feeding apparatus you describe as being a violation of "eating in the lab". I would be concerned with the potential of some chemicals to react with the bag or tubing material, but this could easily be confirmed as a possibility or not after review of the chemicals involved. Again I must say that education is the number one tool for preventing problems. With or without the feeding stuff, you still have the unborn child to consider. Personally, I had a very difficult time with nausea and vomiting for the whole of my last pregnancy. I managed to dehydrate myself at one point which earned me a day in the hospital connected to an IV. My doctor required bed rest for me for many different points in the pregnancy. Lab work or paper work were out of the question. If your worker's physician thinks she can continue to work in her current capacity, I would guess they see no serious problems or they would advise her differently. Maybe working in conjunction with her physician would be best. Let the doctor review the risks and they issue a determination. We have used this tact with students here very successfully. I have found the docs are very often more conservative than even myself in risk assessment. I also think it might be easier for her to follow her doctors orders on this sensitive issue than perhaps a mandate from administrative types who could be construed as trying to cover their butts. These situations need to be handled case by case in a systematic way that allows for differences in risk based on the facts as we know them today. Some lab duties are less stressful than some paper pushing tasks and may therefore be less dangerous to an unborn babe and his/her mother. Look at all the facts and then look again. Good luck. If you would like to discuss this further, e-mail me directly. This is one of my pet issues. Hope this helps, Janeen. ***************** Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:28:52 -0800 From: Ray Campbell Subject: Re: NACHO Meeting March 22nd in Anaheim In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 As I work only a few miles away, I would like information on activities for NACHO members. I have not seen anything else besides this posting. Ray Campbell REA CHO 310-257-1080 At 09:34 AM 3/3/99 -0700, you wrote: >I've met so very few of you face-to-face, that I am very much looking >forward to the National ACS Meeting in Anaheim, California, later this >month! > >Are we still on for a NACHO Breakfast Meeting, 7:00 a.m., on Monday >March 22nd? (..."in the restaurant of the hotel where the Council >Committee on Chemical Safety meets at 8:30 a.m. to noon"...) > >Do we have a "meetings" link at our NACHO site? I could not find one. > >Can we ask ACS to include a NACHO Meeting link in their >Anaheim-meeting-information at their website? > >Teresa Robertson >CSUB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:15:54 -0500 From: Bill Schultz Subject: My Chem Hygiene Plan vs Your Chem Hygiene Plan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have many contract employees and visiting scientists at our institute. I questioned OSHA about the status of these people and the Lab Standard. The response that I received was that we are the controlling employer and therefore all work is to be performed under the requirements of our chemical hygiene plan. This interpretation is no different that that of a sub contractor working for a general contractor at a construction sight. In that situation the general contractor is the controlling employer and the employees of the sub contratctor must comply with the HAZCOM program of the general contractor. Bill Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:29:51 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Re: My Chem Hygiene Plan vs Your Chem Hygiene Plan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, but.....?? I expect that the contract employee's employer would still have some liability if the host employer's program was deficient. Probably not at risk of an OSHA citation, but if anyone were hurt, their employer takes the worker's comp. "hit". Clearly, contractors and host employers H&S pros must work together. Putting aside the law, it would be unethical to allow your employees to be exposed to undue hazard just because it's not technically your responsibility. Shared responsibility is just plain ethical. Okay so I'm naïve.... Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland -----Original Message----- From: Bill Schultz [SMTP:william_schultz@DETRICK.ARMY.MIL] Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 4:16 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:My Chem Hygiene Plan vs Your Chem Hygiene Plan We have many contract employees and visiting scientists at our institute. I questioned OSHA about the status of these people and the Lab Standard. The response that I received was that we are the controlling employer and therefore all work is to be performed under the requirements of our chemical hygiene plan. This interpretation is no different that that of a sub contractor working for a general contractor at a construction sight. In that situation the general contractor is the controlling employer and the employees of the sub contratctor must comply with the HAZCOM program of the general contractor. Bill Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:47:37 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: My Chem Hygiene Plan vs Your Chem Hygiene Plan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Just a question...If the sub contractor owns the building (but doesn't do lab work) & the prime contractor is leasing space from the sub contractor for doing lab work, whose CHP? Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Bill Schultz [SMTP:william_schultz@DETRICK.ARMY.MIL] Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 2:16 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:My Chem Hygiene Plan vs Your Chem Hygiene Plan We have many contract employees and visiting scientists at our institute. I questioned OSHA about the status of these people and the Lab Standard. The response that I received was that we are the controlling employer and therefore all work is to be performed under the requirements of our chemical hygiene plan. This interpretation is no different that that of a sub contractor working for a general contractor at a construction sight. In that situation the general contractor is the controlling employer and the employees of the sub contratctor must comply with the HAZCOM program of the general contractor. Bill Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:12:19 -0500 From: "Dr. Linda A. Swihart" Subject: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 ...for example? If an company employee or contractor's employee is performing non-lab work in a chemical lab, say electrical work on the hood, or ductwork for a new hood in existing facilities, or plumbers putting in a new sink.... or the custodial staff sweeping and emptying wastebaskets? What if this employee asks to see the chemical inventory (which the Lab Standard does not require) or the MSDSs for everything (which the Lab Standard does not require)? Linda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:21:36 +1300 From: John Downey Subject: Re: flash points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain You should be able to buy a refrigerated waterbath that will be adequate for your purposes for a lot less than $1800. most refrigerated baths have circulating pumps included as standard. You may even find one in your surplus equipment cupboard. I haven't checked, but have a look at the ASTM test method for flash points and follow that. It will prescribe the apparatus needed for different temperatures and viscosities. Good Luck John Downey > -----Original Message----- > From: Beth Brubaker [SMTP:beth.brubaker@MURRAYSTATE.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 5:42 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: flash points > > It looks to me as if the Tag Closed Tester is most appropriate for > solvent/water mixtures. The Pensky-Martens is applicable to > high-viscosity > materials. Fisher Sci. has one available at a catalog price ~$1600. I > assume a refrigerating circulator would also be required to cool the > system > below ambient temperature. This would be ~$1800. > > Beth Brubaker > Lab/Safety/Waste Coordinator > Murray State University Department of Chemistry > (502) 762-6390 > beth.brubaker@murraystate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:21:40 -0700 From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain In the preamble to 1910.1450 maintenance workers are intended to be covered under the CHP. To my understanding it doesn't matter if the work in the lab is "scientific" or not; if they are working in the lab then they are lab workers, and it is whether they may be exposed to hazardous chemicals in a lab. If they may be exposed, then the CHP applies. My interpretation Ben > ---------- > From: Dr. Linda A. Swihart[SMTP:swihart@PURDUE.EDU] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 3:12 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? > > ...for example? > > If an company employee or contractor's employee is performing non-lab > work > in a chemical lab, say electrical work on the hood, or ductwork for a > new > hood in existing facilities, or plumbers putting in a new sink.... > > or the custodial staff sweeping and emptying wastebaskets? > > What if this employee asks to see the chemical inventory (which the > Lab > Standard does not require) or the MSDSs for everything (which the Lab > Standard does not require)? > > Linda > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:58:05 -0600 From: EH&S Compliance Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and engineering controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. That is what we are about, but there are a few times (IMHO) that there are populations that can be at risk when the rest are not. Rather different case in point, here in Texas we get a few heat waves. The elderly and children are at greater risk from heat related problems (generally) than others. The same levels that could be hazardous for a mother & fetus may not have the same effects on another worker. And remember, not all chemicals have been evaluated for teratogenic effects. You may not know what safe levels are. I would not want to be the one discovering those levels. I believe the lawsuits were more than likely related to downgrade in pay as well as change in job. In some labs I don't think it would be a problem, but in others I would want to have them do something different. Evaluate the chemicals she works with and the ones others around her use. The problems associated with accidents and accidental exposure as well as 'normal' exposure could have lasting effects. As far as the tube, any way it could catch on something? Rebecca Levins EH&S Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 -----Original Message----- From: Nick Pinizzotto [SMTP:Nick.Pinizzotto@MAIL.TJU.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 4:04 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. For clarification: The patient is an employee (not a Student) here in a research lab. The physician is a doctor here at Jefferson. The physician is treating the patient in a method to eliminate her nausea due to pregnancy. I have been assured that the system is a closed system and there is no opportunity for inadvertent exposure. I must admit that I was kinda surprised by the responses. Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however if we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), is the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have sued employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to have an increased risk for adverse exposures. Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and engineering controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:15:06 +1100 Reply-To: ternai@techinfo.com.au From: "Prof. B. Ternai" Subject: Re: flash points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The book was published by the Enjay Chemical Company in 1961 and 1966. The data is from Brunjes, A.S. and Bogart, M.J.P., Ind.Eng.Chem., 35, 255 (1943) Prof. B. Ternai ternai@techinfo.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:30:47 EST From: Marshall Huckaby Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ben, I believe the standards apply to the work site (process or work being done) not to the individual or job title. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:05:49 -0500 From: "Dr. Linda A. Swihart" Subject: flam gas expansion ratios? Mime-Version: 1.0 Email reached me tonight from a State Hazardous Materials Response Team Coordinator asking how/where to quickly find expansion ratio information for various flammable gases. I don't have a quick answer for him and am hoping that someone here might have a reference off the top of your head. The expansion ratio for LPG seems to be commonly accepted as 270, i.e. 1 volume of liquefied petroleum gas gets you 270 volumes of gas at standard T and P. can anyone here provide, or recommend where to look for, expansion rations for other flammable gas mixtures or relatively pure substances? I'm not sure if he truly just wants only flammable gases, but that's what the email says. I checked the Compressed Gas Association and can't find any free info specific to this question, although they do sell a Handbook of Compressed Gases which looks a little promising. Not much other web info that I can find on quick search. (And I am at home in my jammies or I might be tempted to make visit to the library.) And for my curiosity, does anyone know the approximate ratios of hydrocarbons in LP gas? Thanks, Linda ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:25:25 -0700 From: Sharyn Bake Subject: Re: flam gas expansion ratios? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain All of the gases below as cryogenic liquids from my notes (as given by Sax and CGA material - collected over the years) : Argon = 840 to 1 fluorine= 980 to 1 helium = 700 to 1 hydrogen = 848 to 1 krypton = 695 to 1 natural gas (as methane) = 635 to 1 neon = 1445 to 1 nitrogen = 694 to 1 oxygen = 857 to 1 xenon = 560 to 1 propane = 270 to 1 gasoline 37 to 1 CO =680 to 1 chlorine = 458 to 1 Can't remember Ammonia but it is quite high, in the 800 range I think. Also note, that some references may vary a bit but it is not critical. For example, oxygen may be listed in one reference as 857 and in another reference at 860. Hope this helps. Sharyn Baker Instructor Health and Safety Division University of Colorado Health Sciences Center Denver, Colorado email: sharyn.baker@uchsc.edu > ---------- > From: Dr. Linda A. Swihart > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Wednesday, March 3, 1999 9:05 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: flam gas expansion ratios? > > Email reached me tonight from a State Hazardous Materials Response Team > Coordinator asking how/where to quickly find expansion ratio information > for various flammable gases. I don't have a quick answer for him and am > hoping that someone here might have a reference off the top of your head. > > The expansion ratio for LPG seems to be commonly accepted as 270, i.e. 1 > volume of liquefied petroleum gas gets you 270 volumes of gas at standard > T > and P. can anyone here provide, or recommend where to look for, > expansion > rations for other flammable gas mixtures or relatively pure substances? > > I'm not sure if he truly just wants only flammable gases, but that's what > the email says. > > I checked the Compressed Gas Association and can't find any free info > specific to this question, although they do sell a Handbook of Compressed > Gases which looks a little promising. Not much other web info that I > can > find on quick search. (And I am at home in my jammies or I might be > tempted to make visit to the library.) > > And for my curiosity, does anyone know the approximate ratios of > hydrocarbons in LP gas? > > Thanks, > Linda > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:40:14 -0700 From: Sharyn Bake Subject: flam gas expansion / addendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain All of the gases below as cryogenic liquids from my notes (as given by Sax and CGA material - collected over the years) : Argon = 840 to 1 fluorine= 980 to 1 helium = 700 to 1 hydrogen = 848 to 1 krypton = 695 to 1 natural gas (as methane) = 635 to 1 neon = 1445 to 1 nitrogen = 694 to 1 oxygen = 857 to 1 xenon = 560 to 1 propane = 270 to 1 gasoline 37 to 1 CO =680 to 1 chlorine = 458 to 1 LPG = 600-1 (principally as propane/butane with small amounts of other hydrocarbons) Can't remember Ammonia but it is quite high, in the 800 range I think. Also note, that some references may vary a bit but it is not critical. For example, oxygen may be listed in one reference as 857 and in another reference at 860. Hope this helps. Sharyn Baker Instructor Health and Safety Division University of Colorado Health Sciences Center Denver, Colorado email: sharyn.baker@uchsc.edu > ---------- > From: Dr. Linda A. Swihart > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Wednesday, March 3, 1999 9:05 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: flam gas expansion ratios? > > Email reached me tonight from a State Hazardous Materials Response Team > Coordinator asking how/where to quickly find expansion ratio information > for various flammable gases. I don't have a quick answer for him and am > hoping that someone here might have a reference off the top of your head. > > The expansion ratio for LPG seems to be commonly accepted as 270, i.e. 1 > volume of liquefied petroleum gas gets you 270 volumes of gas at standard > T > and P. can anyone here provide, or recommend where to look for, > expansion > rations for other flammable gas mixtures or relatively pure substances? > > I'm not sure if he truly just wants only flammable gases, but that's what > the email says. > > I checked the Compressed Gas Association and can't find any free info > specific to this question, although they do sell a Handbook of Compressed > Gases which looks a little promising. Not much other web info that I > can > find on quick search. (And I am at home in my jammies or I might be > tempted to make visit to the library.) > > And for my curiosity, does anyone know the approximate ratios of > hydrocarbons in LP gas? > > Thanks, > Linda > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:14:34 +1300 From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: flam gas expansion ratios? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Linda, CHOs in Jammies gives a whole new dimension to this forum *grin*. Sharyn has provided a pretty comprehensive list although I strongly disagree with her 600:1 for LPG. The figure is closer to 270:1 and varies with the composition. I too am at home but not quite to the jammies stage, but from memory Butane is about 250:1 and Propane is about 290:1. A "commercial mix" i.e.pretty much as extracted, in this neck of the woods is 60 Propane: 40 Butane plus odds and sods. I think buried on my shelves in the office is a handbook of properties of common gases which gives expansion ratios in a different form from which the ratios of liquid to gas can be derived. It's a year or two since I referred to it and I've moved offices since then. I'll look it up tomorrow and pass on anything useful. I'm 21 hrs ahead of the West Coast and 18 hours ahead of the East Coast (I think) so when is tomorrow? In the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy the answer was 42!! Regards Tony Haggerty Haz Subs Adviser NZ fire Service ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:23:26 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Applicability of Compliance Directives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-03 12:22:44 EST, you write: << I went looking for the related compliance directive for the revised standard at www.osha.gov . The one from Nov 1990 (CPL 2-2.52) ( OSHA's formaldehyde standard enforcement procedures) talks about the interface with the Lab Standard specifically, as the Lab Standard final rule had been issued... Here it is, straight from OSHA: ****************************************** "The laboratory standard, 29 CFR 1910.1450, specifically does not apply to formaldehyde use in histology, pathology, and human or animal anatomy laboratories; however, if formaldehyde is used in other types of laboratories which are covered by the laboratory standard the employer needs to comply with 29 CFR 1910.1450 " >> Hi NACHOs, Keep in mind that since the Compliance Directive is not the regulation, but rather only an interpretation, it would ultimately be the US Supreme Court that would decide the meaning of the regulation. The regulation itself does not speak to any distinction of applicability in histology, pathology, and human or animal anatomy laboratories. One critical issue, within the regulation, would be whether it meets the definition of a laboratory. This definition includes use of small quantities. If large quantities are involved then perhaps it is not a "laboratory" any more for purposes of regulatory coverage (irrespective of the sign on the door). ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:23:28 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: NACHO Breakfast in Anaheim Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-03 14:22:47 EST, you write: << Are we still on for a NACHO Breakfast Meeting, 7:00 a.m., on Monday March 22nd? (..."in the restaurant of the hotel where the Council Committee on Chemical Safety meets at 8:30 a.m. to noon"...) >> Hi NACHOs, I won't be attending and Pat Hamm won't be staying through Monday. So, we need somone to volunteer to be the host/arranger/announcer (here) if there is still going to be a breakfast. Any takers? Our next gathering will likely be in Philadelphia in conjunction with the LS&EM meeting the week of July 26th. The lab safety seminar is on Thursday, July 29th and the CHO prep course is on Friday, July 30th. The NACHO gathering would be either Wednesday or Thursday evening depending on what's going on with the conference. I'll have to check with Frank. .... Jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:23:29 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lab Standard - HAZCOM - Formaldehyde Standard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-03 14:40:35 EST, you write: << When we are using formaldehyde to decontaminate a Biological Safety Cabinet inside one of our laboratories the HAZCOM Standard and the Formaldehyde Standard apply. It seems confusing but a simple analogy for me is if I am dissolving something in a beaker with alcohol the Lab Standard applies. If I am cleaning the writing off the outside of a beaker with alcohol the HAZCOM standard applies. And if there was an Alcohol Standard sections of it would always apply. >> Hi NACHOs, It's not clear to me what the basis is for making this distinction. Part of lab work is keeping the lab equipment clean (inside and out - although in many labs they seem to have forgotten this ). Therefore, I still believe that it is the lab standard that applies. The exceptions, as noted in the standard, speak for themselves. Stay routinely below the appropriate limits. If you can't, follow the substance specific standard. ... Jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:23:24 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lab Standard in Others' Labs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-03 10:42:26 EST, you write: << When I am on work-sponsered travel and visiting/working in a lab not owned by my employer, I am covered by the lab standard and must abide by MY chemical hygiene plan. >> Hi NACHOs, The issue of what to do in other's labs will depend in part on the other lab's visitor policy. ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:40:53 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: NACHO Meeting March 22nd in Anaheim Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-03 16:19:02 EST, you write: << As I work only a few miles away, I would like information on activities for NACHO members. I have not seen anything else besides this posting. >> Hi NACHOs, Sounds like Ray Campbell would be a great host. Hey Ray, what do you say! ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:52:58 -0500 From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>>>snip>>>> If an company employee or contractor's employee is performing non-lab work in a chemical lab, say electrical work on the hood, or ductwork for a new hood in existing facilities, or plumbers putting in a new sink.... or the custodial staff sweeping and emptying wastebaskets? What if this employee asks to see the chemical inventory (which the Lab Standard does not require) or the MSDSs for everything (which the Lab Standard does not require)? To address Linda's questions: Here at UNE, we train these folks in special sessions prior to the work beginning in a lab area. I point and wave to show them the hazards that I could not remove from the area. I show them the CHP and tell them the Chemical Inventory can be viewed on the computer. If there are any chems that could be a problem, they get the MSDS for the stuff. I require them to wear the PPE required for the area. All of our maintenance and housekeeping folks are trained in lab safety if they work in those areas. They all know who to see before starting work in a specified building or lab. Its communication that keeps alls these regs from falling down around our ears. In my opinion, regardless of title or department, if you work in a lab you need lab safety training and you need to wear the PPE needed in the area when you enter. Does it matter if we call it Haz-Com or CHP? The same info needs to be disseminated to all workers in these hazardous areas. For what its worth, Janeen. PS I will be giving a general lab safety training session at the Northern New England Chapter ERAPPA"s spring conference later this month. I will be speaking to this very issue of how to train Maintenance and housekeeper types who work in lab areas. I'm very excited about UNE's commitment to furthering this type of safety training. If you want more info, e-mail me directly. ***************** Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:09:03 -0500 From: "Thomas J. Shelley" Subject: Re: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990303171219.00858960@postoffice.purdue.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 >...for example? > >If an company employee or contractor's employee is performing non-lab work >in a chemical lab, say electrical work on the hood, or ductwork for a new >hood in existing facilities, or plumbers putting in a new sink.... > >or the custodial staff sweeping and emptying wastebaskets? > >What if this employee asks to see the chemical inventory (which the Lab >Standard does not require) or the MSDSs for everything (which the Lab >Standard does not require)? Dear Colleagues--Technically, those who are normally Haz Com workers, such as those folks Linda mentions above, should be trained under the Lab Standard as well as the Haz Com Std. The feasibility of doing this, especially at a large organization such as ours (11,500 staff), is overwhelming. We have taken a middle road. I have prepared a separate (from regular Haz Com training) training program for the staff of our technical shops called "Lab Hazards for Non-Lab Workers" which is basically a Lab Standard training for those who work in labs that aren't lab staff. Several hundred plumbers, carpenters, electricians, control shop staff, masons, etc., who work at Cornell have had this training. Our Care of Buildings department (janitorial/custodial staff) has a separate training program that deals with working in a lab environment which is presented to several hunderd C of B staff over time. This is basically a specialized program similar to my "Lab Hazards for Non-Lab Workers" training which is presented by C of B in-house training staff. This type of training definitely pays off as the increased worker awarness prevents accidents and incidents and increases the overall safety of labs. The non-lab staff have contacted me numerous times when they find unsafe conditions or practices, none of which would have been reported by the lab staff themselves. (Imagine!!) My $.02. Tom ********************************************************* Tom Shelley, Chemical Hygiene Officer, Cornell University Department of Environmental Health and Safety, 125 Humphreys Service Building, Ithaca, NY 14853. (607) 255-4288 tjs1@cornell.edu ****************************DISCLAIMER******************** The comments and views expressed in this communication are strictly my own and are not to be construed to officially represent those of my peers, supervisors or Cornell University. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:26:20 -0500 From: Naomi Kelly Subject: Re: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990303171219.00858960@postoffice.purdue.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 We require inventories and MSDSs in laboratories. It seems practical and covers a lot of bases (i.e., emergency personnel know what is in the laboratory before they enter if there is an inventory and requiring MSDSs provides a uniform, practical way of ensuring the availability of "known reference material" on the signs and symptoms of exposure, PELS, handling, storage, and disposal of hazardous chemicals found in the laboratory...as required in the Lab Standard. It also covers you in many other situations, such as the one you described here. At 05:12 PM 3/3/99 -0500, you wrote: >...for example? > >If an company employee or contractor's employee is performing non-lab work >in a chemical lab, say electrical work on the hood, or ductwork for a new >hood in existing facilities, or plumbers putting in a new sink.... > >or the custodial staff sweeping and emptying wastebaskets? > >What if this employee asks to see the chemical inventory (which the Lab >Standard does not require) or the MSDSs for everything (which the Lab >Standard does not require)? > >Linda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:28:33 -0500 From: Bill Schultz Subject: Re[2]: My Chem Hygiene Plan vs Your Chem Hygiene Plan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit When dealing with contract employees you should specify in the contract who is liable for the medical requirements of the Lab Standard. If you do not then OSHA will hold both the controling employer and the contract employees employer equally liable. OSHA doesn't care who provides the coverage as long as it is provided. And the information concerning who and how the coverage is provided must be provided to the contract employee at the time of initial assignment. Workers comp is a totally different ballgame. It is not an OSHA issue but a DOL issue which usually requires a legal determination to find out who is responsible, with many different issues taken into consideration. However, this can also be resolved by stating who is responsible for what in the contract. The logic for the Chem Hygiene Plan of the controlling employer being the applicable one is based on the philosophy of the Lab Standard, each laboratory is unique and therefore no one plan is valid everywhere. If this were not so OSHA could have issued a Chemical Hygine Plan rather than requiring everyone to write their own. I have a problem with assuming employees are going to be exposed to undue hazards because they are working under someone elses Chem Hygiene Plan. Unless you have evidence to the contrary you should be able to assume that everyones Chem Hygine Plan is as good for their work situation as yours is for your work situation. This would not preclude employees who feel they get no satisfactory resolution for safety issues brought up to the controlling employer from reporting the situation to the contracting employer. Keep in mind that there are comnpanies out there that supply contract employees to laboratories just the way Manpower supplies contract employees to general industry. These companies do not have laboratories, there sole function is to supply contract employees, therefore they are not covered under the Lab Standard. Bill Schultz ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: My Chem Hygiene Plan vs Your Chem Hygiene Plan Author: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List at Internet-Mail Date: 3/3/99 4:29 PM Yes, but.....?? I expect that the contract employee's employer would still have some liability if the host employer's program was deficient. Probably not at risk of an OSHA citation, but if anyone were hurt, their employer takes the worker's comp. "hit". Clearly, contractors and host employers H&S pros must work together. Putting aside the law, it would be unethical to allow your employees to be exposed to undue hazard just because it's not technically your responsibility. Shared responsibility is just plain ethical. Okay so I'm naïve.... Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:28:42 -0500 From: Bill Schultz Subject: Re[2]: My Chem Hygiene Plan vs Your Chem Hygiene Plan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The prime contractor is the only one doing lab work and therefore would be the only one required to have a CHP. Bill Schultz ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: My Chem Hygiene Plan vs Your Chem Hygiene Plan Author: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List at Internet-Mail Date: 3/3/99 2:47 PM Just a question...If the sub contractor owns the building (but doesn't do lab work) & the prime contractor is leasing space from the sub contractor for doing lab work, whose CHP? Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Bill Schultz [SMTP:william_schultz@DETRICK.ARMY.MIL] Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 2:16 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:My Chem Hygiene Plan vs Your Chem Hygiene Plan We have many contract employees and visiting scientists at our institute. I questioned OSHA about the status of these people and the Lab Standard. The response that I received was that we are the controlling employer and therefore all work is to be performed under the requirements of our chemical hygiene plan. This interpretation is no different that that of a sub contractor working for a general contractor at a construction sight. In that situation the general contractor is the controlling employer and the employees of the sub contratctor must comply with the HAZCOM program of the general contractor. Bill Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:24:39 -0700 From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: NACHO Breakfast in Anaheim Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: ><< Are we still on for a NACHO Breakfast Meeting, 7:00 a.m., on Monday > March 22nd? (..."in the restaurant of the hotel where the Council > Committee on Chemical Safety meets at 8:30 a.m. to noon"...) >> >Hi NACHOs, >I won't be attending and Pat Hamm won't be staying through Monday. So, >we >need somone to volunteer to be the host/arranger/announcer (here) if >there is >still going to be a breakfast. Any takers? The Monday was only a suggestion from a month or more ago. Would Sunday before the certification exam be better? I think so, and then I won't stay through Monday either! Teresa Robertson, CCHO CSUB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:43:44 -0600 Reply-To: "swiki@bihs.net" From: Swiki Anderson Subject: Re: Containment vs Dilution and Some Humor! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Melonee, Thanks for the note. It was a pick up for me today for several reasons. First, I am an worn-out old upper middle aged male and when my wife saw the Ms. her comments was, "Wow, I am not going to claim you for the female species! Not under any circumstances!! Your are to old and ugly." Needless to say the name "Swiki" which is my real name (my father gave it to me because he wanted his children to have unusual names) has been the point of initiation for a many a conversation. Seems Dad was working with a guy that had a pet crow with a name similar to Swiki and, like all the Andersons, he spelled it wrong, pronounced it wrong and I got stuck with it. Being named after a dadgum bird is not the worst thing however. They put me in a girls PE class when I went to Jr. High and then wouldn't let me stay when they found out I was male. Considering what some of my students sometimes named me, well, Swiki is not to bad! Regarding defending myself, I like a good argument and I have not taken offense at what was published. Because I feel very strongly about the problems in the laboratory work place and the impact of improper ventilation as a frequent cause of the problem, I do hope that I can enlighten others. I have seen some suffering needlessly caused because of lack of support and change when thing were not correct. I always learn when I am called upon to defend my ideas and to me, debate, especially when technical centered is educational. Moreover, if I can't prove my ideas with reproducible data, I ought to be questioned. I think that this is one of the things that Jim had in mind when he and the rest of the folks set this up and I have really enjoyed and benefited from most of what I have seen on this site. It is working as it should and I am confident that if I need an answer to questions I have, I have in excess of 600 sharp minds available to help me. I do appreciate your consideration and concern, however. And I thank you for your comments. Swiki Anderson ----Original Message----- From: Melonee Cruse [SMTP:mcruse@BUNNY.CHAFFEY.CC.CA.US] Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 1:36 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Containment vs Dilution Whew! That was more than a mouthful from Ms Anderson, but boy did I learn a lot. Thanks for that insightful discussion. It is a pity that you had to defend yourself because someone took your tone the wrong way. Please LabSafety folks lets try to be less defensive or offensive. Take it with a grain of salt and not as a personal or professional attack. If you feel someone has the wrong tone or is offensive - address them personally. The rest of us could do with out the "bickering"! Just a thought (not an attack!) Melonee Cruse Chaffey Community College Rancho Cucamonga, California mcruse@chaffey.cc.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:57:44 -0800 From: Melonee Cruse Organization: Chaffey College Subject: OSHA Training MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Greeting Lab Safety Professionals: Is anyone familiar with the OSHA Training Institute? These are Education Centers that offer OSHA training courses designed by OSHA. I am interested in taking the "Trainer Course in Occupational Safety and Health Standards for General Industry". This course will make me an "Outreach Trainer" and anyone trained by me in a 10- or 30 hour general industry course will receive a card (verifying completion) from the Department of Labor. I will not be an OSHA trainer but I will be an authorized OSHA General Industry Outreach Program Trainer. Anyone taken this course? Melonee Cruse Chaffey College Environmental Technology Program Coordinator mcruse@chaffey.cc.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:32:21 -0500 From: "Bondanza, Donna" Subject: Re: OSHA Training MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greeting Lab Safety Professionals: Is anyone familiar with the OSHA Training Institute? These are Education Centers that offer OSHA training courses designed by OSHA. I am interested in taking the "Trainer Course in Occupational Safety and Health Standards for General Industry". This course will make me an "Outreach Trainer" and anyone trained by me in a 10- or 30 hour general industry course will receive a card (verifying completion) from the Department of Labor. I will not be an OSHA trainer but I will be an authorized OSHA General Industry Outreach Program Trainer. Anyone taken this course? Melonee, I have taken the Outreach Trainer course and found it very useful. I used it as a means to become familiar with the OSHA standards. I took home a lot of reference material and many contacts. I'm not sure whether or not it would be sufficient as your only exposure to the standards for general instruction. I felt that I would need more if I was to go out and train, however, for the scientists at my company, it was enough to conduct safety training. The big missing point in the class was no exposure to the Lab Standard! This was why I needed more course work. They are training for general industry not laboratories. HazCom was covered. I can give you more specific info if you want it. As means of an introduction, I am a pharmaceutical chemist for a drug delivery company called NanoSystems(tm), which is a division of Elan Pharmaceutical Technologies. I have been interested in Safety for several years and my company has encouraged and supported my training. Besides my formulation duties I am an active member of our Safety Committee and our Spill Response Team (HazWoper). I also coordinate and conduct our monthly safety sessions. Donna M. Bondanza 610-313-5139 bondanzad@nanosys.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:42:44 -0500 From: "Dr. Linda A. Swihart" Subject: Re: OSHA Training In-Reply-To: <36DEE5B8.10E15584@chaffey.cc.ca.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Melonee wrote: >Is anyone familiar with the OSHA Training Institute? These are Education >Centers that offer OSHA training courses designed by OSHA. I have not, but for the information of anyone interested, the OSHA Training Institute Education Centers web site is at http://www.osha-slc.gov/Training_toc/ted_out.html Linda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:38:10 -0500 From: Bill Schultz Subject: Re: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My interpretation on this: The HAZCOM Standard does not require a chemical inventory. The word inventory does not exist in the regulation. The regulation does require a listing of chemicals present in the work place. There is not even a requirement to list the work areas where the chemicals are present. The Lab Standard does not require a listing of chemicals. The HAZCOM standard applies to any chemical which is known to be present in the workplace in such a manner that employees may be exposed under normal conditions of use or in a foreseeable emergency. If your laboratory chemicals are kept in closed containers there should be no exposure of non laboratory employees such as custodial staff under normal conditions of use since they do not use the chemicals. When maintenance personnel are performing repairs or preventive maintenance functions in a laboratory no procedures should be performed that could expose them to chemicals. By following these two simple steps the chemicals in the laboratory are excluded from the HAZCOM standard and therefore a list of them need not be maintained. If the chemicals in the laboratory are not being used and are properly stored (in closed/sealed containers) there should be no need for PPE for the above mentioned employees. This does not relieve you of the responsibility to train the above mentioned employees of the hazards of the chemicals that they may routinely use in the performance of their custodial or maintenance procedures or PPE required for use of these chemicals. Under HAZCOM these employees do need training to the extent necessary to protect them in the event of a spill or leak of a hazardous chemical present in the area (I once had a plumber knock a bottle of formaldehyde to the floor while working in a laboratory). That is simple to do by instituting a policy that in the event of a spill or leak of a chemical from a container or an unknown odor in an area where chemicals are present the employee will immediately leave the area and contact safety personnel. I consider the situation of the above mentioned employees similar to that of employees who work in a warehouse full of hazardous chemicals where the employees only handle chemicals in sealed containers which are not opened under normal conditions of use. Under these conditions paragraph (h)(2)(iii) of the regulation does not apply. In other words the employee does not have to be informed of the location and availability of the written hazard communication program, including the required list(s) of hazardous chemicals, and material safety data sheets required by this section. This does not remove the responsibility for MSDSs' for the chemicals that the custodial of maintenance personnel would use in performing their duties. This only relieves the responsibility for providing MSDSs' for the chemicals stored in the laboratory where they are performing their duties. Thanks for the stimulation. Bill Schultz ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? Author: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List at Internet-Mail Date: 3/3/99 5:12 PM ..for example? If an company employee or contractor's employee is performing non-lab work in a chemical lab, say electrical work on the hood, or ductwork for a new hood in existing facilities, or plumbers putting in a new sink.... or the custodial staff sweeping and emptying wastebaskets? What if this employee asks to see the chemical inventory (which the Lab Standard does not require) or the MSDSs for everything (which the Lab Standard does not require)? Linda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:59:28 -0500 From: Sharon Reed Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hmmm. My luck is that, being a research division at a manufacturing facility, my labs fall under both standards pretty much all the time, because of the constant commerce between the union people and lab people. We need to develop methods and processes used on the shop floor and therefore keep all MSDSs on hand and available at all times, while maintaining a strong chemical hygiene plan for our work. About the only hazcom requirement we don't follow is training every individual chemist on every individual MSDS, which they have do to in the manufacturing departments. Thank God I don't have to do that!!! We have found that, in having the MSDSs available, they have become invaluable tools for information when designing new methods and processes, so it has actually been a positive thing for us to follow both standards. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:00:11 -0700 Reply-To: terrie@cc.usu.edu From: Terrie Wierenga Organization: USDA-ARS PPRL Subject: Re: OSHA Training MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Melonee: I took the General Industry course (course 501) offered by the Rocky Mountain OSHA Outreach Education Center just this last January. I found it very worthwhile, although it did focus mainly on 1910.1200 issues. Not much was said about 1910.1450 unless we two lab people asked a question. They do pack a lot of information into the course hours and send you home with one HUGE notebook of info plus a recent edition of the 1910 standard. One of the lab exercises was to actually look in the standard for specific references dealing with things such as working surfaces, eyewash inspections, etc. I think it does help to have some experience with safety issues before you take the course. I've been CDSO for our three research units for 7 years now. If nothing else, the course gives you definitions for the many safety terms so that at least you're talking the same language with the regulators. Hope this helps! Terrie **** Terrie Wierenga, CDSO, LRPO USDA-ARS Poisonous Plant Research Laboratory 1150 East 1400 North Logan, UT 84341 v: 435-752-2941 f: 435-753-5681 e: terrie@cc.usu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:32:13 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Same here...it's really not that difficult to have both. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Reed [SMTP:Sharon_Reed@PALL.COM] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 1:59 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard Hmmm. My luck is that, being a research division at a manufacturing facility, my labs fall under both standards pretty much all the time, because of the constant commerce between the union people and lab people. We need to develop methods and processes used on the shop floor and therefore keep all MSDSs on hand and available at all times, while maintaining a strong chemical hygiene plan for our work. About the only hazcom requirement we don't follow is training every individual chemist on every individual MSDS, which they have do to in the manufacturing departments. Thank God I don't have to do that!!! We have found that, in having the MSDSs available, they have become invaluable tools for information when designing new methods and processes, so it has actually been a positive thing for us to follow both standards. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:17:20 -0700 From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" My interpretation is that if there are no hazardous chemicals that the electrician could be exposed to (and I believe this can be accomplished by either removal or control), the lab standard by definition does not apply. If the fume hood has hazardous chemicals in containers in it or contains residues of hazardous chemicals in it that the electrician could be exposed to, the lab standard applies. Unless you eliminate the hazard (remove the containers, decontaminate the hood), the lab standard applies. But is it practical to remove all chemicals from the entire lab? Not. Even if the lights are mounted in such a way that the interior of the hood need not be accessed, I would think it nearly impossible to eliminate all of the other hazards in the lab. The electrician would have to know where tools/boxes cannot be placed; such as potentially the interior of the hood, and know that inadvertent breaking into ductwork, which may also contain hazardous chemicals in residues, could result in exposure. Same with sweeping the floor. Does the person cleaning the floor know there is potential for contamination; is the same mop and bucket used in a chem lab used in general hallway or office areas; is the mop and bucket cleaned appropriately? Does the person emptying the garbage know that the empty triple rinsed reagent bottles or sample containers may contain residual contamination? I agree with a previous response that lab standard training geared toward maintenance folks is beneficial and I believe required in this kind of situation. My interpretation. Ben > ---------- > From: Bill Schultz[SMTP:william_schultz@DETRICK.ARMY.MIL] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 1:38 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the > hood? > > My interpretation on this: > > The HAZCOM Standard does not require a chemical inventory. The word > inventory > does not exist in the regulation. The regulation does require a > listing of > chemicals present in the work place. There is not even a requirement > to list > the work areas where the chemicals are present. > > The Lab Standard does not require a listing of chemicals. > > The HAZCOM standard applies to any chemical which is known to be > present in the > workplace in such a manner that employees may be exposed under normal > conditions of use or in a foreseeable emergency. > > If your laboratory chemicals are kept in closed containers there > should be no > exposure of non laboratory employees such as custodial staff under > normal > conditions of use since they do not use the chemicals. When > maintenance > personnel are performing repairs or preventive maintenance functions > in a > laboratory no procedures should be performed that could expose them > to > chemicals. By following these two simple steps the chemicals in the > laboratory > are excluded from the HAZCOM standard and therefore a list of them > need not be > maintained. > > If the chemicals in the laboratory are not being used and are > properly stored > (in closed/sealed containers) there should be no need for PPE for > the above > mentioned employees. > > This does not relieve you of the responsibility to train the above > mentioned > employees of the hazards of the chemicals that they may routinely use > in the > performance of their custodial or maintenance procedures or PPE > required for > use of these chemicals. > > Under HAZCOM these employees do need training to the extent necessary > to > protect them in the event of a spill or leak of a hazardous chemical > present in > the area (I once had a plumber knock a bottle of formaldehyde to the > floor > while working in a laboratory). That is simple to do by instituting > a policy > that in the event of a spill or leak of a chemical from a container > or an > unknown odor in an area where chemicals are present the employee will > immediately leave the area and contact safety personnel. > > I consider the situation of the above mentioned employees similar to > that of > employees who work in a warehouse full of hazardous chemicals where > the > employees only handle chemicals in sealed containers which are not > opened under > normal conditions of use. Under these conditions paragraph > (h)(2)(iii) of the > regulation does not apply. In other words the employee does not have > to be > informed of the location and availability of the written hazard > communication > program, including the required list(s) of hazardous chemicals, and > material > safety data sheets required by this section. > > This does not remove the responsibility for MSDSs' for the chemicals > that the > custodial of maintenance personnel would use in performing their > duties. This > only relieves the responsibility for providing MSDSs' for the > chemicals stored > in the laboratory where they are performing their duties. > > Thanks for the stimulation. > > Bill Schultz > ______________________________ Reply Separator > _________________________________ > Subject: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? > Author: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List at > Internet-Mail > Date: 3/3/99 5:12 PM > ..for example? > > If an company employee or contractor's employee is performing non-lab > work > in a chemical lab, say electrical work on the hood, or ductwork for a > new > hood in existing facilities, or plumbers putting in a new sink.... > > or the custodial staff sweeping and emptying wastebaskets? > > What if this employee asks to see the chemical inventory (which the > Lab > Standard does not require) or the MSDSs for everything (which the Lab > Standard does not require)? > > Linda > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:34:15 +1300 From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: flam gas expansion ratios? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Linda/Sharyn Further Info on gas expansion ratios. I have a book called Properties of Technical gases produced by Liquid Gas Equipment Ltd, Edinburgh, Scotland. They use a property called the Condensing Ratio which gives the volume of liquid condensed in cubic decimetres (litres) per cubic metre of gas (1000 litres) at NTP. Not all of the gases Sharyn quoted are in this book but there are others for future reference. Whilst some agree with her figures, others are vastly different. LPG I quoted yesterday as ~270:1 and this is confirmed. Methane I have as 1244:1 which is approximately twice your figure You or Sharyn may wish to continue this discussion off forum Regards Tony Haggerty techton@ihug.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:04:02 -0600 From: EH&S Compliance Subject: Re: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? The list requirement is not OSHA's HazCom. It is EPA's SARA Right-to-Know under 40 CFR 370. "40 CFR 370.20(a) (a) General. The requirements of this subpart apply to any facility that is required to prepare or have available a material safety data sheet (MSDS) for a hazardous chemical under the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 and regulations promulgated under that Act." As far as the warehouse stuff: "29 CFR 1910.1200(b) (4) In work operations where employees only handle chemicals in sealed containers which are not opened under normal conditions of use (such as are found in marine cargo handling, warehousing, or retail sales), this section applies to these operations only as follows: (i) Employers shall ensure that labels on incoming containers of hazardous chemicals are not removed or defaced; (ii) Employers shall maintain copies of any material safety data sheets that are received with incoming shipments of the sealed containers of hazardous chemicals, shall obtain a material safety data sheet as soon as possible for sealed containers of hazardous chemicals received without a material safety data sheet if an employee requests the material safety data sheet, and shall ensure that the material safety data sheets are readily accessible during each work shift to employees when they are in their work area(s); and, (iii) Employers shall ensure that employees are provided with information and training in accordance with paragraph (h) of this section (except for the location and availability of the written hazard communication program under paragraph (h)(2)(iii) of this section), to the extent necessary to protect them in the event of a spill or leak of a hazardous chemical from a sealed container." "29 CFR 1910.1200(c) Definitions. Use means to package, handle, react, emit, extract, generate as a byproduct, or transfer. Work area means a room or defined space in a workplace where hazardous chemicals are produced or used, and where employees are present. Workplace means an establishment, job site, or project, at one geographical location containing one or more work areas." The warehouse exemption appears very shaky ground to me. I would not trust the it to apply in this case. Notice they use examples of operations where the chemicals are never opened at that place of business. Your lab chemicals are not 'sealed'. Under normal conditions of use they are used in the lab, maybe not by the janitors, but they are used. Now we do not train our employees under haz com on all the individual chemicals on site, but on haz com in general, on msds, labels, and on the chemicals they will be working with. We do have the msds on site, and a program in place. Now at least the standard for labs state 'employers' not lab employees engaged in the lab use of haz chemicals. "29 CFR 1910.1450(a)(1) (1) This section shall apply to all employers engaged in the laboratory use of hazardous chemicals as defined below." however "29 CFR 1910.1450(a) (3) This section shall not apply to: (i) Uses of hazardous chemicals which do not meet the definition of laboratory use, and in such cases, the employer shall comply with the relevant standard in 29 CFR part 1910, subpart Z, even if such use occurs in a laboratory." So I would think if I have any employee who is in a lab and around chemicals that are used as lab chemicals then the lab standard applies. If they use janitorial supplies or paint or epoxies for the repair of the building, etc. and it doesn't fit the definition of laboratory use then haz com applies to those chemicals. However, I am not as well versed in the application of the lab standard vs haz com as some of the other list members are and I have seen some excellent replies to this issue. "29 CFR 1910.1450(b) (b) Definitions- Laboratory use of hazardous chemicals means handling or use of such chemicals in which all of the following conditions are met: (i) Chemical manipulations are carried out on a "laboratory scale;" (ii) Multiple chemical procedures or chemicals are used; (iii) The procedures involved are not part of a production process, nor in any way simulate a production process; and (iv) "Protective laboratory practices and equipment" are available and in common use to minimize the potential for employee exposure to hazardous chemicals. Employee means an individual employed in a laboratory workplace who may be exposed to hazardous chemicals in the course of his or her assignments." Rebecca Levins EH&S Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Schultz [SMTP:william_schultz@DETRICK.ARMY.MIL] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 2:38 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? My interpretation on this: The HAZCOM Standard does not require a chemical inventory. The word inventory does not exist in the regulation. The regulation does require a listing of chemicals present in the work place. There is not even a requirement to list the work areas where the chemicals are present. The Lab Standard does not require a listing of chemicals. The HAZCOM standard applies to any chemical which is known to be present in the workplace in such a manner that employees may be exposed under normal conditions of use or in a foreseeable emergency. If your laboratory chemicals are kept in closed containers there should be no exposure of non laboratory employees such as custodial staff under normal conditions of use since they do not use the chemicals. When maintenance personnel are performing repairs or preventive maintenance functions in a laboratory no procedures should be performed that could expose them to chemicals. By following these two simple steps the chemicals in the laboratory are excluded from the HAZCOM standard and therefore a list of them need not be maintained. If the chemicals in the laboratory are not being used and are properly stored (in closed/sealed containers) there should be no need for PPE for the above mentioned employees. This does not relieve you of the responsibility to train the above mentioned employees of the hazards of the chemicals that they may routinely use in the performance of their custodial or maintenance procedures or PPE required for use of these chemicals. Under HAZCOM these employees do need training to the extent necessary to protect them in the event of a spill or leak of a hazardous chemical present in the area (I once had a plumber knock a bottle of formaldehyde to the floor while working in a laboratory). That is simple to do by instituting a policy that in the event of a spill or leak of a chemical from a container or an unknown odor in an area where chemicals are present the employee will immediately leave the area and contact safety personnel. I consider the situation of the above mentioned employees similar to that of employees who work in a warehouse full of hazardous chemicals where the employees only handle chemicals in sealed containers which are not opened under normal conditions of use. Under these conditions paragraph (h)(2)(iii) of the regulation does not apply. In other words the employee does not have to be informed of the location and availability of the written hazard communication program, including the required list(s) of hazardous chemicals, and material safety data sheets required by this section. This does not remove the responsibility for MSDSs' for the chemicals that the custodial of maintenance personnel would use in performing their duties. This only relieves the responsibility for providing MSDSs' for the chemicals stored in the laboratory where they are performing their duties. Thanks for the stimulation. Bill Schultz ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________ ________ Subject: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? Author: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List at Internet-Mail Date: 3/3/99 5:12 PM .for example? If an company employee or contractor's employee is performing non-lab work in a chemical lab, say electrical work on the hood, or ductwork for a new hood in existing facilities, or plumbers putting in a new sink.... or the custodial staff sweeping and emptying wastebaskets? What if this employee asks to see the chemical inventory (which the Lab Standard does not require) or the MSDSs for everything (which the Lab Standard does not require)? Linda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:04:44 -0700 From: Sharyn Bake Subject: Re: flam gas expansion ratios? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi Tony, I have never seen of your reference but then, it appears you live in New Zealand. However, I will stand corrected, if necessary. I was writing from memory last night well past bedtime and I may have erred in some of the gas expansion ratios. Others can look at their references and decide who is correct. In any case, it is not terribly significant when one is talking about expansion ratios if one knows that all of these gases can create hazards some distance from a spill. In addition to other information, of course, one would want instruments which measured the LFL for the flammable gases and O2 sensing equipment. For example, if one was approaching within 20% of the LFL , one would be prudent to get the h--- out of the area. When one is concerned about population exposure, prudence and general guidelines published here in the states usually should be invoked to remove people at risk from the area. These generic guidelines are found in the U.S. DOT Emergency Response Guidebook and in other publications. These guidelines are founded in part on a number of tragic accidents in the U.S. in years past where the concept of expansion ratio was ignored or perhaps not even understood at the time of the accident. In other words, it is more the principle of high expansion ratios that one needs to know about and teach. The exact ratio is not necessary to know for emergency response efforts. so, weather it is 270 for LPG or what I wrote is not really the issue. The area must be evacuated and all ignition sources removed or prevented, if possible. Sharyn Baker just my opinion > ---------- > From: Tony Haggerty > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Thursday, March 4, 1999 3:34 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: flam gas expansion ratios? > > Linda/Sharyn > Further Info on gas expansion ratios. > > I have a book called Properties of Technical gases produced by Liquid Gas > Equipment Ltd, Edinburgh, Scotland. They use a property called the > Condensing Ratio which gives the volume of liquid condensed in cubic > decimetres (litres) per cubic metre of gas (1000 litres) at NTP. > > Not all of the gases Sharyn quoted are in this book but there are others > for > future reference. Whilst some agree with her figures, others are vastly > different. > > LPG I quoted yesterday as ~270:1 and this is confirmed. Methane I have as > 1244:1 which is approximately twice your figure > > You or Sharyn may wish to continue this discussion off forum > > Regards > Tony Haggerty > techton@ihug.co.nz > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:56:34 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Subject: Fw: Freedom of Information Act Request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We received this request from Dan Cronin of the American Bureau of Shipping. They are searching for auto-ignition temps for the list of compounds below. This is a bit our of our area... can anyone direct them to a good source? Thanks Marc Neuffer SafetyInfo.Com ( I have truncated his original MSG) -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Cronin The chemicals for which we need the auto-ignition temperature are listed below. These names are taken from The International Code for the Construction and Equipment of Ships Carrying Dangerous Chemicals in Bulk (IBC Code) which is published by the International Maritime Organization. We greatly appreciate your assistance in this matter Alkyl(C3-C4) Benzenes Alkanes(C6-C9) Alkyl acrylate-vinylpyridine copolymer in toluene n-Butyl propionate m-Chlorotoluene o-Chlorotoluene Cycloheptane 2-Ethoxyethyl acetate Ethyl amyl ketone Ethyl 3-ethoxypropionate Ethylcyclohexane Ethylene glycol monoalkyl ethers Heptanol (all isomers) (q) Hexyl acetate Long-chain polyetheramine in aromatic solvent Methyl butyrate Methyl heptyl ketone 2-Methyl-2-hydroxy-3-butyne Methylcyclohexane Nitropropane (60%)/Nitroethane (40%) mixture Nonene (all isomers) Noxious liquid, F.,(10), n.o.s., S.T. 3, Cat. A Noxious liquid, F.,(16), n.o.s., S.T. 3, Cat. C Olefin mixtures (C5-C7) 1,3-Pentadiene n-Pentyl propionate alpha-Pinene Polyalkyl (C18-C22) acrylate in xylene Polyolefinamine in alkyl (C2-C4) benzenes Polyolefinamine in aromatic solvent n-Propyl chloride Propylbenzene (all isomers) Propylene dimer Propylene trimer 1,3,5-Trioxane Best Regards, Dan Cronin American Bureau of Shipping > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:47:44 +1300 From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: flam gas expansion ratios? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharyn I sort of agree. For practical purposes, yep get the hell out. It was just that two of your figures were out by a factor of 2. One up and one down which can become significant. Don't be confused by the fact that I'm in New Zealand, the source I quoted came from Edinburgh in Scotland. I'm also familiar with the US DOT ERG Book. Did you know you can download it from the Canutec site? I was curious about your sources and wondered if I'd miscalculated but LPG was the give away. Its been quoted as 270:1 for at least 25 years. I'll try to post some more detail but it's Friday and I have to deliver Haz Mat training to Gold miners next week so it may be later rather than sooner. Cheers Tony ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:13:30 -0500 From: Bill Schultz Subject: Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1910.1450 (a)(3)(i) states that this section shall not apply to uses of hazardous chemicals which do not meet the definition of laboratory use. In the case of an electrician fixing a hood it is not necessary to even read the definition of laboratory use since the electrician is not using chemicals. I agree that the cabinet has to be made safe for the electrician to work in but that is an issue that is seperate from the Lab Standard. There may be many standards, and if nothing specific applies there is always the general duty clause, that OSHA could cite you for if the work was not performed safetly or in a safe environment but I don't believe the Lab Standard is one of them. What you are doing with the electrician is saying that the minute he walks into a laboratory he/she leaves the HAZCOM Standard behind and assumes the Lab Standard. Would anyone assume that under the HAZCOM Standard, at a time before the Lab Standard was written, that when an electrician walked into a laboratory he/she left all the requirements of the HAZCOM Standard behind except for sections (3)(i)(ii)(iii) and (iv), the only sections of the HAZCOM Standard that applies to laboratories. Bill Schultz ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? Author: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List at Internet-Mail Date: 3/4/99 2:17 PM ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:01:58 -0500 From: Bill Schultz Subject: Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thee list requirement is not OSHA's HazCom. It is EPA's SARA Right-to-Know under 40 CFR 370. "40 CFR 370.20(a) (a) General. The requirements of this subpart apply to any facility that is required to prepare or have available a material safety data sheet (MSDS) for a hazardous chemical under the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 and regulations promulgated under that Act." The list is an OSHA requirement. Inventory reporting is an EPA requirement. It is questionable as to whether or not a laboraotry falls under this regualtion based on the above cite. Under the Lab Standard we are not required to have available a material safety data sheet for hazardous chemicals. The wording in the regulation is, "Employers shall maintain any material safety data sheets that are received with incoming shipments of hazardous chemicals, and ensure that they are readily accessible to laboratory employees." Regardless of what good practice is the regulation does state that I must obtain an MSDS if did not arrive with the shipment. But beyond semantics there are two other exceptions to Subpart B-Reporting Requirements. 370.25 Inventory reporting states that I must supply an inventory report to certain agencies on hazardous chemicals present above the established threshold levels. If you do not have chemicals above the threshold level then you do not have to submit an inventory report. If you do not have to submit a report then why would you have to inventory? Keep in mind the section you quote is "Reporting Requirements" not "Inventory Requirements". There are over 2500 individual chemicals at our institute and I can tell you without an inventory that we have no chemcials in quantities large enough to require reporting. The second exception is that any substance used in a research laboratory is exempt from the reporting requirements of Title III of the Superfund Amendments and Reauthorization Act (SARA) of 1986, Section 312, Public Law 99-499. The exemption is listed under Section 311(e) of Title III. Since our laboratory is a research laboratory we are exempt. I am not arguing the pros' or cons' of inventories. There are many situations where an inventory is beneficial regardless of what the regulations say. But there are also many situations where an inventory has no real benefit and in this situation one should not be maintained because a regulation that does not apply requires one. Bill Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:53:37 -0500 From: "Warren C. Pinches" Subject: Re: Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I concur. As I recall the genesis of the Lab Standard, it was created because in a lab environment that uses many chemicals, many of them only fleetingly, Hazcom was considered too inflexible. The Lab Standard was intended to relax some of the restrictions of Hazcom. This was considered an acceptable trade-off because lab personnel were presumed to be technically knowledgeable about chemicals and able to research chemical information on their own. Saying the Lab Standard applies to tradespeople seems to give them less, not more protection. I have read many CHPs; most contain general hazard information that parallels Hazcom, and then go on to discuss how to do lab procedures and *use* chemicals safely. There often isn't much in a CHP that would be useful to tradespeople. Mostly what they need to know in a lab is straight out of Hazcom -- how to recognize unexpected chemicals releases (generally spills), and what to do about it (a speedy exit). Warren C. Pinches Bill Schultz on 03/05/99 08:13:30 AM Please respond to LABSAFETY-L Discussion List To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU cc: (bcc: Warren Pinches) Subject: Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? 1910.1450 (a)(3)(i) states that this section shall not apply to uses of hazardous chemicals which do not meet the definition of laboratory use. In the case of an electrician fixing a hood it is not necessary to even read the definition of laboratory use since the electrician is not using chemicals. I agree that the cabinet has to be made safe for the electrician to work in but that is an issue that is seperate from the Lab Standard. There may be many standards, and if nothing specific applies there is always the general duty clause, that OSHA could cite you for if the work was not performed safetly or in a safe environment but I don't believe the Lab Standard is one of them. What you are doing with the electrician is saying that the minute he walks into a laboratory he/she leaves the HAZCOM Standard behind and assumes the Lab Standard. Would anyone assume that under the HAZCOM Standard, at a time before the Lab Standard was written, that when an electrician walked into a laboratory he/she left all the requirements of the HAZCOM Standard behind except for sections (3)(i)(ii)(iii) and (iv), the only sections of the HAZCOM Standard that applies to laboratories. Bill Schultz ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? Author: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List at Internet-Mail Date: 3/4/99 2:17 PM ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:39:09 -0500 From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: OSHA Training Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have not taken the course but I would be interested in more info on it and others. Can you point me in that direction. Thanks, Janeen. ***************** Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:16:27 -0700 From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Consider this: The preamble to 1910.1450 FR vol 55 no.21, January 31, 1990 page 3315 states: "The final standard defines employee as an individual employed in a laboratory workplace who may be exposed to hazardous chemicals in the course of his or her assignments. Such individuals may actually work in the laboratory or because of their work assignments may be required to enter a laboratory where potential exposures may occur. In the latter category, OSHA considers maintenance and custodial personnel as meeting the definition of employee." I agree that the examples of fume hood/duct residues or floor contamination do not meet the intent of laboratory use, but I remain convinced the lab standard does apply to the electrician working in the lab considering what the preamble states. Ben > ---------- > From: Warren C. Pinches[SMTP:Warren_Pinches@PRAXAIR.COM] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 7:53 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing > the hood? > > I concur. As I recall the genesis of the Lab Standard, it was created > because in a lab environment that uses many chemicals, many of them > only > fleetingly, Hazcom was considered too inflexible. The Lab Standard > was > intended to relax some of the restrictions of Hazcom. This was > considered > an acceptable trade-off because lab personnel were presumed to be > technically knowledgeable about chemicals and able to research > chemical > information on their own. Saying the Lab Standard applies to > tradespeople > seems to give them less, not more protection. > > I have read many CHPs; most contain general hazard information that > parallels Hazcom, and then go on to discuss how to do lab procedures > and > *use* chemicals safely. There often isn't much in a CHP that would be > useful to tradespeople. Mostly what they need to know in a lab is > straight > out of Hazcom -- how to recognize unexpected chemicals releases > (generally > spills), and what to do about it (a speedy exit). > > Warren C. Pinches > Bill Schultz on 03/05/99 08:13:30 > AM > > Please respond to LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > cc: (bcc: Warren Pinches) > Subject: Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? > 1910.1450 (a)(3)(i) states that this section shall not apply to uses > of > hazardous chemicals which do not meet the definition of laboratory > use. > > In the case of an electrician fixing a hood it is not necessary to > even > read > the definition of laboratory use since the electrician is not using > chemicals. > > I agree that the cabinet has to be made safe for the electrician to > work > in but > that is an issue that is seperate from the Lab Standard. There may > be > many > standards, and if nothing specific applies there is always the > general > duty > clause, that OSHA could cite you for if the work was not performed > safetly > or > in a safe environment but I don't believe the Lab Standard is one of > them. > > What you are doing with the electrician is saying that the minute he > walks > into > a laboratory he/she leaves the HAZCOM Standard behind and assumes the > Lab > Standard. Would anyone assume that under the HAZCOM Standard, at a > time > before > the Lab Standard was written, that when an electrician walked into a > laboratory > he/she left all the requirements of the HAZCOM Standard behind except > for > sections (3)(i)(ii)(iii) and (iv), the only sections of the HAZCOM > Standard > that applies to laboratories. > > Bill Schultz > ______________________________ Reply Separator > _________________________________ > Subject: Re: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? > Author: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List at > Internet-Mail > Date: 3/4/99 2:17 PM > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:01:18 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Re: Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Two areas I think are worthy of mention, since 40 CFR 20 was cited. First, in the definitions found at 40 CFR 370.2, "Hazardous Chemical...does not include...Any substance to the extent it is used in a research laboratory or a hospital or other medical facility under the direct supervision of a technically qualified individual". Of course this exclusion doesn't cover chemicals used in support areas like boiler rooms, janitor closets, etc. Second, there are thresholds for reporting under EPA regs implementing sections 311 and 312 of EPCRA (SARA Title III). See 40 CFR 370.20 (b)(1), (2) and (3). Unless requested, you do not need to submit MSDS nor a chemical inventory (Tier I or II) unless you have at least 500 pounds or the TPQ (whichever is less) of any Extremely Hazardous Substance (see list at 40 CFR 355, Appendix A) OR more than 10,000 pounds of any other chemical covered under OSHA regs. This final threshold was published in the Federal Register on 07/26/90 (55 FR 30632 and following). The original intent was to lower the thresholds to zero eventually, but EPA realized how overwhelmed they would be with info. on substances posing very little real hazard to emergency responders or the surrounding communities. That said, our LEPC has passed regulations requiring floor plans and inventories be reported to them under a local regulation of their own. And those same regs do apply to lab use of chemicals, but we (certain H&S types from the High Tech Council of Maryland) were able to get some special and appropriate treatment for labs after many long meetings with them. I could go on and on, but the above addresses the issues raised fairly well. NOT to brag, but I try to keep up with SARA requirements as I am the Governor's appointee representing "High Technology Business" on our LEPC. If anyone knows of ANY error in or revision to what I just quoted please let me know. Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:37:09 -0500 From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ***************** Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. >>> Bill Schultz - 3/4/99 3:38 PM >>> My interpretation on this: >>>snip If your laboratory chemicals are kept in closed containers there should be no exposure of non laboratory employees such as custodial staff under normal conditions of use since they do not use the chemicals. When maintenance personnel are performing repairs or preventive maintenance functions in a laboratory no procedures should be performed that could expose them to chemicals. By following these two simple steps the chemicals in the laboratory are excluded from the HAZCOM standard and therefore a list of them need not be maintained. While we may not have to maintain MSDS's in the labs, and we may not have to conduct lab safety training to non lab employees, what should the prudent person do? We had a situation in our new lab building where the head of housekeeping instructed the housekeepers to apply polish to the bench tops in the chem labs every night. The housekeepers were unaware of possible chemical contamination on these surfaces. Granted, they should be cleaned up at the end of the day but we are talking students, lots of students and they can be real pigs in lab. It is our job to train them in good lab practices and chemical hygiene but there is still a very high risk of contamination in these labs. Housekeepers need to be trained so they are aware and know what to look for. The flip side is, if the lab is a mess on a particular night, I find out about it the next day and can correct the situation right away. Housekeepers are not blamed for not doing their job and none is put in undo jeopar! dy in these teaching environments. Keeping MSDS's in the labs has proven to be a valuable teaching tool for students as well as employees. Professors and researchers use them as a reference material as well. I think the benefits of keeping these on hand for chemicals that are being used in the lab in question is just a good idea, regardless of which reg will be invoked. >>>snip If the chemicals in the laboratory are not being used and are properly stored (in closed/sealed containers) there should be no need for PPE for the above mentioned employees. Again, we are assuming that no lab activities are taking place when these nonlab folks enter. This is not always the case. We have had cases where maintenance folks needed to get into a lab area while lab was going on. They need to know that if class is going on, they need to wear the PPE all the students and instructors are wearing. They need to know that the instructor and lab coordinator must be told of their activities in lab areas prior to work beginning. These all sound easy enough, but trust me, this does not always happen. We had an electrician shut down ventilation in a lab during class because he needed to replace some lights in an adjacent office area. He wasn't in the lab but he sure did impact the safety of the area. That kinda stuff doesn't happen now because they receive training to point out the unforseen impact they could have on lab areas. >>>>snip (I once had a plumber knock a bottle of formaldehyde to the floor while working in a laboratory). That is simple to do by instituting a policy that in the event of a spill or leak of a chemical from a container or an unknown odor in an area where chemicals are present the employee will immediately leave the area and contact safety personnel. Having policies in place such as the one you mention above is great but you need to train to it or it is useless. I find the acceptance of such policies is greater when they are accompanied by explanations. Did your plumber understand that Formaldehyde could evaporate and create an atmosphere immediately life threatening? Anyone working in the lab must have a healthy respect for chemical safety in my opinion. I must say that my educational endeavors here have been greatly appreciated by both the maintenance folks and the housekeepers as well as the administrative types in charge of these departments. I started by training the two housekeepers working in my labs nights and it has grown into a presentation for all housekeeping and maintenance folks at the university. Yes it takes some time but the benefits to the employer far exceed the cost for time in training. For what its worth, Janeen. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:07:17 -0800 From: Nick Spare Subject: CHP/HC in general MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I realize that this is just a pipe dream, but wouldn't it be wonderful if politicians and lawyers could just learn how to write in English (or whatever the audience's native language is) rather than legalese. Then we could spend more time applying the rules rather than discussing interpretations of them!! Editorial over. (These are absolutely my views and should not be viewed any other way etc. etc. etc.) Nick Spare Pilot Chemical Co. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:16:51 -0600 From: EH&S Compliance Subject: Re: Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? Bill, You are right. I was not saying, though, that the SARA applied to labs. That was the only place I remembered an inventory being needed, not under Haz Com and did not state it clearly. (But would have been wrong anyway, since it is in Haz Com.) Most of our facilities fall under the Community Right to Know law and because of it we deal with inventories. Since the reports were due March 1st it was very fresh in my mind. I personally don't believe 40 CFR 370.20 applies to labs. At least that is what I understand, have been taught and do. However, some states do have laws that are more stringent. In New York, Indiana and Texas we don't report our lab chemicals or waste on the Tier II; they follow the federal regulations. In California, we report for the lab and include waste. Their thresholds are also quite a bit lower (200ft3, 55gal, 500lbs) and happen to capture our lab gas and it seems like everything else on-site (big pain). So with your encouragement, I went looking in the Haz Com once again and found the requirement for inventories in the section for Written Hazard Communication Program 1910.1200(e). I also agree that it should be a judgement decision based on safety (and other considerations) as to keep an inventory or not if there is not a regulation for it. Rebecca Levins EH&S Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Schultz [SMTP:william_schultz@DETRICK.ARMY.MIL] Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 8:02 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? Thee list requirement is not OSHA's HazCom. It is EPA's SARA Right-to-Know under 40 CFR 370. "40 CFR 370.20(a) (a) General. The requirements of this subpart apply to any facility that is required to prepare or have available a material safety data sheet (MSDS) for a hazardous chemical under the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 and regulations promulgated under that Act." The list is an OSHA requirement. Inventory reporting is an EPA requirement. It is questionable as to whether or not a laboraotry falls under this regualtion based on the above cite. Under the Lab Standard we are not required to have available a material safety data sheet for hazardous chemicals. The wording in the regulation is, "Employers shall maintain any material safety data sheets that are received with incoming shipments of hazardous chemicals, and ensure that they are readily accessible to laboratory employees." Regardless of what good practice is the regulation does state that I must obtain an MSDS if did not arrive with the shipment. But beyond semantics there are two other exceptions to Subpart B-Reporting Requirements. 370.25 Inventory reporting states that I must supply an inventory report to certain agencies on hazardous chemicals present above the established threshold levels. If you do not have chemicals above the threshold level then you do not have to submit an inventory report. If you do not have to submit a report then why would you have to inventory? Keep in mind the section you quote is "Reporting Requirements" not "Inventory Requirements". There are over 2500 individual chemicals at our institute and I can tell you without an inventory that we have no chemcials in quantities large enough to require reporting. The second exception is that any substance used in a research laboratory is exempt from the reporting requirements of Title III of the Superfund Amendments and Reauthorization Act (SARA) of 1986, Section 312, Public Law 99-499. The exemption is listed under Section 311(e) of Title III. Since our laboratory is a research laboratory we are exempt. I am not arguing the pros' or cons' of inventories. There are many situations where an inventory is beneficial regardless of what the regulations say. But there are also many situations where an inventory has no real benefit and in this situation one should not be maintained because a regulation that does not apply requires one. Bill Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:28:07 -0600 Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Dave Peterson Subject: Re: auto-ignition temperatures Comments: To: Daniel Cronin Subject: Time: 10:13 AM OFFICE MEMO Re: auto-ignition temperaturesDate: 3/5/99 Daniel, Someone posted your request for the subject information on the National Association of Chemical Hygiene Officers listsever (NACHO). One reference that I have that lists many of the chemicals you requested (but not all) is Lange's Handbook of Chemistry by John A. Dean (pages 5.135-5.141), fourteenth edition, ISBN 0-07-016194-1. This reference also recommends looking for additional compounds in National Fire Protection Association, Fire Protection Handbook, 14th ed., 1976. Hope this helps. David P. Peterson Environment, Safety & Health Coordinator Environmental Research Division Argonne National Laboratory 9700 S. Cass Avenue Argonne, IL 60439 dppeterson@anl.gov ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:48:06 -0600 From: Erik Talley Subject: List Open Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain LabSafety-L List Subscribers: I accidentally used a command on the list which "locked" it so the list has been down. It is unlocked now so everything should be restored to normal. Sorry for the inconvenience... Erik ____________________________________ Erik Talley, Assistant Director Center for Environmental Health and Safety Southern Illinois University erik@cehs.siu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:34:53 -0500 From: Bill Schultz Subject: Re[4]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the h MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are right the wording of 29 CFR 1910.1450 states under definitions, "Employee means an individual employed in a laboratory workplace who may be exposed to hazardous chemicals in the course of his or her assignment." The wording of 29 CFR 1910 states under definitions, "Employee means a worker who may be exposed to hazardous chemicals under normal operating conditions or in foreseeable emergencies. Workers such as office workers or bank tellers who encounter hazardous chemicals only in non-routine, isolated instances are not covered." They both say basically the same thing. At least under the HAZCOM regulation you know that you only have to cover people who may be exposed under normal operating conditions or foreseeable emergencies. You are even given examples of people who do not fall under the regulation such as office workers. If you set up your program based on the definition of an employee under the Lab Standard rather than who it applies to then you must include everyone in the building including office workers. And since the regulation requires you to inform the employees of the signs and symptoms of exposure to the chemicals they may be exposed to as well as PEL and TLVs' that becomes quite a task based on the assumption that they may be exposed to any chemical in the building. And the information will be given to people who probably will not understand it and could care less. I think the key is the term exposure. I do not consider being in a room full of chemicals exposure. And with proper policies in place the only potential exposure would be a unforeseeable accident. In our institute, administrative employees who do not work with chemicals are informed that all chemical work is performed inside laboratories in which the air pressure inside the laboratory is negative to the outside so there is no escape of fumes from the laboratories. The only potential for exposure is the unlikely event that someone transporting a chemical between laboratories drops it in the hall while they are present. In this instance they are to leave the area and notify Safety. They are required to sign a document stating that they have been given this information. Employees who do not work with chemicals under the definition of "laboratory use" but may be exposed to solvents, cleaning agents, etc. receive HAZCOM training. They are required to adhere to the HCP. They are taught how to interpret MSDSs' and to deal with the limited quantity of chemicals that they may use while performing their duties. They are not allowed to use chemicals that have not been approved by the CHO. If they are in a laboratory or a hallway and a chemical is spilled they are instructed to leave the area and notify Safety. They are required to sign a document that they have been given this training. Employees who work in the laboratories performing functions defined as laboratory use of chemicals are covered under the Lab Standard. They receive the required training under the Lab Standard. They are required to adhere to the CHP. They also are told to leave the lab in the event of a spill outside of a chemical fume hood and to notify Safety. They are required to sign a document that they have been given this training. It is probably impossible to get agreement on this issue without a written interpretation from OSHA, two written interpretations would probably not resolve the issue, but I believe if your program meets the intent of the law to protect employees based on their job duties you will be in a defensible position. That's it for me on this issue. I think I got overstimulated. Bill Schultz ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the h Author: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List at Internet-Mail Date: 3/5/99 8:16 AM Consider this: The preamble to 1910.1450 FR vol 55 no.21, January 31, 1990 page 3315 states: "The final standard defines employee as an individual employed in a laboratory workplace who may be exposed to hazardous chemicals in the course of his or her assignments. Such individuals may actually work in the laboratory or because of their work assignments may be required to enter a laboratory where potential exposures may occur. In the latter category, OSHA considers maintenance and custodial personnel as meeting the definition of employee." I agree that the examples of fume hood/duct residues or floor contamination do not meet the intent of laboratory use, but I remain convinced the lab standard does apply to the electrician working in the lab considering what the preamble states. Ben > Please respond to LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > cc: (bcc: Warren Pinches) > Subject: Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:40:03 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: CHP/HC - Wish OSHA would be clearer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I wonder if anyone from OSHA ever reads our stuff. It seems to me it would give them more confidence in the ability of intelligent people to develop programs that do what should be done if only OSHA provided easy to work with requirements. Bill Schultz's evaluation (overstimulated or not) was refreshing in its logic and simplicity. Thanks! Helen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:33:02 -0600 From: EH&S Compliance Subject: Re: Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? Statement of 40 CFR 320 looks great. Since you did so well in Maryland could you talk to the LA County Fire Department? :) Rebecca Levins EH&S Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 -----Original Message----- From: Norman, Randy [SMTP:RNorman@BIORELIANCE.COM] Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 9:01 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Re[2]: CHP/HC -- What about the electrician fixing the hood? Two areas I think are worthy of mention, since 40 CFR 20 was cited. That said, our LEPC has passed regulations requiring floor plans and inventories be reported to them under a local regulation of their own. And those same regs do apply to lab use of chemicals, but we (certain H&S types from the High Tech Council of Maryland) were able to get some special and appropriate treatment for labs after many long meetings with them. I could go on and on, but the above addresses the issues raised fairly well. NOT to brag, but I try to keep up with SARA requirements as I am the Governor's appointee representing "High Technology Business" on our LEPC. If anyone knows of ANY error in or revision to what I just quoted please let me know. Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:24:00 +1300 From: John Downey Subject: Re: flam gas expansion ratios? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Are there any physical chemists on the forum? I had a funny feeling that there should be a formula for predicting this property based on molecular size, bond lengths and strengths and 437 other abstruse parameters designed to trip dumb students. If anybody can come up with something, it would make a good exam question for someone and maybe help the rest of us in a practical way. John Downey Waitakere City Council > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Haggerty [SMTP:techton@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 11:34 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: flam gas expansion ratios? > > Linda/Sharyn > Further Info on gas expansion ratios. > > I have a book called Properties of Technical gases produced by Liquid Gas > Equipment Ltd, Edinburgh, Scotland. They use a property called the > Condensing Ratio which gives the volume of liquid condensed in cubic > decimetres (litres) per cubic metre of gas (1000 litres) at NTP. > > Not all of the gases Sharyn quoted are in this book but there are others > for > future reference. Whilst some agree with her figures, others are vastly > different. > > LPG I quoted yesterday as ~270:1 and this is confirmed. Methane I have as > 1244:1 which is approximately twice your figure > > You or Sharyn may wish to continue this discussion off forum > > Regards > Tony Haggerty > techton@ihug.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:17:28 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Subject: Humor & Safety Info News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gooood Morning! --- 8 March 1999 More Free Safety Info to save you Time & Money *********************************************************** QUOTE OF THE WEEK: Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams *********************************************************** NEW THIS WEEK ON SAFETY INFO.COM [SAFETY PROGRAMS] - 2 new programs added - Tool Safety & Fall Prevention [WEEKLY POSTER] - Only Authorized Employees May Operate Equipment [WEEKLY BRIEF] - Back Injury Prevention LOW PRICE FINDER] - Great Prices on Respirators!!! [DOT INFO] - 2 Items sent in by Roy Wallace - Hours of Service Tracker (Excel File) & Power Point Training Presentation "Safety Compliance & DOT HazMat" [EPA INFO] - You can now browse 75 Environmental Topics [COMPUTER STUFF] - New Section - 9 Safety Computer Programs you can Download or Execute on-line. [OSHA STANDARDS] - we now have the Top 100 OSHA Standards on-line - categorized & grouped by topic ********************************************************** Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'... till you can find a rock. ********************************************************** Now taking requests for Poster and Safety Brief Topics - let us know what you would like to see in the coming months. ********************************************************** Don't forget to register for the Free Software - New Winner & New Software title each month. ********************************************************** BUMPER STICKER: "The gene pool could use a little chlorine." ************************************************ Regards & Best Wishes Marc & Neil Safety Info.Com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:25:06 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Re: flam gas expansion ratios? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Are there any physical chemists on the forum? I had a funny feeling that there should be a formula for predicting this property based on molecular size, bond lengths and strengths and 437 other abstruse parameters designed to trip dumb students. If anybody can come up with something, it would make a good exam question for someone and maybe help the rest of us in a practical way. RESPONSE: (Not a Physical Chemist per se, but I did get an A in the course, so here goes:) The ideal gas law provides a rough estimate, but for real gases I prefer the van der Waals equation of state: [p+(n2a/v2)](v-nb) = RT Where (forgive if this seems really obvious): p = pressure, v = volume of gas, R= the gas constant, n= the number of moles, T= the absolute temperature (Kelvin) and a and b are substance-specific constants (which may be found in the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics and similar references). Just plug in the absolute temperature and pressure, and look up a and b for the substance you're evaluating and you can easily calculate the volume occupied by each mole of it. To convert this measure to an expansion factor, use the density of the liquid and molecular weight of the substance. I've spent too much time on this already, but the math is pretty straightforward once you've got the van der Waals equation and appropriate constants a and b. Yes I guess this IS P-Chem.! Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:07:26 -0600 From: Brian Olson Subject: JOB ANNOUNCEMENT: CSO/CHO Comments: To: SAFETY@LIST.UVM.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I received an error from the listserver that my first post did not take. I'll try again. Sorry if it posts twice: > This is a highly independent and rewarding position. If interested, or > know someone who is, have them contact me or our HR department at > hr@promega.com > ------------------------------------------------------- > Promega Corporation a world leading biotechnology company headquartered in > Madison WI is currently seeking the following individual to join us: > CHEMICAL SAFETY AND HYGIENE OFFICER > You will coordinate and maintain activities performed regularly in the > Environmental Health & Safety Department and focus on chemical hygiene > chemical safety product safety evaluation & MSDS production and hazard > communication. You will also set up and facilitate safety training; review > and update safety programs; and manage all duties related to chemical > processing/disposal (including waste identification and profiling) collect > store and distribute waste to an outside agent and maintain records and > create annual reports. > A B.S. or M.S. degree in Industrial Hygiene Physical Science or Life > Science which includes 12 credits in chemistry (including organic > chemistry) as well as additional credits in any combination of the > following courses: chemistry environmental health biology toxicology or > industrial hygiene is required. Four years' lab related experience; > knowledge of OSHA DNR IATA regulations; employee safety training > experience; and hands-on experience using air-sampling dosimetry > calibration and other industrial hygiene equipment preferred. > A background with international Safety regulation and ISO 9000 prior lab > experience and the demonstrated ability to use a PC (Word Excel and other > windows based programs) are preferred. For confidential consideration > please mail or e-mail your resume to: Promega Corporation Human Resources > 2800 Woods Hollow Rd Madison WI 53711. E-mail: hr@promega.com. EOE For > additional information please visit our website at http://www.promega.com > > Thanks, > Brian Olson > Manager, EHS > Promega Corporation > Madison, WI > Fax: 608-277-2677 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 01:46:00 -0600 From: EH&S Compliance Subject: Workshop on Compliance with Environmental Regulations in Academic I saw this on another list of mine and thought a few of you may be interested. Sorry about the crosspost if you have seen it already. Rebecca Levins EH&S Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 -------------- Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:41:24 -0500 From: Mary Liu Subject: Workshop on Compliance with Environmental Regulations in Academic Settings WHAT IS IT? A workshop for administration and EHS staff of New England colleges and universities. This one day workshop provides attendees with an enhanced understanding of regulations applying to universities and colleges and how these regulations are enforced. Available pollution prevention opportunities are also discussed. WHEN IS IT? Wednesday, March 24, 1999 WHERE IS IT? Harvard Medical School, Tosteson Medical Education Center, 260 Longwood Ave., Boston, MA. Limited on-site parking available. By public transportation: the MBTA Green "E" Line near the Longwood stop. WHAT WILL IT COST? $25/person, which includes continental breakfast, lunch, and break. CONFERENCE SPONSORS: US EPA, Harvard Medical School, Harvard School of Public Health QUESTIONS? Joan Jouzaitis of EPA (617-918-1846) would be glad to answer any questions you have about this event. Please contact her about accessibility requirements. The site is handicapped accessible. AGENDA: 7:30 Registration for Colleges/Universities within the Charles River Watershed 7:45 Charles River Watershed Status Report and Next Steps (A discussion for institutions within the Charles River Watershed area) 8:00 General Registration for Conference Attendees 8:45 Introduction/Welcome 9:15 Compliance: Historical Problems (Patterns of non-compliance and specific case studies) 10:30 Break 10:45 Regulations 101: A Brief History of Statutory Overview (RCRA, SPCC, UST and CAA with tips for meeting regulatory requirements) 12:00 Project XL: Background, Issues, and Next Steps 12:30 Lunch 1:15 Panel Discussion: The University Perspective on Environmental Compliance (A facilitated discussion with EHS personnel from private and state colleges and universities) 2:30 Auditing a Campus (Briefings on the Northeast Partnership for Environmental Technology Education's Green Campus Project; Mass. DEP's Clean State Initiative; Pfizer's University Laboratory SEP) 3:10 Closing Remarks and Discussion HOW TO REGISTER: Send $25 registration fee per attendee (checks payable to Harvard Medical School Campus Operations) by March 12 to Ms. Abby McGarry Administrative Manager Harvard Medical School Campus Operations 180 Longwood Ave. Boston, MA 02115 Attn: March 24 Conference Please include the following information: 1.) Name(s) 2.) College/University or other affiliation 3.) Address 4.) Phone number 5.) Fax number 6.) E-mail EPA's contractor this event, AEAI, will mail a confirmation letter to you, along with detailed directions. ------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:07:16 -0600 From: Brian Olson Subject: SURVEY RESULTS AVAILABLE: CONTACT ME! Comments: To: SAFETY@LIST.UVM.EDU, radsafe@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" FYI, this is being sent to the SAFETY, RADSAFE, LABSAFETY and BIOSAFETY mail-lists. In early February, I asked you to participate in a Safety CBT (Computer Based Training) survey. To those who participated, I THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME - a copy of the survey will automatically be sent out to you today (via email). Anyway, I mentioned that I would send out the results towards the end of the month. Thanks for your patience. To save bandwidth, (it is quite long) I am asking anyone that is interested in the results of the survey to send me an email directly (bolson@promega.com). I will email you the results. Thanks all! Brian Olson Manager, EHS Promega Corporation (biotech company) bolson@promega.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:25:36 -0500 From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Wash down of former acid storage cabinet. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, Anyone like to comment on how to rinse down and clean a standard labcasework cabinet which obviously stored acids of some sort in a former lablife. The lab is being renovated and our painters want to sand and repaint the cabinet. I have observed very small salt precipitates on parts of the cabinet. I have no knowledge about the types of acids formerly stored there and whther any perchloric may have resided there. Would you recommend anything more than than a saturating with watermist from a garden sprayer? Anyone ever deal with a circumstance like this? Would appreciate any suggestions/feedback. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:40:56 EDT From: Jennifer Reader Organization: Environmental Health and Safety Subject: Re: Wash down of former acid storage cabinet. Comments: To: Nick Pinizzotto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT water, soap, scrub brush, elbow grease. Jennifer Reader, B.S., M.S.P.H. Hazardous Materials Safety Officer Environmental Health and Safety University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1 Canada 519-824-4120 X3190 Fax 519-824-0364 e-Mail jennifer@ehs.uoguelph.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:36:01 -0800 From: Debbie Decker Subject: Re: Wash down of former acid storage cabinet. In-Reply-To: <34A791663B6@ehsnet.nw.uoguelph.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 At 03:40 PM 3/9/99 EDT, you wrote: >water, soap, scrub brush, elbow grease. > >Jennifer Reader, B.S., M.S.P.H. >Hazardous Materials Safety Officer >Environmental Health and Safety >University of Guelph I might add some baking soda to the mix. And a pair of gloves to keep "your hands soft and younger-looking" (I've been doing way too much data entry today!) Deb. Debbie Decker EH&S UCDavis (530)754-7964 dmdecker@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:44:12 -0500 Reply-To: Bob Burns From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Wash down of former acid storage cabinet. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unless you suggest perchloric acid, I'd go with the old favorite- soap and water, then rinse. Soap is basic enough to neutralize any traces of acids left behind. -----Original Message----- From: Nick Pinizzotto To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 3:27 PM Subject: Wash down of former acid storage cabinet. >Hi folks, > >Anyone like to comment on how to rinse down and clean a standard labcasework >cabinet which obviously stored acids of some sort in a former lablife. > >The lab is being renovated and our painters want to sand and repaint the >cabinet. I have observed very small salt precipitates on parts of the cabinet. >I have no knowledge about the types of acids formerly stored there and whther >any perchloric may have resided there. > >Would you recommend anything more than than a saturating with watermist from a >garden sprayer? Anyone ever deal with a circumstance like this? > >Would appreciate any suggestions/feedback. >Nick Pinizzotto >Environmental Health Officer >Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >Thomas Jefferson University >nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:02:45 -0500 From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: Wash down of former acid storage cabinet. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 In addition to the recommendations thus far, a quick dab with a wet strip of pH paper will tell you a little about the salt residues, and might guide you as to how well you are neutralizing things with your soap and baking soda. Since some people like to store all their "corrosives" together (despite our collective best efforts), the pH paper will also tip you off to the presence of NaOH, etc., which might call for some citric acid in lieu of baking soda. Don >Anyone like to comment on how to rinse down and clean a standard labcasework >cabinet which obviously stored acids of some sort in a former lablife. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College| Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:11:44 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Wash down of former acid storage cabinet. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all: I saw the following on the web http://www.prizim-inc.com/LSEMconference.htm Can anyone tell me about this conference? It is apparently annual and in "Professional Safety" magazine, it is billed as a conference that experts in Laboratory Safety convene at. I would like to know if anyone in this group has gone to these conferences. Are they good sources of information? Thanks! Helen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:42:03 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Re: Wash down of former acid storage cabinet. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 I haven't been to the conferences, but it's a pretty good newsletter. I believe the newsletter editor either subscribes to or monitors the Labsafety list: I guess we'll find out... JNR >http://www.prizim-inc.com/LSEMconference.htm > > >Can anyone tell me about this conference? It is apparently annual and in >"Professional Safety" magazine, it is billed as a conference that experts in >Laboratory Safety convene at. > >I would like to know if anyone in this group has gone to these conferences. >Are they good sources of information? Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:21:54 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Information Please! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all: I saw the following on the web http://www.prizim-inc.com/LSEMconference.htm Can anyone tell me about this conference? It is apparently annual and in "Professional Safety" magazine, it is billed as a conference that experts in Laboratory Safety convene at. I would like to know if anyone in this group has gone to these conferences. Are they good sources of information? Thanks! Helen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:24:13 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Info Please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have a real question about that since I didn't see NACHO or CCHO mentioned anywhere on the website. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Rubin [SMTP:jrubin@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 4:42 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Wash down of former acid storage cabinet. I haven't been to the conferences, but it's a pretty good newsletter. I believe the newsletter editor either subscribes to or monitors the Labsafety list: I guess we'll find out... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:39:45 -0500 From: "Thomas J. Shelley" Subject: Re: Information Please! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 >Hi all: > >I saw the following on the web > >http://www.prizim-inc.com/LSEMconference.htm > > >Can anyone tell me about this conference? It is apparently annual >and in "Professional Safety" magazine, it is billed as a conference that >experts in Laboratory Safety convene at. > >I would like to know if anyone in this group has gone to these >conferences. Are they good sources of information? Dear Helen and Colleagues--This is an excellent conference. I have been to the entire series of conferences and have given presentations and trainings for several years. I would highly recommend LS&EM '99 for laboatory EH&S staff who have not attended. Tom Shelley ********************************************************* Tom Shelley, Chemical Hygiene Officer, Cornell University Department of Environmental Health and Safety, 125 Humphreys Service Building, Ithaca, NY 14853. (607) 255-4288 tjs1@cornell.edu ****************************DISCLAIMER******************** The comments and views expressed in this communication are strictly my own and are not to be construed to officially represent those of my peers, supervisors or Cornell University. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:58:17 -0800 From: Ray Campbell Subject: Re: Wash down of former acid storage cabinet. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 I printed out the information as I am in Southern California near the AQMD. They offer a section by the EPA on lab status under section 112 of the CAAA. There is also a presentation by the AQMD on pollution prevention. This is a breakout session for industry, academia and government. In the afternoon, a session on AB 966 -laboratory waste handling. A discussion of the Environmental Management Guide for Small Laboratories follows. The session ends with room air distribution and health and safety concerns. The cost is $100.00. (50 for academia and government). I have not attended such a course, but I have attended seminars sponsored by the AQMD, with and without the EPA and they have been excellent. I plan to attend this one. Ray Campbell REA CCHO 310-257-1080 At 04:11 PM 3/9/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hi all: > >I saw the following on the web > >http://www.prizim-inc.com/LSEMconference.htm > > >Can anyone tell me about this conference? It is apparently annual and in >"Professional Safety" magazine, it is billed as a conference that experts in >Laboratory Safety convene at. > >I would like to know if anyone in this group has gone to these conferences. >Are they good sources of information? > >Thanks! > >Helen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:52:11 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Incentives Mime-Version: 1.0 Howdy, It's creativity time! We're about to embark on something I've wanted to do for more than year - go through a bunch of our lab buildings and systematically get rid of a bunch o' junk. We're creating a one-time streamlined procedure for large-scale equipment and chemical removal as part of the organization for our new School of Biological Sciences. The process will end up taking two months or so, but only a day or three for any lab group. The clean-out will require people to put aside packrat-ism as well as having many students (I assume) do the bulk of the work. Any suggestions for incentives that can lighten this up? Yes, I know that the joy of more and safer lab space should be incentive enough, but these are life-sciences faculty and students. Here're a few things I already have in mind: * Pizza and beer (not in the labs, of course) for students doing the dirty work * Awards for: - most chemical containers tagged for disposal (maybe provide a small raffle with entries proportional to number of chem disposal tags?) - largest single item removed - largest space (volume or surface area) "liberated" (absolute and relative categories) - most unusual item disposed of - greatest age disparity between equipment and person getting rid of it You get the idea. Suggestions welcome, just keep 'em legal (but not necessarily tasteful)... Onward, JNR Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:35:45 -0800 From: Neal Langerman Subject: Re: Wash down of former acid storage cabinet. Mime-Version: 1.0 Purchase some "Liquid Acid Neutralizer" from JV Mfg in Green Bay, Lab Safety, or JT Baker and spray the area with it. Rinse with water, test with pH paper, Repeat until clean. Neal At 03:25 PM 3/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi folks, > >Anyone like to comment on how to rinse down and clean a standard labcasework >cabinet which obviously stored acids of some sort in a former lablife. > >The lab is being renovated and our painters want to sand and repaint the >cabinet. I have observed very small salt precipitates on parts of the cabinet. >I have no knowledge about the types of acids formerly stored there and whther >any perchloric may have resided there. > >Would you recommend anything more than than a saturating with watermist from a >garden sprayer? Anyone ever deal with a circumstance like this? > >Would appreciate any suggestions/feedback. >Nick Pinizzotto >Environmental Health Officer >Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >Thomas Jefferson University >nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >215-503-5853 ************************************************************* NEAL LANGERMAN chemsaf@ix.netcom.com ADVANCED CHEMICAL SAFETY 8909 Complex Drive San Diego CA 92123-1418 619 874 5577 (phone) 619 874 8239 (FAX) 619 990 4908 (cellular) visit our homepage: http://www.chemical-safety.com ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:50:25 EST From: Gilbert Smith Subject: Re: Info Please Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/9/99 6:30:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, hbgerhard@MEDLOGIC.COM writes: > I have a real question about that since I didn't see NACHO or CCHO mentioned > anywhere on the website. > NRCC is linked to the "LS&EM- the Conference" web page through "LS& EM Supporters." See: LS&EM - The Conference As a matter of fact, the first NRCC-CHO certification exam was given at the LS&EM Conference in San Diego in 1997. The CHO exam was also given at the Conference in 1998, and is scheduled for the 1999 Conference. NACHO met informally at the 1998 Conference. Gilbert Smith NRCC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:09:27 -0500 From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: Information Please! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 If your lab is chemical, I would go instead to the ACS meetings, the next one of which is in Anaheim about 3/21/99. For geology, biology and various misc. sciences, I think you might find much of interest at LSEM. A much smaller group, a few select exhibits, and good chances to compare notes. Jim Kaufman, of this list, usually runs a workshop at LSEM and at ACS meetings. Generally the CHO workshops and exams might be given at both also. One is sponsored by a scientific society, the other by a for profit group--that is not to denigrate the latter. Mary Ann At 04:21 PM 3/9/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hi all: > >I saw the following on the web > >http://www.prizim-inc.com/LSEMconference.htm > > >Can anyone tell me about this conference? It is apparently annual >and in "Professional Safety" magazine, it is billed as a conference that >experts in Laboratory Safety convene at. > >I would like to know if anyone in this group has gone to these >conferences. Are they good sources of information? > >Thanks! > >Helen > Mary Ann Solstad, CIH 4 A's of Safety SOLSTAD Health & Safety Evaluations Attitude 16 Pequot Rd, Marblehead, MA 01945 Awareness 781-631-4748 tel, 781-631-1832 FAX Automatic Application Authority Past Chair, DivCHAS, ACS msolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:39:24 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Info Please Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/9/99 6:30:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, hbgerhard@MEDLOGIC.COM writes: << I have a real question about that since I didn't see NACHO or CCHO mentioned anywhere on the website. >> Hi NACHOs, For the past few years, LSW has been a sponsor of LS&EM, offered a one-day seminar, had our first public meeting there last year (50 attended), RJG Associates offered the CHO exam prep course, and NRCC gave the CHO exam. All this will happen again this July in Philly. ... Jim Kaufman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:40:39 +0000 From: Nigel McCarter Subject: Rhodamine Mime-Version: 1.0 A science lab I deal with has had a spill of Rhodamine dye in a dangerous goods store. Rhodamine is flurescent pink dye used to trace water flows in hydrological work. It is not hazardous, but visible at very low concentrations. Most of the spill has been cleaned up, and we are left with very red concrete contained within a bund. Has anyone any bright ideas for neutralising the dye in situ? Nigel Nigel McCarter Safety Management and Information Services Ltd Box 23 019 Hamilton New Zealand Phone (64) 7 858 2429 Fax (64) 7 858 2689 Mobile 021 212 4901 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:27:54 -0300 From: "Aziz M. Abu-khalaf" Subject: information Mime-Version: 1.0 Hi everybody We need to make available the following safety items in our department: Sound level meter Video tapes on safety I would appreciate giving information on the best of these, or the one you are using in safety field. Many thanks. Aziz. **************************************************************************** ******* Aziz M. Abu-Khalaf ***** Tel: 00966 1 4676894 Chemical Engineering Department ***** Fax: 00966 1 4678770 King Saud University ***** E-mail: amkhalaf@ksu.edu.sa PO Box 800 ***** Riyadh 11421, Saudi Arabia ***** **************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 05:37:17 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Your Favorite Lab Safety Videos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi NACHOs, That recent question about videos made me thinks it might be good to have the list on our web site as a FAQ. So, please send me a copy of your reply or a list of your favorites so that I can compile the list and post it here and on the web site. Please include the title, length, year of release, source, the appropriate audience, and any editorial comments. Thanks, .... Jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:52:47 -0600 From: Ward R Phifer Subject: Re: Information Please! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Helen - The Laboratory Safety & Environmental Management Conference is an excellent forum for exchange among laboratory safety professionals. I have attended 4 or 5 of them and have always been impressed with the professionalism and organization of Prizim in putting together a good, well attended program. Highly recommended! Russ Phifer On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:21:54 -0700 "Helen B. Gerhard" writes: >Hi all: > >I saw the following on the web > >http://www.prizim-inc.com/LSEMconference.htm > > >Can anyone tell me about this conference? It is apparently >annual >and in "Professional Safety" magazine, it is billed as a conference >that >experts in Laboratory Safety convene at. > >I would like to know if anyone in this group has gone to >these >conferences. Are they good sources of information? > >Thanks! > >Helen > Russell Phifer WCC Environmental LLC PO Box 39, 439 S. Bolmar Street, West Chester, PA 19381 610-696-9220 / 610-344-7519 fax envasset@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:18:48 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Subject: ANSI Z590 - My Letter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear fellow list members, the new proposed ANSI Standard regarding "Safety Professionals" has caused quite a stir in the safety community. For more info, visit the National Safety Council web site http://www.nsc.org and click on the Z590 link at the top of the page to get their take in the issue. This will affect almost every business in the US, down the road, when the government requires companies to have a "Safety Professional" as defined by the proposed standard. Below are excerpts from my letter to Tim Fisher (ASSE) Dear Mr. Fisher: I realize that engineers, being a 3rd generation engineer myself, have an instinctive need to quantify the world and wrap things up in nicely defined terms - that's the nature of engineering. However, safety, in the applied sense, for a business, is a staff position that generally falls under the Human Resources hat. In your organization's attempt at "title protection" you have provided a too narrow definition and self supporting qualification requirement that precludes other certifying criteria of equal value to companies. The current wording effectively eliminates "certification" through other established and historic avenues. Your organization is sounding more and more like a Labor Union attempting to use the government to create an environment which will increase your membership and influence in the profession. It takes no special "qualification" to read and understand safety standards and regulations. The art and the "professionalism" is in the successful application of these in an industrial or business environment. In my experience, a great, and possibly major, part of the effort required of Safety Managers is in the effective "selling" of safety. Additionally, application of "safety" in the world of business involves changing employees (and management's) behaviors and value systems. So perhaps, to be considered a true safety professional, we should all be certified sales people and psychologists. -end excerpt- Regards & Best Wishes Marc Neuffer www.safetyinfo.com (256)840-9530 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:01:26 +0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Herman curtis Subject: Rhodamine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Just get some more rhodamine and stain the whole area. The red color will go along with the "dangerous goods";-) Herman Curtis Department of Physical Science Cameron University 2800 W Gore Blvd Lawton, OK 73505 hermanc@cameron.edu (580)591-8007 ,(580)581-2323 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:55:09 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: ANSI Z590 - Except from Another Letter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi All: I have also sent a letter. I would like to get a copy of the Draft ANSI standard that ASSE has authored. As with the National Safety Council (http://www.nsc.org/osh/z590.htm ) , I am very concerned with the movements being made to "codify" terminology. I do understand the need to assure that certain titles carry some standard information with them. However, having entered the safety profession from a B.S. Chemistry background rather than an engineering or safety curriculum, I am feel that only recognizing the latter is not wise. Additionally, there are many excellent educational opportunities which promote safety which (if NSC's reading of the draft is true) would not be valued or recognized by this ANSI standard. As our society moves towards integration of functional areas (e.g. QEH&S), as indicated by Lockheed-Martin's corporate strategy and the OSHA/EPA cooperation in government, this segmentation may potentially lead to problems for safety and environmental professionals. I believe that ASSE needs to create a collation among other safety groups to assure that we are not creating division rather than cooperation between safety professionals. The strategy that is being used begs the question "what is the real goal here?" I would be interested in working towards an integrated approach. Thanks! Helen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:27:08 -0800 From: Debbie Decker Subject: Re: Rhodamine In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990310184039.008288d0@pop.clear.net.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 At 06:40 PM 3/10/99 +0000, you wrote: >A science lab I deal with has had a spill of Rhodamine dye in a dangerous >goods store. Rhodamine is flurescent pink dye used to trace water flows in >hydrological work. It is not hazardous, but visible at very low >concentrations. >Most of the spill has been cleaned up, and we are left with very red >concrete contained within a bund. > >Has anyone any bright ideas for neutralising the dye in situ? Nigel: A small anecdote about rhodamine: During WWII, the explosives manufacturers dyed RDX pink with rhodamine so's the soldiers could tell the difference between the various types of det cord and explosives they were using. In this time frame (1940's), a one pound jar of rhodamine was dropped and broken on a loading dock of a manufacturer of RDX. When I spoke with this bunch in the 80's (about dyeing RDX with rhodamine - some things never change), one of their chemists related how the rainwater running off this dock was still pink, 40 years later. Good bloody luck, Nigel! I never was able to find anything that could get rhodamine off anything. Under some circumstances, it stained the stainless steel drying trays we used to dry the pink RDX! Rinsing one's hands in acetone would certainly lighten it up but then, that's not a really good idea for one's skin. If you come up with something, I'd be interested to know what you found. Cheers, Deb. Debbie Decker EH&S UCDavis (530)754-7964 dmdecker@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:39:44 -0400 From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: Incentives Mime-Version: 1.0 >* Awards for: >- most chemical containers tagged for disposal (maybe provide a small >raffle with entries proportional to number of chem disposal tags?) >- largest single item removed >- largest space (volume or surface area) "liberated" (absolute and relative >categories) >- most unusual item disposed of >- greatest age disparity between equipment and person getting rid of it > You've covered all the good ones. How 'bout a prize for the most hazrdous item disposed of? Also, consider slipping a few "prize tickets" or gold-painted peanuts or other such tokens in and among the more notorious rats nests as an incentive for people to root through their stuff. Turn in the token for a prize of some sort. Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:45:05 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Subject: Copy of ANSI Z590 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those who would like a copy of the ANSI Z590 Standard Send E-mail to tfisher@ansse.org with your mailing address .... also, it would be helpful if you asked them to post it on their site.. they may respond if they receive enough requests Regards Marc Neuffer www.safetyinfo.com -----Original Message----- From: Helen B. Gerhard To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 8:49 AM Subject: ANSI Z590 - Except from Another Letter >Hi All: > >I have also sent a letter. > >I would like to get a copy of the Draft ANSI standard that ASSE has >authored. As with the National Safety Council >(http://www.nsc.org/osh/z590.htm ) , I am >very concerned with the movements being made to "codify" terminology. > >I do understand the need to assure that certain titles carry some standard >information with them. However, having entered the safety profession from a >B.S. Chemistry background rather than an engineering or safety curriculum, I >am feel that only recognizing the latter is not wise. Additionally, there >are many excellent educational opportunities which promote safety which (if >NSC's reading of the draft is true) would not be valued or recognized by >this ANSI standard. > >As our society moves towards integration of functional areas (e.g. QEH&S), >as indicated by Lockheed-Martin's corporate strategy and the OSHA/EPA >cooperation in government, this segmentation may potentially lead to >problems for safety and environmental professionals. I believe that ASSE >needs to create a collation among other safety groups to assure that we are >not creating division rather than cooperation between safety professionals. >The strategy that is being used begs the question "what is the real goal >here?" > >I would be interested in working towards an integrated approach. > >Thanks! > >Helen > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:12:36 -0500 From: Mark Yanchisin Subject: Acrolein release and resulting questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greeting!! Does anyone have any thoughts on how long inhibited acrolein should be stored? Aldrich says 6 months, but couldn't answer if the inhibitor would loose it's potency after time. Also- anyone know what the odor threshold is? I have looked at 4 MSDSs and various fact sheets and references, but can't find anything about the odor threshold. What started this is that we had a 250 ml bottle blow-up. Actually it is more likely a cracking of the bottle from a slow pressure build up. The bottle cracked into bigger pieces and did not end up everywhere as small shards as it would have in explosion. I'm guessing that the acrolein polymerized, as the residue looked like a pile of semi-solid shaving cream with brown glass in it!!! The bottle broke in a refrigerator late at night. The lab group has a roving security/safety guard who goes through all labs nightly to look for potential problems. (All lab staff rotate this duty a week at a time. So they do rounds every night- all 365 of them a year!! What a concept!!) The grad student found the odor and initiated the response. Odor was throughout the 2nd floor of a 4 story building after the refrig door was opened. Building was closed over night (0300 to 0730) while it vented. Building reopened next morning with just the lab being closed. We did send 3 folks to the ER for a precautionary exam, but all were OK. We do not have any idea on how old the acrolein is. I have most of the label, but not enough to show the lot number, or I would call Aldrich to try to date it. Storage guidelines say to store under nitrogen, as it reacts with oxygen. I doubt this bottle was purged with N2 after use. It also reacts with light. It was not wrapped in foil, as light sensitive chemicals usually are in the lab, but it was in a dark refrig. Does anyone know if there a delay in the reaction to exposure to either light or oxygen or does it react on exposure? My concerns are to come up with guidelines for storage, handling etc.- so we can put together a "lessons learned" fact sheet for folks. Any input is appreciated!! I promise to post it here once I get it together!! Thanks in advance for any thoughts and info!! Mark Yanchisin Coordinator for Clinical and Lab Safety Programs University of Florida Env. Health and Safety PO Box 112190 Gainesville, FL 32611-2190 352-846-2550 (T) 352-392-7386 (F) Mark@ehs.ufl.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:29:09 -0500 From: "Walters.Douglas" Subject: Re: Acrolein release and resulting questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain There are several reported odor thresholds for acrolein ranging from 0.02-1.8 ppm, depending on the reference in the 1989 AIHA Odor Threshold book. Doug Walters > ---------- > From: Mark Yanchisin > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 3:12 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Acrolein release and resulting questions > > Greeting!! > > Does anyone have any thoughts on how long inhibited acrolein should be > stored? Aldrich says 6 months, but couldn't answer if the inhibitor would > loose it's potency after time. Also- anyone know what the odor threshold > is? I have looked at 4 MSDSs and various fact sheets and references, but > can't find anything about the odor threshold. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:38:25 -0400 From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: Acrolein release and resulting questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Also- anyone know what the odor threshold >is? I have looked at 4 MSDSs and various fact sheets and references, but >can't find anything about the odor threshold. The Laboratory Chemical Safety Summary (LCSSs) for acrolein says: " pungent, lacrimatory, intensely irritating odor detectable at 0.02 to 0.4 ppm" and indicates a vapor pressure of 210 mmHg at 20 °C . There is a swell list of LCSSs (as seen in Prudent Practices) at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute web site. There is a list of 150 or so common lab materials, each formatted a bit like an MSDS available at: http://www.hhmi.org/science/labsafe/lcss/tlisting.htm It also mentions that hydroquinone is a typically used inhibitor in the commercial product, and that it is possible to inadvertently lose the inhibitor by distilling the stuff. Check the LCSS for a bit more on reactivity/polymerization. Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:53:45 -0500 From: "Dr. Linda A. Swihart" Subject: Re: Copy of ANSI Z590 In-Reply-To: <00bb01be6b3f$44383ac0$4fc6e4d0@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 I emailed Tim Fisher and received an extremely swift and pleasant response. I had asked for an electronic version if it were possible, and offered to format it for web presentation (and put it somewhere, not necessarily LSW website, but I have other places too). He replied that he had put it in the snail mail to me, and that "We have tried electronic distribution before, and it was a disaster. The problem was making revisions/notes to the standard and then sending it on. At the end we had to respond to comments on standards we had not even written. We are sticking with the paper distribution. It costs more and is a hassle, but we do have a way to control some aspects of the standards integrity." Will let people know when it gets here and how easy it might be to share electronically -- with the understanding that it's a 'snapshot' of a possibly-fast-changing draft. (I could try scanning it but that's usually a terrible idea... of course it's been a while since I tried it and technology has improved...) Linda At 01:45 PM 3/10/99 -0800, you wrote: >For those who would like a copy of the ANSI Z590 Standard >Send E-mail to tfisher@ansse.org with your mailing address .... also, it >would be helpful if you asked them to post it on their site.. they may >respond if they receive enough requests > >Regards >Marc Neuffer >www.safetyinfo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:11:22 -0800 From: Nick Spare Subject: SO2 phase diagram MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Only a semi-safety related question, but I'll try you all out anyway. I need to do some pressure/temperature calculations for high pressure/temperature (200 - 300 psi and 100 degC?) sulfonations with SO3 using liquid SO2 as a solvent. Does anyone know where I might find an SO2 phase diagram? Please note, I am NOT a physical chemist, so should every undergrad P-chem text book contain such information, I apologize in advance. Thanks Nick Spare Pilot Chemical ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:51:27 EST From: Kathryn Wagner Subject: Re: Information Please! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit We are pleased to read the kind endorsements of the LS&EM newsletter and conference on the list recently. FYI, the LS&EM'99 conference will be held at the Four Seasons Hotel in Philadelphia, PA on July 27-28th. Additional information on the newsletter and conference can be found on our website: . As a point of clarification, please note that LS&EM is a non-profit entity and the conference has a long list of sponsors. If you have specific questions regarding the conference or newsletter, please contact me via e-mail or phone (301-765-0255). Kathryn D. Wagner, Ph.D. Editor, LS&EM Newsletter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:07:16 -0600 From: Brian Olson Subject: my favorite lab safety videos: Comments: cc: amkhalaf@ksu.edu.sa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" My thoughts on videos is this: Go no further than the (free still?) HHMI lab safety video series. They can be found here: http://www.hhmi.org/science/labsafe/videos.htm We use them all in our classroom settings. bri... Brian Olson EHS Manager, Promega Corporation ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:27:54 -0300 From: "Aziz M. Abu-khalaf" Subject: information Hi everybody We need to make available the following safety items in our department: Video tapes on safety I would appreciate giving information on the best of these, or the one you are using in safety field. -snip ------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:31:18 -0500 From: "Dr. Linda A. Swihart" Subject: red-faced.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Oh now I've gone and put my foot in it. Apologies to all for offering to share the draft Z590 standard and now withdrawing the offer. I have been advised by Tim Fisher from ASSE that the document is not to be reproduced or distributed through electronic means. He received a copy of the the message I posted to this list yesterday and sent me the email below. I responded that I would abide by ASSE's wishes in this regard and thanked him for the clarification. I didn't ask for details regarding the extent of the ban on electronic reproduction, although I would guess it means that they also do not want it photocopied or faxed, since those would be (correct me here if I'm wrong) identical in result, if not in medium. I am interested in hearing opinions via private email about how to understand this. I hesitate to ask Tim Fisher because I've already bothered him enough (not to mention I'm rather dreadfully embarrassed). I would like your views about why the ASSE must insist that copies only be obtained through ASSE. And usually for a hefty price, it seems, although it's been waived in this case. I understand, or think I do, that the draft is revised constantly; maybe it changes with amazing speed. But it seems that as long as that fact is made clear -- e.g. via a date and disclaimer on the document itself -- there is no understandable rationale for forbidding people to share the contents of the proposal by whatever means are available. Thanks, Linda >X-Lotus-FromDomain: ASSE >From: tfisher@asse.org >To: swihart@purdue.edu >Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:58:52 -0600 >Subject: FW: Copy of ANSI Z590 > >Dr. Swihart: > >I received a copy of this message today. Perhaps I was not specific >enough. If I was not please accept my apologies. However, this is an >draft ANSI standard with ASSE as the secretariat. It is not to be posted >on any web site or reproduced/distributed through electronic means. If >people would like the document they need to send us a request and we will >get it to them through mail service. > >Thanks and regards - Tim Fisher at ASSE > >"Will let people know when it gets here and how easy it might be to share >electronically -- with the understanding that it's a 'snapshot' of a >possibly-fast-changing draft. (I could try scanning it but that's usually >a terrible idea... of course it's been a while since I tried it and >technology has improved...) > >Linda" > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:15:08 EST From: John Yunker Subject: Harvard Lab Design Program Announcement: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Dear Colleague, The Harvard School of Public Health is pleased to again offer: Guidelines for Laboratory Design: Health & Safety Considerations. April 12-16, 1999 This one-week program includes on-site lab tours and a wealth of expert faculty. To have a brochure mailed or faxed to you, please contact us at the numbers below. Thank you. ===================================== Center for Continuing Professional Education Harvard School of Public Health 677 Huntington Avenue, LL-23 Boston, MA 02115-6096 Phone: (617) 432-1171 Fax: (617) 432-1969 Email: contedu@sph.harvard.edu http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/ccpe ===================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:56:15 -0500 From: John Lakanen Subject: chemical resistant pipes in new construction Mime-Version: 1.0 Labsafety list: We are in the process of designing a new chemistry facility and our architect and engineer want to use polyvinylidine fluoride (PVDF) pipes in our chemistry labs. I have never heard of this material before and my only experience has been with glass plumbing which was used at the University of Michigan labs. Does anyone know how good this material is or have any long term experience with it? Thanks for any advice, John Lakanen Assistant Prof. Chemistry Indiana Wesleyan University ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:10:45 +0000 From: Karen Glover Organization: Clarke College Subject: Re: chemical resistant pipes in new construction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John: I don't have any advice on the pipes. I just wanted to say "HI". I thought I read an article in US News and World Reports a few weeks ago about Christian colleges where Indiana Wesleyan was mentioned. I thought of you and thought I'd make a point to get in touch. I hope your semester is going great. It must be exciting to have a new chemistry facility. Best of luck. Karen Glover John Lakanen wrote: > Labsafety list: > > We are in the process of designing a new chemistry facility and our > architect and engineer want to use polyvinylidine fluoride (PVDF) pipes in > our chemistry labs. I have never heard of this material before and my only > experience has been with glass plumbing which was used at the University of > Michigan labs. Does anyone know how good this material is or have any long > term experience with it? > > Thanks for any advice, > > John Lakanen > Assistant Prof. Chemistry > Indiana Wesleyan University ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:25:57 -0800 From: Ray Campbell Subject: Re: chemical resistant pipes in new construction In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19990311165615.0067cf68@popmail.indwes.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 What a coincidence. I have, a few minutes ago, inspected a hazardous waste tank and associated process piping of PVDF. This material is not rated for Acetone!!! I explained this to our facility engineer- now I have an opportunity to show him what "not rated" means. I would not recommend it at all. Try Enfield Industrial at 708-295-4643 or Edlon PSI at 304-346-5312. Edlon has PTFE(Teflon), which I would and did recommend. Ray Campbell REA CCHO 310-257-1080 At 11:56 AM 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote: >Labsafety list: > > We are in the process of designing a new chemistry facility and our >architect and engineer want to use polyvinylidine fluoride (PVDF) pipes in >our chemistry labs. I have never heard of this material before and my only >experience has been with glass plumbing which was used at the University of >Michigan labs. Does anyone know how good this material is or have any long >term experience with it? > >Thanks for any advice, > >John Lakanen >Assistant Prof. Chemistry >Indiana Wesleyan University ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:10:52 -0500 From: "Chang, Jim C" Subject: Re: chemical resistant pipes in new construction Comments: cc: "jlakanen@indwes.edu" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John PVDF is a great material for certain applications. It is an expensive material though and may be overkill. If you are referring to your drain pipes, the first thing I would think about is what are designing for; for example, here in RTP, we have strict drain disposal guidelines that prohibit use of the drains for organics, etc. Obviously for us, spending a lot of money for solvent resistant drain piping would be questionable. If you are concerned about acids and bases, then a cheaper alternative may be fuse-seal polypropylene. If you would like, I would be happy to talk with you about the facility. We have done quite a few labs here and would be glad to share our experiences. Jim Chang, CIH Safety Engineer Glaxo Wellcome Inc. RTP, NC -----Original Message----- From: John Lakanen [SMTP:jlakanen@INDWES.EDU] Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 11:56 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:chemical resistant pipes in new construction Labsafety list: We are in the process of designing a new chemistry facility and our architect and engineer want to use polyvinylidine fluoride (PVDF) pipes in our chemistry labs. I have never heard of this material before and my only experience has been with glass plumbing which was used at the University of Michigan labs. Does anyone know how good this material is or have any long term experience with it? Thanks for any advice, John Lakanen Assistant Prof. Chemistry Indiana Wesleyan University ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:18:53 -0500 From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: chemical resistant pipes in new construction In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19990311165615.0067cf68@popmail.indwes.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe this is the material use in the lab plumbing in our latest research building (now 10 y/o)but I have forwrded the question on to our facilities design people. So far we haven't had any problems with the plumbing waste lines. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:25:08 -0500 From: Madelyn Miller Subject: Re: chemical resistant pipes in new construction In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Greetings: I have a real problem with our researchers throwing any hazardous chemical down the drain. I just never know when a plumber will have to work on one of those pipes and I need to ensure his/her safety too. Our policy is no hazardous waste goes down the drain. So save yourself big bucks on chemical resistant drain pipes. Madelyn ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Chemical Hygiene Officer, CCHO Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University mmiller@andrew.cmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:53:02 -0700 From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: NACHO Lunch in Anaheim Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear NACHOs, Please join Ray Campbell and Teresa Robertson (two southern California NACHOs) for a NACHO lunch at the National ACS Meeting, on Sunday March 21st, at the West Coast Hotel, Plaza A 1855 S. Harbor Blvd. Anaheim,CA We will meet at noon directly after the NRCC CHO certification exam, just outside the exam room. RSVP ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:12:43 -0400 From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: chemical resistant pipes in new construction Mime-Version: 1.0 >I have a real problem with our researchers throwing any hazardous >chemical down the drain. I just never know when a plumber will have to >work on one of those pipes and I need to ensure his/her safety too. > >Our policy is no hazardous waste goes down the drain. So save yourself >big bucks on chemical resistant drain pipes. I agree completely with your policy and your reasoning, and attempt to enforce it here, but policies and pipes are not the same. I'd be inclined to spec some degree of chemical resistance in new lab construction, to factor in the mistakes and the recalcitrant. Replacing corroded, leaking drain systems is expensive and aggravating. Don ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:36:05 -0500 From: Naomi Kelly Subject: Re: chemical resistant pipes in new construction In-Reply-To: <9DEE49E3944DD211974B00805FE663DA7705FC@US4N62> Mime-Version: 1.0 Would fuse-seal polypropylene be recommended for all acids? We are looking for the best piping for a lab using sulfuric, nitric, and hydrofluoric. At 01:10 PM 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote: >John > >PVDF is a great material for certain applications. It is an expensive >material though and may be overkill. > >If you are referring to your drain pipes, the first thing I would think >about is what are designing for; for example, here in RTP, we have strict >drain disposal guidelines that prohibit use of the drains for organics, etc. >Obviously for us, spending a lot of money for solvent resistant drain piping >would be questionable. > >If you are concerned about acids and bases, then a cheaper alternative may >be fuse-seal polypropylene. > >If you would like, I would be happy to talk with you about the facility. We >have done quite a few labs here and would be glad to share our experiences. > >Jim Chang, CIH >Safety Engineer >Glaxo Wellcome Inc. >RTP, NC > >-----Original Message----- >From: John Lakanen [SMTP:jlakanen@INDWES.EDU] >Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 11:56 AM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject:chemical resistant pipes in new construction > >Labsafety list: > > We are in the process of designing a new chemistry facility >and our >architect and engineer want to use polyvinylidine fluoride (PVDF) >pipes in >our chemistry labs. I have never heard of this material before and >my only >experience has been with glass plumbing which was used at the >University of >Michigan labs. Does anyone know how good this material is or have >any long >term experience with it? > >Thanks for any advice, > >John Lakanen >Assistant Prof. Chemistry >Indiana Wesleyan University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:38:27 -0800 From: Nick Spare Subject: Re: NACHO Lunch in Anaheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please put my name down for the NACHO Lunch. Nick Spare Pilot Chemical Co. -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 3:05 PM Subject: NACHO Lunch in Anaheim >Dear NACHOs, > >Please join Ray Campbell and Teresa Robertson (two southern California >NACHOs) > >for a NACHO lunch >at the National ACS Meeting, >on Sunday March 21st, >at the West Coast Hotel, Plaza A >1855 S. Harbor Blvd. >Anaheim,CA > >We will meet at noon directly after the NRCC CHO certification exam, >just outside the exam room. > >RSVP ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:46:13 -0800 From: Debbie Decker Subject: FYI - ultracentrifuges Mime-Version: 1.0 Hey gang: I thought I'd pass this along from our biosafety officer. It's interesting reading and the pics are cool. Thankfully, no one was hurt but the damage was impressive. Ultracentrifuges are dangerous pieces of equipment. Ya'll be careful out there. Deb. >I received this from the UCSD BSO. "Check out this Website about the >Ultracentrifuge Explosion at Cornell University. The shock wave generated >blew out the windows in the lab and knocked over chemicals." This is >something to include in our training. >http://www.ehs.cornell.edu/LRS/CentrifugeSafety/CentrifugeDamages.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:29:14 -0600 From: "Scott M. Davis" Subject: Re: FYI - ultracentrifuges Mime-Version: 1.0 WOW! Maybe this would be a good time to tout the Howard Hughes Medical Institute FREE video: "Centrifugation Hazards" (and many others) available at: http://www.hhmi.org/science/labsafe/order1.htm Scott Davis, CIH >Hey gang: > >I thought I'd pass this along from our biosafety officer. It's interesting >reading and the pics are cool. Thankfully, no one was hurt but the damage >was impressive. > >Ultracentrifuges are dangerous pieces of equipment. Ya'll be careful out >there. > >Deb. > >>I received this from the UCSD BSO. "Check out this Website about the >>Ultracentrifuge Explosion at Cornell University. The shock wave generated >>blew out the windows in the lab and knocked over chemicals." This is >>something to include in our training. >> >> >>http://www.ehs.cornell.edu/LRS/CentrifugeSafety/CentrifugeDamages.htm >> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:56:46 -0500 From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: FYI - ultracentrifuges In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990312094613.007a5cc0@scarlet.ucdavis.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How timely! I was just thinking last night that I need to get another rotor inspection program on the books. Maybe I can use this as incentive for the lab folks to participate and for me to get off my laurels! Nick Pinizzotto ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:06:03 -0700 From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: FYI - ultracentrifuges MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain An old Beckman ultracentrifuge I once operated had a pool of mercury below the rotor, if I recall, that was used as a "mirror" in the optical system to view sedimentation. Fortunately the instrument never experienced more than a minor tremble due to my keen ability at balancing (joke) but it certainly would add insult to injury to have spewn mercury about the lab as well as shrapnel. I wonder if the ultracentrifuge that exploded contained mercury. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:46:11 -0500 From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Your Favorite Lab Safety Videos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have a set of 6 from Training Communications Corp. (TRACOM) I like real well. The first in the series is Orientation to Laboratory Safety which I use for new people and for a review about once a year. I like the series because they are set in industrial labs and the safety rules they specify sound like they are out of our CHP. They run about 10 to 15 minutes each and cost about $100 each. They are aimed at working chemists, not students. Hope that helps! Bob "SEMPER ADVENTURUS!!!" Robert L. Burns R&D Group Leader Specialty Chemicals Division RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 815 333 4805 email rburns@bigfoot.com -----Original Message----- From: Labsafe@AOL.COM To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 11:28 Subject: Your Favorite Lab Safety Videos >Hi NACHOs, > >That recent question about videos made me thinks it might be good to have the >list on our web site as a FAQ. > >So, please send me a copy of your reply or a list of your favorites so that I >can compile the list and post it here and on the web site. Please include the >title, length, year of release, source, the appropriate audience, and any >editorial comments. > >Thanks, .... Jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:58:14 -0800 From: Debbie Decker Subject: Re: FYI - ultracentrifuges In-Reply-To: <45C82258A1B2D111892500805FCC9B0D01257B4B@nt05.wstf.nasa.go v> Mime-Version: 1.0 At 12:06 PM 3/12/99 -0700, you wrote: >An old Beckman ultracentrifuge I once operated had a pool of >mercury below the rotor, if I recall, that was used as a "mirror" in the >optical system to view sedimentation. Fortunately the instrument never >experienced more than a minor tremble due to my keen ability at >balancing (joke) but it certainly would add insult to injury to have >spewn mercury about the lab as well as shrapnel. I wonder if the >ultracentrifuge that exploded contained mercury. According to the information on the website, it was just shrapnel - no mercury. But this is an excellent tip to add to this discussion since those in academia have to deal with medieval equipment sometimes . Also, I have seen the Howard Hughes video on centrifugation hazards and it is a good 'un. Short and sweet and very to the point, as are all their videos. Thanks, Scott, for suggesting it. And, now, I'm going to go for a walk! It is a sinfully gorgeous day - temp in the mid-60's, blue sky, lust-crazed ducks on the creek behind our office - spring is in the air! Cheers, Debbie D. Debbie Decker EH&S UCDavis (530)754-7964 dmdecker@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:51:23 -0500 From: Naomi Kelly Subject: First Aid Kits Mime-Version: 1.0 Does anyone have first aids kits whereby you actually had the involvement of a physician to determine what should be available in these kits? Does anyone have a list of particularly hazardous chemicals that require specific antidotes or treatment supplies. I think HF has been discussed sufficiently.Cyanide was given a fair amount of time as well, however, there seemed to be fairly divided opposition. I am still unclear what to do with that one. Perhaps I quit reading the messages too soon...? If someone shared the info that I'm looking for during the time of those discussions, forgive me for asking again. Probably like most of you, if I took the time to read all of my email messages, I would not get any work done. We have a health care facility here on campus, but the doctors want us to provide this info to them. Thanks for your help ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:01:43 -0700 From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: LD50 for water Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LD50, oral rat, for water is 90ml / kg (?). That is what some MSDSs say. Does that sound correct? If so, are we to label squeeze bottles of di water "toxic"? Someone please tell me this number is not correct. Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:20:10 -0500 From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: First Aid Kits Mime-Version: 1.0 >Does anyone have first aids kits whereby you actually had the involvement >of a physician to determine what should be available in these kits? Does >anyone have a list of particularly hazardous chemicals that require >specific antidotes or treatment supplies? We had our company physician evaluate the contents of our first aid kits. He removed some items that I thought were really useful (hydrocortizone cream-I really needed this for insect bites) and added some that I don't think are very useful. We have a new company physician who will be reevaluating the kit contents. We don't have any specific treatment supplies for hazardous chemicals on the physician approved list. We do carry HF burn cream, though, even though it's not on the "approved" list. Julie O'Brien Chemist PCR, Inc. PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 ext. 232 Fax 352-373-7503 afn35210@afn.org Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville PO Box 5951 Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:20:49 -0500 From: Sharon Reed Subject: Re: LD50 for water Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think that is because the rats are drowning, not ingesting!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:25:58 -0500 From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: LD50 for water Mime-Version: 1.0 >LD50, oral rat, for water is 90ml / kg (?). That is what some MSDSs >say. Does that sound correct? Well, I calculated the amount that would mean for my body weight. That much water could not fit in my stomach all at once!! I've seen water with a HMIS health rating of 2 before. It was written on a wash bottle. I've also seen that on a coffee cup. It scares me that there's even a MSDS for water at all. Has the world gone mad? I recently received a MSDS for the solvent used for the ink for my permanent marker. Do I really need to know that they use butyl alcohol as the solvent?? Julie O'Brien Just my opinion. :) Chemist PCR, Inc. PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 ext. 232 Fax 352-373-7503 afn35210@afn.org Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville PO Box 5951 Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:34:43 -0600 From: "Anne T. Sherren" Subject: Re: First Aid Kits Comments: To: Michael Hudson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last year we had a safety inspection by our insurance company. We were strictly told that there could be no medicines in the First Aid Kits we had on the walls of the labs. Fortunately we only had bandaids and gause in our kits. At the time we were surprised, but knew "Don't have anything in those kits". I wonder about chemical antidotes? Having them easily accessible in the lab is another possibility. Anne Sherren, NorthCentral College Naomi Kelly wrote: > Does anyone have first aids kits whereby you actually had the involvement > of a physician to determine what should be available in these kits? Does > anyone have a list of particularly hazardous chemicals that require > specific antidotes or treatment supplies. I think HF has been discussed > sufficiently.Cyanide was given a fair amount of time as well, however, > there seemed to be fairly divided opposition. I am still unclear what to do > with that one. Perhaps I quit reading the messages too soon...? If someone > shared the info that I'm looking for during the time of those discussions, > forgive me for asking again. Probably like most of you, if I took the time > to read all of my email messages, I would not get any work done. > > We have a health care facility here on campus, but the doctors want us to > provide this info to them. > > Thanks for your help ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:41:45 -0700 From: Sharyn Bake Subject: Re: LD50 for water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain That much water could be given intravenously. and it is possible to make your self ill by drinking too much water. It certainly is easy to give an infant too much fluid. You are missing the point about water. The point here is that just about all substances on this planet , including seemingly innocuous things like water, can be thought of as hazardous. It is the dose that makes the poison. On the other hand, I agree that the original purpose of the OSHA standard has been subverted by people who are not appropriately trained to interpret it or even read it correctly. This includes, in my opinion, some people who call themselves safety professionals. I personally would not formally label water (but would use a grease pen) as hazardous but I would be rigorous about other substances in labs needing formal labels. just my opinion. sharyn > ---------- > From: Julie O'Brien > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 1:25 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: LD50 for water > > >LD50, oral rat, for water is 90ml / kg (?). That is what some MSDSs > >say. Does that sound correct? > > Well, I calculated the amount that would mean for my body weight. That > much > water could not fit in my stomach all at once!! I've seen water with a > HMIS > health rating of 2 before. It was written on a wash bottle. I've also seen > that on a coffee cup. > > It scares me that there's even a MSDS for water at all. Has the world gone > mad? > > I recently received a MSDS for the solvent used for the ink for my > permanent > marker. Do I really need to know that they use butyl alcohol as the > solvent?? > > Julie O'Brien > Just my opinion. :) > > Chemist > PCR, Inc. > PO Box 1466 > Gainesville, FL 32602 > 352-376-8246 ext. 232 > Fax 352-373-7503 > afn35210@afn.org > > Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer > EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville > PO Box 5951 > Gainesville, FL 32627 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:38:00 -0500 From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: LD50 for water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >It scares me that there's even a MSDS for water at all. Has the world gone mad? Hey, I have to have an MSDS in my collection for the NaCl and sucrose we use, as well as the *sand* we use in the organic labs for the sand baths! I also have one for coffee, air, water and I'm looking for one for chocolate. Ain't life grand? Tammy Tayman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:47:09 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: LD50 for water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Maybe they drowned? Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson [SMTP:Teresa_Robertson@FIRSTCLASS1.CSUBAK.EDU] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 11:02 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:LD50 for water LD50, oral rat, for water is 90ml / kg (?). That is what some MSDSs say. Does that sound correct? If so, are we to label squeeze bottles of di water "toxic"? Someone please tell me this number is not correct. Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:37:54 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Re: LD50 for water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Not surprising at all. "Water intoxication" is a well-known medical condition. It can be and is sometimes caused by excess consumption of water but more often is a result of an electrolyte imbalance. It can be fatal - people have indeed died from it. Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:12:33 -0500 From: "Henry Boyter Jr." Subject: Re: LD50 for water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several years ago, there was a listing in C&EN for this. I can't remember it all, but there was an LC50 for kittens dropped into river kittens dropped from 25 feet into river kittens in tied off bag dropped from 25 feet into river Always describe the conditions!!!! Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational purposes only and should not be used as advice. No warranty or expression of professionalism is implied. *************** -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 3:02 PM Subject: LD50 for water LD50, oral rat, for water is 90ml / kg (?). That is what some MSDSs say. Does that sound correct? If so, are we to label squeeze bottles of di water "toxic"? Someone please tell me this number is not correct. Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:31:36 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Re: First Aid Kits In-Reply-To: <36E97A63.E9896371@noctrl.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 In the past I've expressed support for Ca gluconate for HF - in fact, it should be mandatory to have it on hand before initiating work with HF - and doubt about the merit of cyanide antidote kits. Here are some questions you should ask before putting something other than standard bandaging/splinting supplies in a general-use kit: 1) Is there a specific recognized treatment for material(s) that we use? 2) Does providing an antidote or treatment available for general use reduce or increase potential morbidity/mortality? Put another way, is the original material nasty enough to merit the trouble and does the antidote/treatment present hazards of its own? 3) Does whatever we're putting in the kit require special training and/or supervision (e.g., from an MD)? This one varies quite a bit and relates to #2. If so, should everyone be trained or should the "special stuff" be in the hands of a response team? Where will the kits be placed relative to where people are working with chemicals? 4) Is someone responsible for ensuring that the antidote/Tx is still functional (hasn't caked/melted/evaporated/expired/been contaminated)? This holds for aspirin as well as gluconate. 5) If the material you're worried about needs special treatment, how time-sensitive is treatment initiation? Cyanide and HF require rapid treatment - not everything else does. Can industrial or local EMS provide the treatment in time? How about the hospitals? 6) What is the role of the doc who's examining the kits? Does he have any role in development of treatment protocols? Does he know the capability of internal and external response teams? Is his goal to minimize personal inconvenience (not to mention very real personal and corporate liability) or to provide functional equipment? The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive but they do require some assessment and thought. Just remember that if you do go to your doc for approval and then don't comply with the instructions you're exposing everyone to potential liability, even if you think you're doing the right thing. 7) Can the need for special kit contents be reduced by other safety considerations (procedures, PPE, etc.)? Not an exhaustive list, but probably some questions worth asking in an assessment. JNR Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:00:08 -0600 From: EH&S Compliance Subject: Re: LD50 for water Into the fray, LD50s are common on MSDSs and there are specific definitions for the term toxic associated with it, see the excerpt from the OSHA standard below. Having an LD50 just means a test has been run. It doesn't mean it is toxic. You state the LD50, oral rat, for water is 90ml / kg. This means a median lethal dose administered orally to rats. It is a standard abbreviation for certain conditions. Doing the math, the 90ml/kg would be (1gm/cc density for water) a LD50 of 90 grams/kg or 90,000mg/kg. Toxic is a LD50 of less than 500mg/kg. It would be rather incorrect to label it as toxic. Rebecca Levins EH&S Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net 1910.1200 Appendix A Toxic. A chemical falling within any of the following categories: A chemical that has a median lethal dose (LD50) of more than 50 milligrams per kilogram but not more than 500 milligrams per kilogram of body weight when administered orally to albino rats weighing between 200 and 300 grams each. A chemical that has a median lethal dose (LD50) of more than 200 milligrams per kilogram but not more than 1,000 milligrams per kilogram of body weight when administered by continuous contact for 24 hours (or less if death occurs within 24 hours) with the bare skin of albino rabbits weighing between two and three kilograms each. A chemical that has a median lethal concentration (LC50) in air of more than 200 parts per million but not more than 2,000 parts per million by volume of gas or vapor, or more than two milligrams per liter but not more than 20 milligrams per liter of mist, fume, or dust, when administered by continuous inhalation for one hour (or less if death occurs within one hour) to albino rats weighing between 200 and 300 grams each. Rebecca Levins EH&S Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 3:02 PM Subject: LD50 for water LD50, oral rat, for water is 90ml / kg (?). That is what some MSDSs say. Does that sound correct? If so, are we to label squeeze bottles of di water "toxic"? Someone please tell me this number is not correct. Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:08:32 -0700 From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: LD50 for water Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >>LD50, oral rat, for water is 90ml / kg (?). That is what some MSDSs >>say. Does that sound correct? >Well, I calculated the amount that would mean for my body weight. That >much >water could not fit in my stomach all at once!! >Not surprising at all. "Water intoxication" is a well-known medical >condition. It can be and is sometimes caused by excess consumption of >water >but more often is a result of an electrolyte imbalance. It can be fatal >- >people have indeed died from it. Two very different responses. I was surprised the LD50 was so low; not that it was so high. Confession - My mind went down the wrong track for awhile, I converted 90 mls to 90 mg, instead of to 90 gm! (trying to do math in my head on a Friday with weather as beautiful as Deb's). Does it make more sense to know that I was struggling with the validity of the (erroneous) concept of 90 mg / kg LD50 for water? My apologies. Teresa PS. Rebecca, I've just seen your post. You hit the nail on the head! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:33:04 -0700 From: Katrina Doolittle Subject: University Laboratory Hygienist Position Open Mime-Version: 1.0 ANNOUNCEMENT OF POSITION AVAILABILITY at University Safety Office New Mexico State University Las Cruces, NM 88003 TITLE: University Laboratory Hygienist Refer to Position # 7143 EFFECTIVELY: ASAP SALARY: $29,381 - 44,071 QUALIFICATIONS: Master's degree in industrial hygiene, science, or occupational safety and health. Must have degree in hand by date of hire. Minimum of three years training and laboratory hygiene experience. Demonstrated knowledge and experience in the identification and evaluation of health and safety hazards in research laboratories. Demonstrated knowledge of current legal requirements, guidelines, prudent practices applying to health and safety issues. Demonstrated experience in design and performance of effective laboratory surveys, and ability to evaluate the results of such surveys and communicate findings in an effective, positive manner. Demonstrated skills and ability to organize, present, and evaluate classes, seminars and training required. Demonstrated strong ability to communicate effectively, both orally and in writing. KNOWLEDGE, SKILLS, ABILITIES: Applied knowledge of chemical toxicity and properties and of the principles of chemical storage, use and disposal. Knowledge in the selection and use of personal protective equipment. Demonstrated ability to use word processing, spread sheet, database and other software to analyze data and prepare professional documents and training materials, including web pages. Ability to organize and schedule tasks to complete projects effectively and efficiently. Communication skills necessary to impart health and safety information to workers of differing backgrounds. SPECIAL REQUIREMENTS: Ability to respond to hazardous materials spills and incidents, pass pulmonary function test, be fit tested and wear an air purifying respirator and a self contained breathing apparatus. Some evening and weekend work. RESPONSIBILITIES: Duties and responsibilities may include evaluating health and safety hazards in laboratories and support facilities according to environmental, health and safety principles and legal requirements. Working with laboratory faculty and staff to correct deficiencies. Developing laboratory training for chemical, biological, and radiological safety for a variety of audiences, including faculty and staff. Responsible for the Chemical Hygiene Program, Hazard Communication Program and Biosafety as it applies to the Academic and Research laboratories. Keeps the NMSU Guide to Lab Safety and Safety web page up to date. BENEFITS: Group medical and hospital insurance, group life insurance, state educational retirement, worker's compensation, sick leave, and unemployment compensation. DEADLINE FOR APPLICATION: Submit letter of application, resume, transcript, and list of three references postmarked by March 26, 1999. Refer to Position #7143. Mail complete application to University Safety Office, Box 30001/MSC 3578, Las Cruces, NM 88003, Attn: Dr. Katrina Doolittle. New Mexico State University is an EEO/AA Employer. Offer of employment contingent upon verification of individual's eligibility for employment in the United States. Position is contingent upon availability of funding. (Applicable only to non I & G funded positions) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:57:23 -0500 From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: CHP/HC in general In-Reply-To: <008101be6722$852695c0$4c28400c@nick> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" At 08:07 AM 3/5/99 -0800, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I realize that this is just a pipe dream, but wouldn't it be wonderful if >politicians and lawyers could just learn how to write in English (or >whatever the audience's native language is) rather than legalese. Then we >could spend more time applying the rules rather than discussing >interpretations of them!! > >Editorial over. (These are absolutely my views and should not be viewed any >other way etc. etc. etc.) > >Nick Spare >Pilot Chemical Co. > Right on, Nick. If they can't learn English, then we'd call it the lawyer unemployment act. Mary Ann Mary Ann Solstad 16 Pequot Rd Marblehead, MA 01945-1202 tel 781-631-4748, FAX 781-631-1832 outmsolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:22:07 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Your Favorite Lab Safety Videos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-12 14:47:12 EST, you write: << We have a set of 6 from Training Communications Corp. (TRACOM) I like real well. The first in the series is Orientation to Laboratory Safety which I use for new people and for a review about once a year. I like the series because they are set in industrial labs and the safety rules they specify sound like they are out of our CHP. They run about 10 to 15 minutes each and cost about $100 each. They are aimed at working chemists, not students. >> Hi NACHOs, The series is called "Elements of Safety" and has 12 parts. It's available from LSW. ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:58:48 +1300 From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: LD50 for water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "All things are toxic, Its the dose that counts" Its a huge amount but there are recorded cases of people overdosing on water and dying (besides drownings!!) Tony ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:00:21 +1300 From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: LD50 for water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are commonly MSDSs for sand. Ever heard of Silicosis? Tony ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:11:19 -0500 From: "Henry Boyter Jr." Subject: Re: LD50 for water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem is that many say things like: Do not let touch skin. Wear PPE if skin exposed. Seek medical help if it gets on skin. Without regard to the type of exposure. Takes the fun out of going to the beach. Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational purposes only and should not be used as advice. No warranty or expression of professionalism is implied. *************** -----Original Message----- From: Tony Haggerty To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 5:59 PM Subject: Re: LD50 for water There are commonly MSDSs for sand. Ever heard of Silicosis? Tony ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:07:49 -0600 From: Ward R Phifer Subject: Re: LD50 for water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All those of you out there who don't believe water is a "dangerous chemical" should consider this: Reacts violently with certain alkali metals, causing explosions Corrodes steel rapidly Gaseous form causes serious burns Solid form can cause hypothermia Responsible for far more deaths per year than any other chemical (So don't mix it with sodium, put your hand in steam, hold ice for long periods of time, or go swimming if you don't know how) As with all chemicals, its the dose that counts...... Russ Phifer WC Environmental ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:57:17 -0500 From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: LD50 for water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We label our DI water bottles "non-hazardous". Anything else is just plain silly. -----Original Message----- From: Ward R Phifer To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 8:28 Subject: Re: LD50 for water >All those of you out there who don't believe water is a "dangerous >chemical" should consider this: > >Reacts violently with certain alkali metals, causing explosions >Corrodes steel rapidly >Gaseous form causes serious burns >Solid form can cause hypothermia >Responsible for far more deaths per year than any other chemical > >(So don't mix it with sodium, put your hand in steam, hold ice for long >periods of time, or go swimming if you don't know how) > >As with all chemicals, its the dose that counts...... > >Russ Phifer >WC Environmental ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 07:44:03 -0800 From: Mike hinz Subject: Re: LD50 for water Mime-Version: 1.0 I doubt that water causes more deaths per year than ethanol, my candidate for title of, 'most dangerous chemical'. What with all the talk of the dangers of water and sand, add to it the danger of exposure to sunlight and I ain't never going to the beach no mo'. Mike Hinz Chemistry Dept. Washington State University At 08:07 AM 3/15/99 -0600, you wrote: >All those of you out there who don't believe water is a "dangerous >chemical" should consider this: > >Reacts violently with certain alkali metals, causing explosions >Corrodes steel rapidly >Gaseous form causes serious burns >Solid form can cause hypothermia >Responsible for far more deaths per year than any other chemical > >(So don't mix it with sodium, put your hand in steam, hold ice for long >periods of time, or go swimming if you don't know how) > >As with all chemicals, its the dose that counts...... > >Russ Phifer >WC Environmental ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:49:49 -0500 From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: LD50 for water In-Reply-To: <19990315.082206.-148383.1.envasset@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 At 08:07 AM 3/15/99 -0600, you wrote: >All those of you out there who don't believe water is a "dangerous >chemical" should consider this: > >Reacts violently with certain alkali metals, causing explosions >Corrodes steel rapidly >Gaseous form causes serious burns >Solid form can cause hypothermia >Responsible for far more deaths per year than any other chemical > >(So don't mix it with sodium, put your hand in steam, hold ice for long >periods of time, or go swimming if you don't know how) > >As with all chemicals, its the dose that counts...... > >Russ Phifer >WC Environmental > Great one, Ward. See you Sunday. Mary Ann Mary Ann Solstad, CIH 4 A's of Safety SOLSTAD Health & Safety Evaluations Attitude 16 Pequot Rd, Marblehead, MA 01945 Awareness 781-631-4748 tel, 781-631-1832 FAX Automatic Application Authority Past Chair, DivCHAS, ACS msolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:58:14 -0500 From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: EPA targets New England colleges, universities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="openmail-part-05077a92-00000001" --openmail-part-05077a92-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="EPA" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="EPA" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good Monday everyone, Just recieved this from my boss. Thought I'd forward it to all. I especially like the discharge of mercury to the drain without properly treating it. HMMMMMMMMMM all this time we've paying to dispose/recycle it and we could have been just properly treating it and pouring it to the drain. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 --openmail-part-05077a92-00000001 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:32:37 -0500 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Subject: EPA targets New England colleges, universities MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: Martha#f#Anderson/internet////////RFC-822/Martha#f#Anderson#a#mail#f#tju#f#edu@hpmail1 From: "Martha Anderson" TO: cherry.moragne@mail.tju.edu, jolene.shaw@mail.tju.edu, kate.ananson@mail.tju.edu, mary.b.o'connor@mail.tju.edu, nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu, patrick.j.o'neill@mail.tju.edu, robert.shewbrooks@mail.tju.edu, stephen.baker@mail.tju.edu, susan.souder@mail.tju.edu Content-Type: multipart/Mixed; boundary="openmail-part-05077a92-00000002" --openmail-part-05077a92-00000002 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:00:24 -0500 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Subject: EPA targets New England colleges, universities MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: Martha#f#Anderson/internet////////RFC-822/Martha#f#Anderson#a#mail#f#tju#f#edu@hpmail1 From: rstuart@esf.uvm.edu TO: SAFETY@LIST.UVM.EDU Content-Type: multipart/Mixed; boundary="openmail-part-05077a92-00000003" --openmail-part-05077a92-00000003 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="EPA.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Suzanne Howard Subject: Boston Globe Article Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 07:54:26 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Thought this would be fitting for the Lab-xl or safety list. As usual, taken right out of boston.com. Suzanne __________________________ EPA targets New England colleges, universities By Associated Press, 03/15/99 05:07 BOSTON (AP) - The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency is going after colleges and universities in New England to get them to comply with federal regulations. Officials were prepared to file a complaint today against the University of New Hampshire, accusing it of violating hazardous waste management plans, The Boston Globe reported. Complaints are expected to be made against other institutions in New England, said Ken Moraff, chief of the EPA's regional enforcement office. The EPA also plans to notify college presidents in the region that in the spring, it will inspect campuses where violations are suspected. The EPA also plans to offer training sessions for college officials on ways to improve environmental management. ''It's a very ambitious and concentrated effort to improve environmental performances on college campuses throughout New England,'' John DeVillars, the EPA's administrator in the region, told the Globe. Colleges and universities are targets because they usually have laboratories, waste treatment facilities and power plants that can damage the environment if not properly managed, he said. ''We have found that some educational institutions don't take their environmental obligations as seriously as they should,'' DeVillars said in a letter to be mailed to college presidents. He said the complaint against UNH results from an inspection of its Durham, N.H., campus in 1997. Inspectors found 15 violations of federal and state hazardous waste laws at laboratories and storage facilities, DeVillars said. One accusation is that UNH poured mercury down a drain without ensuring it was properly treated, the EPA said. The university reportedly faces a fine of as much as $300,000. ''We believe that although there were some technical compliance issues back in 1997, our program was fundamentally sound then and even better now,'' Donald Sundberg, UNH vice president for research and public service, said in a statement. He said university officials will work closely with the EPA to satisfy the agency's concerns. Moraff said UNH can contest the complaint in a hearing process, or seek a settlement. ''What we are finding is that some schools don't have a good system in place to manage hazardous waste, or systems to manage underground oil storage,'' said Moraff. ''That can be dangerous if you don't store it properly, risking explosions or spills,'' he said. The complaint will be the third against a New England university in the last four years. Yale University paid $348,000 in fines and community environmental investments in 1995 after it was cited for allegedly mishandling and improperly labeling hazardous chemicals. Boston University agreed to pay $753,000 in fines and community projects in 1997 after being cited for allegedly violating regulations on underground storage tanks and storm water. The investigation followed the leaking of 1,000 gallons of oil into the Charles River from a tank near the BU Bridge. ---------------------- --openmail-part-05077a92-00000003-- --openmail-part-05077a92-00000002-- --openmail-part-05077a92-00000001-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:25:05 EST From: Martin Besant Subject: Re: LD-50 Water Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The first time I saw this was at a Chem Com Conference at Drew Univ in NJ. I was surprised to see a State hazardous chemical number attached to the water faucet. I could not understand why this chemical should be "listed" when the desk top, the floor tiles, the wall paint etc was not. The only thing that upset me more was that the other conference attendees could not understand my objection to the adherence to this follish regulation. Our lab was required to remove ethylene glycol from our stickroom as a hazard, yet our students can buy it by the gallon at WalMart. Someone is a fool Marty Besant West Seneca East Sr HS A suburb of Buffalo, NY ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:14:33 -0700 From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: LD-50 Water Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >The only thing that upset me more was that the other conference >attendees >could not understand my objection to the adherence to this follish >regulation. My comment is not to defend the labeling of the water faucet, but I do not agree with violating a regulation because of personal opinion that it is foolish. [maybe the real problem is interpretation of the regulation] Okay, call me a Boy Scout. The expanded version of "a Scout is obedient" says that one should not violate a law that is not good, but work through the proper channels to change the law. In my last 8-hour haz-mat refresher, the instructor (from the San Bernardino County Fire Dept.) said he personally has taken on such a task, and WAS able to get the legislature to respond! This is one of our greatest challenges as CHOs. We are all surrounded by fellow employees, each one with a different opinion of what is foolish, and what is not. This is why we vote, and even if I am in the minority, I uphold the right of majority to make the decision. Why? Because I have personally worked with people who do not wear goggles because they fog, and do not wear gloves because the powder causes them to need hand lotion, and those who wear sandals to work in the lab when the weather is hot. These people feel the rules to the contrary are foolish (and are plenty verbal about it also). >Our lab was required to remove ethylene glycol from our stickroom as a >hazard, >yet our students can buy it by the gallon at WalMart. They can buy guns and knives at "WalMart" also, so those also are okay at school(?) Hey, the soapbox is fun! . . . oops, here come the tomatoes! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:27:02 +1300 From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: LD-50 Water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This whole discussion highlights the lack of understanding of what is a Hazardous Substance for legal transport, storage and use purposes. In all jurisdictions, there are, or should be, very specific criteria which determine whether a substance is flammable, toxic, corrosive etc. for the particular mode or country. Flammable liquids are not hazardous substances for transportation according to the UN Committee of Experts if the Flash Point is >60.5oC. Substances are not Toxic for transportation if their LD 50s are above 500 mg/kg for solids or 200 mg/kg for liquids. Different countries have different criteria for storage or use. Those who put hazard warnings on water for example, debase the whole system and make it worthless. The value of a hazard warning is that it is unusual and has impact. I don't have a problem with MSDSs for Water or Sand or any other non Hazardous Substance. As a hazmat emergency responder I am happy to have written information that tells me a substance is non hazardous because it saves me wasting resources. I would suggest that the organisation that has hazard warnings on its faucets should keep them locked and only allow trained personnel to operate them because that is the rest of the equation in most jurisdictions I am aware of. Cheers Tony ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:15:39 -0600 From: "Barbara E. Liedl" Subject: EPA targets New England colleges, universities In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Hi to one and all. I just finished reading Nick Pinizzotto's message about the EPA targetting colleges and universities and I feel like I just saw my worst nightmare come true. Why is it my nightmare? I guess it is something I have thought would happen to us first. Here are my reasons: 1) Lack of compliance with standards. Our institution is so far out of compliance it isn't funny. You don't want to see our chemical hygiene plan or safety plan for our building or the whole institution. I am repeatedly told that "we are too small and no one will come and inspect us". Yes we are small (student population of 1,300), but we are just starting a renovation/addition project for our science building. The whole campus was inspected 2 years ago by EPA and had problems identified that have yet to be corrected. It isn't funny, but very few people are taking this seriously. 2) Lack of information about standards or requirements. We don't have a safety officer or chemical hygiene officer for the campus. All we have is a stockroom manager who has one year under her belt dealing with a stockroom that would make all of your cringe if you saw it (I can supply digital photos if you want), keeping 10 professors happy with stockroom performance, demo set up and lab support, supervising 6 or 7 students and was given no additional training in chemical hygiene, compliance or safety beyond a biology degree. Yet she has the additional job of "Environmental Compliance Officer" AND I am her supervisor. I really do feel lost in the regulations and standards and I can only imagine what our stockroom manager feels when she is supposed to be in charge of parts of the chemical hygiene plan and training. So, we are asking for help, guidance or assistance on where to start. Someone out there must have been in the same situation at one time. Also, we did consider it, but leaving our jobs is out of the question (at least til the end of the semester), so we need to find some way to solve these problems. What do we have? We have searched the web and have found an amazing stockpile of chemical hygiene plans. We do have a chemical inventory list in FileMaker Pro that we are planning to move to Chemventory by Flinn Scientific. We have checked MSDS sheets based on the chemical inventory list, but it is a binder based system and we are probably missing some. Our nurse has a great written policy and training procedure for blood borne pathogens. But as far as we can tell only counselors and cleaning staff are trained in this area. We do have a hazardous waste room and do use secondary containment and have it inventoried and labelled appropriately. BUT THAT IS ABOUT IT! Right now I think we are only going to focus on developing the chemical hygiene plan and policies for our building which houses Biology, Chemistry, and Physics. At some point, we need to include the Physical Plant, Art and Theatre departments. Any suggestions on books, videos, CDs, agencies, contacts, plans of attack, etc.? Are there organizations we need to join as individuals or an institution? Any suggestions on dealing with the "higher ups"? Also, what do other "Environmental Compliance Officers" do? I have no idea where the title came from on her job description. Personally I think it is ploy by some of our Physical Plant staff who would like to push our stockroom manager into being the Safety Officer for the whole campus!!! Thanks for your assistance and the great discussion list. Barbara Liedl liedlb@central.edu Assistant Professor of Biology ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:36:28 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Subject: Thought you should know MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We thought you should know.... http://www.safetyinfo.com Reported in the New York Times ...... New Reforms to Protect Safety Whistle Blowers March 15, 1999 The Clinton Administration is proposing "sweeping new protections for...whistle-blowers" who report safety problems at their place of employment. Currently the OSHA Act provides protection from retaliation by employers but it is seen as not effective in the real world. ... " the inspector general of the Labor Department, Charles Masten, said such reprisals often occur." Charles Jeffress (head of OSHA) was the reported source of the info on the new proposed changes in the law. He stated, "Too many employers feel they can retaliate against whistle-blowers with impunity." and that the current law is "too weak and too cumbersome to discourage employer retaliation or to provide an effective remedy for the victims." A Department of Labor survey revealed that of the 653 cases, almost 67% of the "whistle-blowers" were fired. Given that statistic, OSHA and the Department to Labor have an apparent poor track record of initiating action on behalf of the terminated workers: in 1998 of some 2474 complaints of retaliation, only 14 cases were filed in court. In 1997 the numbers were: 2124 complaints with 18 cases filed in court. The new proposed change will allow workers 6 months to file complaints of retaliation vice the current statute of 30 days. The New York Times report stated that "to provide more rapid assistance to workers, the White House will propose that cases be tried before hearing officers known as administrative-law judges. The administration will ask Congress to authorize punitive damages in cases where an employer has falsified records or disregarded the requirements of federal law in a particularly brazen or egregious way. " Visit our web site for expanded news coverage on OSHA - DOT - NIOSH - EPA issues Regards & Best Wishes Marc Neuffer http://www.safetyinfo.com ... ... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:59:58 -0500 From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: LD-50 Water In-Reply-To: <001601be6f4c$393dc660$132864c1@HPC013.FIRE.ORG.NZ> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" At last, a few useful facts on transport, and a breath of common sense. Following really foolish regs to the absolute letter encourages disrespect for all. At 02:27 PM 3/16/99 +1300, you wrote: >This whole discussion highlights the lack of understanding of what is a >Hazardous Substance for legal transport, storage and use purposes. In all >jurisdictions, there are, or should be, very specific criteria which >determine whether a substance is flammable, toxic, corrosive etc. for the >particular mode or country. > >Flammable liquids are not hazardous substances for transportation according >to the UN Committee of Experts if the Flash Point is >60.5oC. Substances >are not Toxic for transportation if their LD 50s are above 500 mg/kg for >solids or 200 mg/kg for liquids. > >Different countries have different criteria for storage or use. > >Those who put hazard warnings on water for example, debase the whole system >and make it worthless. The value of a hazard warning is that it is unusual >and has impact. > >I don't have a problem with MSDSs for Water or Sand or any other non >Hazardous Substance. As a hazmat emergency responder I am happy to have >written information that tells me a substance is non hazardous because it >saves me wasting resources. > >I would suggest that the organisation that has hazard warnings on its >faucets should keep them locked and only allow trained personnel to operate >them because that is the rest of the equation in most jurisdictions I am >aware of. > >Cheers >Tony > Mary Ann Mary Ann Solstad 16 Pequot Rd Marblehead, MA 01945-1202 tel 781-631-4748, FAX 781-631-1832 outmsolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:47:08 -0300 From: "Aziz M. Abu-khalaf" Subject: Re: LABSAFETY-L Digest - 13 Mar 1999 to 15 Mar 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 What are you saying, Russ, is relative. Chemicals are hazardous under certain conditions, and we should not isolate them from these specific conditions. Steam, ice, contaminated water, hot water etc.. can be harmful, but only because they are within the hazardous range. We dont drink contaminated water, and we swim if we know how. I believe that: things are safe unless it is proved to be hazardous. Aziz. >Reacts violently with certain alkali metals, causing explosions >Corrodes steel rapidly >Gaseous form causes serious burns >Solid form can cause hypothermia >Responsible for far more deaths per year than any other chemical > >(So don't mix it with sodium, put your hand in steam, hold ice for long >periods of time, or go swimming if you don't know how) > >As with all chemicals, its the dose that counts...... > >Russ Phifer >WC Environmental > **************************************************************************** ******* Aziz M. Abu-Khalaf ***** Tel: 00966 1 4676894 Chemical Engineering Department ***** Fax: 00966 1 4678770 King Saud University ***** E-mail: amkhalaf@ksu.edu.sa PO Box 800 ***** Riyadh 11421, Saudi Arabia ***** **************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:13:08 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Safety Acronyms Comments: To: Safety , Safe-NZ@niwa.cri.nz, nsela-l@science.coe.uwf.edu, NAOSMM@listserv.rice.edu, hs-canada@ccohs.ca, dchas-l@siu.edu, chemlab_L@vax1.bemidji.msus.edu, chemed-l@atlantis.uwf.edu, CHEMCOM@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu, biosafty@mitvma.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >I was looking for a list or sample of some commonly used acronyms >in safety. Examples such as OSHA-Occupational Safety and Health >Administration, PEL-Permissible Exposure Limit and so on. This needs to be >very basic but I want the participants to have an understanding of terms >that they may encounter on a daily basis as they relate to safety.> The Laboratory Safety Workshop has a very complete list of safety acronyms at www.labsafety.org on the services page. .... Jim Kaufman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:56:43 EST From: stefan Subject: Re: EPA targets New England colleges, universities In-Reply-To: <199903160620.AAA104924@saluki-mailsmtp.siu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To Barb Liedl, and Recipients of LABSAFETY-L; We are all in this together, large universities and small colleges- those with established EH & S departments, and those without- those with six figure HazWaste budgets, and those with a one time annual allotment. Having been through the Consent Order process, it probably won't make you feel a whole lot better to know that, even with the fine, the SEP's, the external audits, the internal inspections, we still will not be 100% compliant. Our last audit of 100 labs still uncovered violations (albeit minor) in 66 of them. Yes they were immediately correctable (labels, hazard determination), but if it was the regulatory authority conducting the audit, it would show up as a repeat violation. Am I frustrated? Of course. It is the nature of the academic beast. Someone once said that trying to bring change to an institution of higher learning is like moving a graveyard- the residents don't help you very much. I'm already trying to guess what will happen to the letter that EPA is sending to college presidents this week- my guess is, that, if he/she even gets to see it, it will be routed to the Provost/Chancellor, over to a Director of Facilities, or maybe a Veep of Finance, and finally end up on my desk- not with any proactive comments, just to get it off their desks. I believe my article, "Fear & Loathing on Campuses after a RCRA Inspection" in the Journal of Chemical Health & Safety is being mailed out this week. Enjoy. Stefan Wawzyniecki, CIH, NRCC-CHO University of Connecticut (At least we have great basketball teams!) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:59:18 +0100 From: Anne Skinner Subject: Re: EPA targets New England colleges, universities In-Reply-To: <199903160620.AAA104924@saluki-mailsmtp.siu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I would like to suggest to those of you concerned about the EPA notice (and that should be 1000% of us; as Stefan said, it is not possible to pass an EPA inspection without flaw) that a good resource is CSHEMA, the campus safety arm of the National Safety Council. Their annual meetings (next one is in Madison, WI in July) are excellent chances to network. Website adddress: http://www.ualberta.ca/~rrichard/cshema.html Also, NEWSAFETY, the January meeting in New England, has been very helpful. I don't remember right now where the next one will be. Bulletin boards such as this one are a starting point, but getting together and talking brings out all sorts of ideas that haven't been previously considered. To quote (probably slightly wrongly) Ben Franklin: "We must all hang together or we shall most assuredly hang separately". Anne Skinner /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ Dr. Anne Skinner Chemistry Department, Williams College 47 Lab Campus Drive Williamstown, MA 01267 anne.r.skinner@williams.edu Phone: (413) 597-2285 Fax No: (413) 597-4116 /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ /O\ Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si Si \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ \O/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:33:03 -0700 From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: LABSAFETY-L Digest - 13 Mar 1999 to 15 Mar 1999 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dangerous assumption. Are you assuming the DI water is potable? Suitable for reagent use but probably not for drinking. > ---------- > From: Aziz M. Abu-khalaf[SMTP:amkhalaf@KSU.EDU.SA] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 9:47 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: LABSAFETY-L Digest - 13 Mar 1999 to 15 Mar 1999 > > What are you saying, Russ, is relative. Chemicals are hazardous > under certain conditions, and we should not isolate them from these > specific conditions. Steam, ice, contaminated water, hot water etc.. > can > be harmful, but only because they are within the hazardous range. We > dont > drink contaminated water, and we swim if we know how. > I believe that: things are safe unless it is proved to be hazardous. > > Aziz. > > >Reacts violently with certain alkali metals, causing explosions > >Corrodes steel rapidly > >Gaseous form causes serious burns > >Solid form can cause hypothermia > >Responsible for far more deaths per year than any other chemical > > > >(So don't mix it with sodium, put your hand in steam, hold ice for > long > >periods of time, or go swimming if you don't know how) > > > >As with all chemicals, its the dose that counts...... > > > >Russ Phifer > >WC Environmental > > > ********************************************************************** > ****** > ******* > Aziz M. Abu-Khalaf ***** Tel: 00966 1 4676894 > Chemical Engineering Department ***** Fax: 00966 1 4678770 > King Saud University ***** E-mail: > amkhalaf@ksu.edu.sa > PO Box 800 ***** > Riyadh 11421, Saudi Arabia ***** > ********************************************************************** > ****** > ******* > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 01:57:15 -0600 From: EH&S Compliance Subject: Re: LD-50 Water I couldn't agree more. I don't think it is a foolish reg in this case but a lack of understanding of what the reg actually says. We need to be careful about actually following the regs and not assuming something in them that is not there. DOT and Haz Com seem to be specific on what are toxic and highly toxic chemicals. Also remember, there is a difference between toxic and hazardous. I, as well, appreciate the companies that use the MSDS for distributing information. I have seen a few MSDS (oils, greases) that give information on their product through a MSDS and state on the MSDS that it is not hazardous according to the Haz Com standard. These have been very useful to me. Most of the problems I have seen in this area is someone trying to cover their legal backside and not actually have an eye toward safety. Safety then gets labeled as the boy crying wolf. Or another problem is someone relying on stories and not the regulation itself. In fact I have seen larger fines in DOT for mislabeling something than for not labeling it at all. (Our transportation department showed me the cases, I was surprised.) Rebecca Levins EH&S Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 -----Original Message----- From: Tony Haggerty [SMTP:techton@IHUG.CO.NZ] Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 7:27 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: LD-50 Water This whole discussion highlights the lack of understanding of what is a Hazardous Substance for legal transport, storage and use purposes. In all jurisdictions, there are, or should be, very specific criteria which determine whether a substance is flammable, toxic, corrosive etc. for the particular mode or country. Cheers Tony Attachment Converted: "c:\winnet\eudora\linda\attach\WINMAIL11.DAT" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:35:32 -0600 From: Peter Ashbrook Subject: Call for abstracts relating to OSHA Lab Standard Mime-Version: 1.0 At the summer American Chemical Society national meeting in New Orleans this August, the Division of Chemical Technicians is organizing a symposium entitled, "Safety Issues in Our Laboratories." As part of this symposium, I am trying to organize a poster symposium on compliance with the OSHA Laboratory Standard. This would consist of presentations on institutional and departmental strategies for compliance with the Standard, as well as chemical hygiene plans and training programs. This is your chance to show off your wonderful programs and/or learn from your colleagues. OSHA cares about the lab standard (consider the fine to Columbia University). Since I will not be able to attend the NACHO get together in Anaheim, perhaps someone could publicize this poster symposium at that time. IF YOU ARE WILLING TO MAKE A POSTER PRESENTATION, contact me by email and I will send you information about how to submit an abstract. The official deadline is April 26, so don't delay. The exact date for the poster session cannot be pinned down at this time, but will be in the August 22-26 time frame--hopefully towards the beginning of the week. This overall "Safety Issues..." symposium will also be cosponsored by the Division of Chemical Health and Safety and the Young Chemists Committee. If you wish to present a paper rather than a poster, an abstract needs to be submitted to D. Richard Cobb (drcobb@kodak.com) by April 1, 1999. I suggest contacting Mr. Cobb before filling out your abstract, even if you already know how to do it. Peter C. Ashbrook, CHMM, Assistant Director Chemical Safety Section Division of Environmental Health and Safety University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 217/244-9278 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:07:39 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Subject: Published ANSI Z590 excerpts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those interested we have published a review article with substantial excerpts from the ANSI Z590 standard. Included are comments from National Safety Council. ASSE declined comment pending closure of comment period. Link to article is on our home page http://www.safetyinfo.com Regards & Best Wishes Marc Neuffer Safety Info.Com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:40:09 -0300 From: "Aziz M. Abu-khalaf" Subject: DI water Mime-Version: 1.0 On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:33:03 -0700 Ben Greene wrote: >>Dangerous assumption. Are you assuming the DI water is potable? Suitable for reagent use but probably not for drinking.>> Where the assumption is? I don not assume any thing. Here comes the role of labs, investigators, researchers, safety officers and all other institutions which accumualte that heavy literature about chemicals. There it is decided which is hazardous and which is safe. Aziz. **************************************************************************** ******* Aziz M. Abu-Khalaf ***** Tel: 00966 1 4676894 Chemical Engineering Department ***** Fax: 00966 1 4678770 King Saud University ***** E-mail: amkhalaf@ksu.edu.sa PO Box 800 ***** Riyadh 11421, Saudi Arabia ***** **************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:54:31 -0500 From: Jeff Wawrzeniak Subject: Laboratory capabilities and analytical methods Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, I would like to inquire if anyone knows of a method for analyzing or a laboratory that is capable of analyzing for: 1) 1H-benzotriazole, and 2) SiO2 dissolved in DI water. We are trying to determine what residue concentration may be remaining in a system after filtration to prevent any possible contact by personnel acquiring the water reservoir and associated parts of the system. Please respond directly. Thanks in advance. Jeff Wawrzeniak IH FAA Technical Center ph:609-485-6896 fx:609-485-6102 email: jeff_wawrzeniak@admin.tc.faa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:16:37 -0700 From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Anaheim Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Fellow NACHOs, I will not be able to see you Sunday in Anaheim after all. Have a great time, Teresa Robertson, CCHO CSUB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:34:50 -0500 From: Herbert Carpenter Subject: New Member Hello, I have just joined the list and was asked to send a note of introduction to the membership. My name is Herb Carpenter and I am the Safety and Security Officer (Chemical Hygiene, Radiation Protection, Biosafety, Industrial Hygiene, and Environmental Compliance) for the US Army Crime Lab, located at Fort Gillem in metropolitan Atlanta. We accept criminal cases from the DoD investigative agencies of all four services and their world-wide field offices. I am a Certified Industrial Hygienist, Certified Hazardous Materials Manager, and Registered Environmental Manager. Educationally, I went to Emory for my MPH in Environmental and Occupational Health and my undergraduate degrees were in biology and geology. I'm pleased to have found this resource. In particular, we are currently in the process of building a new laboratory and I am eager for feedback from members who have recently been through the pre-construction safety design review process for chemical and biological laboratories. Herb Carpenter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:14:52 -0300 Reply-To: damar@wkve.com.br From: Damaris Silveira Duarte Subject: water table MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, In our University we have a new Organic Chemistry lab. When the workers made the perfuration to built the dejects drain, they found a very large water table. The work was stopped and I tried to find some information about how to avoid the water contamination. By the way, I'm only a Chemistry worried about this kind of pollution with no experience about lab safety. And we don't have anyone with this, here. Of course, solvents or reagents are deposited in containers , but sometimes, when we wash lab materials, is impossible to avoid small amounts going through to the sink. As we don't have a good and efficient enviromental laws here, in Brasil, I couldn't find any information about this subject. As the amounts of reagents are small, am I making "much ado about"? Or it is so serious as I suppose? Please, if you have any suggestions... Thanks Damaris Dâmaris Silveira Duarte Centro de Ciências Exatas e Tecnológicas -CECET Universidade Vale do Rio Doce - UNIVALE rua Moreira Sales, 850, Vila Bretas Governador Valadares -Minas Gerais - Brasil CEP 35032-130 Tel: 55 033 2251717 ext.313 Fax: 55 033 2213185 e-mail: damaris@univale.br damar@wkve.com.br ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:33:07 -0500 From: "Dr. Linda A. Swihart" Subject: fined for large chemical cache??? Mime-Version: 1.0 A co-worker has accused me of forwarding email to him (months ago) about a university in Hawaii being fined for having a large cache of chemicals. I don't remember this at all. I'm figuring either he's mistaken about where he got it from or I'm going bonkers. It's a toss up. Does it sound familiar to anyone here? Thanks, Linda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:35:51 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Lab coat material In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990318133307.0089abe0@postoffice.purdue.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Anyone out there have thoughts on lab coat composition? I'm putting together a bulk order for reusable lab coats. I have 100% cotton, 65/35 poly/cotton blend, and 80/20 poly cotton blend to choose from. This is Texas and old buildings, which means that labs get warm (which is a big reason that we have so many people in shorts, etc.). Although an all-cotton coat is comfortable and won't melt to the wearer's skin, it's not as durable as blends. 50/50 and 65/35 blends do OK for comfort and durability, and aren't too bad in fire (i.e., in terms of melting), but I'm concerned about the 80/20 blends. I haven't had much experience with that composition: does anyone know anything about 80/20 comfort or shrink-wrap tendency? Recommendations? In case someone's curious, I briefly considered Nomex (with which I am familiar), but decided to pass due to discomfort and cost (why pay a lot if people won't wear it?). Feel free to respond off-line. I'll post results after a week or so. Thanks, JNR Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:52:48 -0500 From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: Lab coat material In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I can't speak to the 80/20 blend, but I favor 100% cotton for flame resistance and comfort. The polyester blends also seem to stain more readily with some substances. A peculiar argument in favor of cotton: one thing I like about cotton is the tendency for holes to appear after washing where drops of acid have hit it. (Acid turns the cellulose to water-soluble sugars.) Though this obviously supports your argument that cotton is less durable, the holes provide compelling feedback to wearers about their chemical handling techniques, and may serve as an indicator to CHOs and supervisors that extra PPE (like plastic aprons) and/or better technique is needed. One other suggestion: Avoid coat designs that feature slots to allow easy access to one's pants pockets. Reaching into pockets during lab activities should probably be discouraged, and the slots tend to stay open, leaving them available to snag on things and to offer opportunities for splashes to slip through. Don >Anyone out there have thoughts on lab coat composition? > >I'm putting together a bulk order for reusable lab coats. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College| Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:17:50 -0700 From: Sharyn Bake Subject: Re: EPA targets New England colleges, universities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello again Barbara, How's it coming with setting up a program? Did you have a chance to check out my documents. Let me know if I can help you. I think my university would be very reasonable about costs to loan me to you for a day or two and or consult long distance via email, phone etc. We could certainly negotiate something cheaper than paying some consultant from the private sector who may or may not know much about collegiate settings. Regards, Sharyn Baker Instructor Health and Safety Division University of Colorado Health Sciences Center Denver, Colorado 80262 Email: sharyn.baker@uchsc.edu Office phone: (303) 315-8003 > ---------- > From: Barbara E. Liedl > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 11:15 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: EPA targets New England colleges, universities > > Hi to one and all. > > I just finished reading Nick Pinizzotto's message about the EPA targetting > colleges and universities and I feel like I just saw my worst nightmare > come true. Why is it my nightmare? I guess it is something I have thought > would happen to us first. Here are my reasons: > > 1) Lack of compliance with standards. Our institution is so far out of > compliance it isn't funny. You don't want to see our chemical hygiene plan > or safety plan for our building or the whole institution. I am repeatedly > told that "we are too small and no one will come and inspect us". Yes we > are small (student population of 1,300), but we are just starting a > renovation/addition project for our science building. The whole campus was > inspected 2 years ago by EPA and had problems identified that have yet to > be corrected. It isn't funny, but very few people are taking this > seriously. > > 2) Lack of information about standards or requirements. We don't have a > safety officer or chemical hygiene officer for the campus. All we have is > a > stockroom manager who has one year under her belt dealing with a stockroom > that would make all of your cringe if you saw it (I can supply digital > photos if you want), keeping 10 professors happy with stockroom > performance, demo set up and lab support, supervising 6 or 7 students and > was given no additional training in chemical hygiene, compliance or safety > beyond a biology degree. Yet she has the additional job of "Environmental > Compliance Officer" AND I am her supervisor. I really do feel lost in the > regulations and standards and I can only imagine what our stockroom > manager > feels when she is supposed to be in charge of parts of the chemical > hygiene > plan and training. > > So, we are asking for help, guidance or assistance on where to start. > Someone out there must have been in the same situation at one time. Also, > we did consider it, but leaving our jobs is out of the question (at least > til the end of the semester), so we need to find some way to solve these > problems. > > What do we have? We have searched the web and have found an amazing > stockpile of chemical hygiene plans. We do have a chemical inventory list > in FileMaker Pro that we are planning to move to Chemventory by Flinn > Scientific. We have checked MSDS sheets based on the chemical inventory > list, but it is a binder based system and we are probably missing some. > Our > nurse has a great written policy and training procedure for blood borne > pathogens. But as far as we can tell only counselors and cleaning staff > are trained in this area. We do have a hazardous waste room and do use > secondary containment and have it inventoried and labelled appropriately. > BUT THAT IS ABOUT IT! > > Right now I think we are only going to focus on developing the chemical > hygiene plan and policies for our building which houses Biology, > Chemistry, > and Physics. At some point, we need to include the Physical Plant, Art and > Theatre departments. Any suggestions on books, videos, CDs, agencies, > contacts, plans of attack, etc.? Are there organizations we need to join > as individuals or an institution? Any suggestions on dealing with the > "higher ups"? > > Also, what do other "Environmental Compliance Officers" do? I have no idea > where the title came from on her job description. Personally I think it is > ploy by some of our Physical Plant staff who would like to push our > stockroom manager into being the Safety Officer for the whole campus!!! > > Thanks for your assistance and the great discussion list. > > Barbara Liedl > liedlb@central.edu > Assistant Professor of Biology > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:44:17 -0330 From: Geraldine Kennedy Subject: Re: Lab coat material In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello NACHOs, I'm going to try this again. The last time I attempted to respond to the list, my message was bounced back to me. First I should introduce myself. My name is Geraldine Kennedy. I'm an Environmental Officer at Memorial Univeristy of Newfoundland (Canada). I am part of a four person Safety section for a university population of 15,000. Amoung my many hats are Radiation Safety Technician, Hazardous Materials Control Officer, Lab Safety/WHMIS/TDG Trainer, and Recycling Coordinator. From my understanding of the term, I guess I am also the CHO (we don't use that designation up here). I've only been with the safety office for three years but I've worked in various laboratory settings on campus for 10 years or so. With regards to the lab coat thread ... in our chemistry labs we allow only 100% cotton lab coats because of the use of open flames from bunsen burners. The polyester blends are more acid resistant but the burn hazard is too great. I once witnessed an incident whereby a polyester-blended lab coat (I don't know the %'s) disintergrated into a blob of plastic from an propane gas flash burn. Luckly for the indivdual involved, he was quick enough to tear of the coat before it melted into his clothing or skin. I wish I had kept the coat to use in training sessions. It was one of those things you just had to see to appreciate. (The individual suffered third degree burns to his hands, lost the hair off his arms and all his facial hair, even his eyebrows, vanished. The researcher for the lab had insisted on using flame serilization inside a bench top UV hood. A gas build up occured, which was ingnited by a spark of static as the lab worker touched the metal door handles on the cabinet.) Geraldine gkennedy@morgan.ucs.mun.ca ******************************************************************************* Geraldine Kennedy Safety and Environmental Services Environmental Officer Department of Facitilies Management Tel: (709)737-4320 Memorial University of Newfoundland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:57:40 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Subject: WorldSafety.Com + SafetyInfo.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For immediate release: "Improved accessibility to Safety Communities and Online Resources" We are pleased to announce that an alliance between two leading online occupational health and safety resource services, WorldSafety.Com and Safety Info.Com, has been forged to better serve Safety Professionals around the globe. **Our joint mission: Helping build a safer, more secure world! ** To accomplish this we have joined forces to continually provide and improve free communication & information for the safety community. Now you can visit our web sites to join other Safety Professionals in the peer group of your choice AND find the up to date resources that will help you build a safer, more secure workplace. Free Communication & Information is our commitment to a safer, more secure world and "the key" to your continued success! Best and Safest Regards, =========\ Marc Neuffer Director-interSafe www.safetyinfo.com e-mail: safety1@localaccess.net =========================\ Mike Blazedell / Founder http://www.WorldSafety.com email: blazedell@worldsafety.com Moderator: -SafetyJobs Alert Service -SafetyForum -Health/Safety/Fire Webmasters Assoc. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:20:54 -0800 From: Terri Hellman Subject: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning, The EH&S Department at UNR is working to put together a system which would asses risk and be able to communicate that thought the use of door cards. One thing that we feel in necessary is to weight various categories, (example: how important in chemical storage in relation to training). We are looking for documentation, hopefully statistical, that will support the weighting of the different categories. Ideally this would rate x% of laboratory accidents attributed to something like improper storage, y% to failure to use proper PPE and so forth. If any of you have any such information it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance, Terri Honea Chemical Hygiene Specialist University of Nevada, Reno ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:26:14 -0500 From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Lab coat material Comments: To: jrubin@mail.utexas.edu In-Reply-To: <"v03110709b3173c5faa85(a)(091)128.83.215.138(093)*"@MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't know much about "shrink wrap" tendencies of the 80/20. All I can tell you is we tried them in the clinical labs when we were first dealing with BBP Standard. The lab people were like a bunch of panting dogs! You said TEXAS Heat? I wouldn't even pursue the 80/20's! Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:02:46 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Risk assessment In-Reply-To: <36F27966.829E6ED1@scs.unr.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 One of the first things our new EHS Director, Erle Janssen, did when he arrived was to start the process of converting our lab inspection program from calendar-based to risk-based. Of course, a necessary step is quantifying risk. There are numerous categories, including past inspection results, rad/chem/bio inventory, building construction and protective equipment, safety infrastructure in the department. We're in the process of assigning numerical values to different labs to provide an objective basis for inspection frequency, which also will give PIs a way to lower their risk. Even though we haven't actually tried to do so (really), we found that our nastiest labs do indeed come out with high "point" totals (high score does not win in this arena). This is still a work in progress but we'll be happy to share what we've come up with when it's done. Onward, JNR >Good morning, >The EH&S Department at UNR is working to put together a system which >would asses risk and be able to communicate that thought the use of door >cards. One thing that we feel in necessary is to weight various >categories, (example: how important in chemical storage in relation to >training). We are looking for documentation, hopefully statistical, >that will support the weighting of the different categories. Ideally >this would rate x% of laboratory accidents attributed to something like >improper storage, y% to failure to use proper PPE and so forth. If any >of you have any such information it would be greatly appreciated. Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:30:56 -0500 From: Jeff Wawrzeniak Subject: Member intro Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, I have just joined the list and was asked to send a note of introduction to the membership. My name is Jeff Wawrzeniak and I am an Industrial Hygienist at the FAA Technical Center Aviation Research and Development facility in Atlantic city, New Jersey. I am also heavily involved on the safety side of the house with our comprehensive training programs (fall protection, respiratory protection, chemical hygiene, confined space, heavy equipment, hearing conservation, etc.), site safety audits, JSA's, health and safety plan generation assistance, and accident investigations. We have one of the best aviation security laboratories in the nation on site that performs a wide range of proficiency testing, validation, and threat control for airport security and explosives detection. We are also working in conjunction with Boeing to test pavement components under regulated conditions to determine breakdown potential, durability, and stress fracture progression. I am a Certified Environmental Trainer and Associate Safety Professional. I went to Temple for my MS in Environmental and Occupational Health, and my undergraduate time was spent at Indiana University of Pennsylvania in their OSH program. Looking forward to corresponding with you and working towards some common goals. Jeff Wawrzeniak, MS, CET, ASP IH FAA Technical Center Atlantic city, NJ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:05:02 -0500 From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Interesting safety meeting ideas Mime-Version: 1.0 I coordinate the monthly safety meetings for our department. Our department consists mostly of teachnicians (from high school to 2 yrs. college chemistry) and PhD chemists all with over 10 years experience with our company. They are very bored by our traditional safety meeting format. Plus, they've all heard the information before, usually at least yearly. I need help!! How can I liven up the meetings? Any great games or other gimmicks I could try?? Julie O'Brien Chemist PCR, Inc. PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 ext. 232 Fax 352-373-7503 afn35210@afn.org Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville PO Box 5951 Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:19:59 -0500 From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Interesting safety meeting ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We do it on a rotating basis. Everyone in R&D, from techs to Group Leaders, gets to take a turn putting on a meeting. We don't restrict the meetings to on the job safety either- things like frostbite and lawn mower safety have also been done. Our EHS dept. has a lot of videos, some of which are applicable. Having everyone do the monthly meetings gives us a fresh viewpoint every month. Also tends to self-regulate the attention, since we all know if we give some a hard time, they will give us one next time. Hope this helps! Bob "SEMPER ADVENTURUS!!!" Robert L. Burns R&D Group Leader Specialty Chemicals Division RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 815 333 4805 email rburns@bigfoot.com -----Original Message----- From: Julie O'Brien To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 13:04 Subject: Interesting safety meeting ideas >I coordinate the monthly safety meetings for our department. Our department >consists mostly of teachnicians (from high school to 2 yrs. college >chemistry) and PhD chemists all with over 10 years experience with our >company. They are very bored by our traditional safety meeting format. Plus, >they've all heard the information before, usually at least yearly. I need >help!! How can I liven up the meetings? Any great games or other gimmicks I >could try?? > >Julie O'Brien >Chemist >PCR, Inc. >PO Box 1466 >Gainesville, FL 32602 >352-376-8246 ext. 232 >Fax 352-373-7503 >afn35210@afn.org > >Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer >EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville >PO Box 5951 >Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:04:43 -0600 From: James Hermann Subject: Re: Lab coat material Comments: To: jrubin@mail.utexas.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We require all our lab workers to wear Nomex, even in Texas. Show your lab rats (of which I am one) the DuPont lab tests on Nomex clothing and they will not want to wear anything else. Check out the picture of the race car driver who survived being engulfed in flames due to his Nomex jumpsuit. Ask the actors who filmed Back Draft. Ask fire fighters that use Nomex underwear. The cost? We got tired of finding people with their clothing melted to their skin (twice was enough) or living wicks for burning solvents (twice was enough). What cost? What discomfort? ;)> Jim -----Original Message----- From: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List [mailto:LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU]On Behalf Of Jeff Rubin Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 5:36 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Lab coat material Anyone out there have thoughts on lab coat composition? I'm putting together a bulk order for reusable lab coats. I have 100% cotton, 65/35 poly/cotton blend, and 80/20 poly cotton blend to choose from. This is Texas and old buildings, which means that labs get warm (which is a big reason that we have so many people in shorts, etc.). Although an all-cotton coat is comfortable and won't melt to the wearer's skin, it's not as durable as blends. 50/50 and 65/35 blends do OK for comfort and durability, and aren't too bad in fire (i.e., in terms of melting), but I'm concerned about the 80/20 blends. I haven't had much experience with that composition: does anyone know anything about 80/20 comfort or shrink-wrap tendency? Recommendations? In case someone's curious, I briefly considered Nomex (with which I am familiar), but decided to pass due to discomfort and cost (why pay a lot if people won't wear it?). Feel free to respond off-line. I'll post results after a week or so. Thanks, JNR Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:47:18 -0700 From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: Interesting safety meeting ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Julie - I think your request is of the highest excellence and the responses may be utilized by the many of us in similar positions. I, for one, help to coordinate safety meetings lasting typically up to 1/2 hour for about 30 chemists (all degrees) and chemical technicians, usually bi-weekly. What would be most useful for me to respond to you is, what is the typical length of the meetings you have? Ben > ---------- > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:56:12 -0500 From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: Interesting safety meeting ideas Mime-Version: 1.0 What would be most useful for me to respond to you >is, what is the typical length of the meetings you have? Our meetings are long, usually 1-2 hours. We also cover some general staff issues during the meeting, but that usually only lasts about 15 minutes. Julie O'Brien Chemist PCR, Inc. PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 ext. 232 Fax 352-373-7503 afn35210@afn.org Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville PO Box 5951 Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:12:46 -0500 From: Kathleen Gallagher Organization: Chubb Services Corporation Subject: static electricity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have any thoughts on the need to/and the best method to ground 5 gallon plastic containers (carboys) being used to collect HPLC waste coming off a fraction collector (predominantly acetonitrile and definitely flammable). This is an overnight process and the flow is very slow. The waste container is covered with parafilm and the small tube from the collector is inserted into a small hole. The carboy sits out of the hood in a secondary container. What are other people doing??? Answer off line if you prefer. Kathleen -- Kathleen Gallagher mailto:kgallagher@chubb.com Chubb Services Corporation ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:36:25 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Re: Interesting safety meeting ideas In-Reply-To: <199903191856.NAA07258@freenet4.afn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Bob's suggestion about having each person eventually present works. We learn a little more about our co-workers' abilities and backgrounds, and everyone develops useful presentation skills. Letting topics expand from a "traditional" agenda broadens perspectives and extends our applications. Have you considered inviting outside speakers as well? Maybe representatives from your local EMS provider, fire dept./hazmat team, maybe a toxicologist, maybe an ER doc who can tell you how ER staff manage chemical injuries and what they need from you? Maybe even inviting an EPA rep or state equivalent (just watch where that person goes...)? If nothing else, even adults like to see big shiny trucks with lights and sirens. Buena suerte, JNR Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:27:51 -0500 From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: static electricity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Plastic is a non-conductor and therefore it can't be grounded. You could, I suppose, put a metal rod into the solution and ground that. Generally, HPLC solutions are aqueous and don't need grounding, even if they have a lot of aceto and are flammable. You only need to ground when things are dry and static can build. In a wet atmosphere, no static. -----Original Message----- From: Kathleen Gallagher To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 14:15 Subject: static electricity >Does anyone have any thoughts on the need to/and the best method to >ground 5 gallon plastic containers (carboys) being used to collect HPLC >waste coming off a fraction collector (predominantly acetonitrile and >definitely flammable). This is an overnight process and the flow is >very slow. The waste container is covered with parafilm and the small >tube from the collector is inserted into a small hole. The carboy sits >out of the hood in a secondary container. What are other people >doing??? Answer off line if you prefer. Kathleen > >-- >Kathleen Gallagher mailto:kgallagher@chubb.com >Chubb Services Corporation ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:38:37 -0800 From: Ray Campbell Subject: Re: static electricity In-Reply-To: <36F2A1AD.CF2A9CD5@chubb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 We have been testing plastic for a static issue and have found 5,000 volt charges! Thank God there are no amps to push. I suggest that you definitely ground the container and/or switch to glass on an anti static mat. Ray Campbell REA CCHO 310-257-1080 At 02:12 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone have any thoughts on the need to/and the best method to >ground 5 gallon plastic containers (carboys) being used to collect HPLC >waste coming off a fraction collector (predominantly acetonitrile and >definitely flammable). This is an overnight process and the flow is >very slow. The waste container is covered with parafilm and the small >tube from the collector is inserted into a small hole. The carboy sits >out of the hood in a secondary container. What are other people >doing??? Answer off line if you prefer. Kathleen > >-- >Kathleen Gallagher mailto:kgallagher@chubb.com >Chubb Services Corporation ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:03:56 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Re: Lab coat material In-Reply-To: <000401be7232$f87808e0$f0321780@jwhmar> Mime-Version: 1.0 >We require all our lab workers to wear Nomex, even in Texas. > >Show your lab rats (of which I am one) the DuPont lab tests on Nomex >clothing and they will not want to wear anything else. Check out the >picture of the race car driver who survived being engulfed in flames due to >his Nomex jumpsuit. Ask the actors who filmed Back Draft. Ask fire >fighters that use Nomex underwear. > >The cost? We got tired of finding people with their clothing melted to >their skin (twice was enough) or living wicks for burning solvents (twice >was enough). What cost? What discomfort? ;)> I've had a lot of experience with Nomex and similar synthetic fabrics (e.g., PBI) and am sold on their protective properties; I'm also aware if its limitations. I've worn it for drills and actual response for 12 years and taught rookie firefighters and paramedics about protective clothing (I actually use the DuPont Nomex videos as teaching aids for those classes), but it's still not a perfect fix. The added heat stress of wearing Nomex uniforms under "turnout gear" has made some fire departments, as well as individual firefighters, reconsider Nomex station-wear, let alone Nomex underwear(!). Unfortunately, students are immortal (I guess that makes faculty "super-immortal"), and all the nasty pictures - I have plenty - are still going to be of "someone else." I'm a big believer in "better to sweat than bleed" and I'd love to have people wear Nomex lab coats over long pants and shirts, with steel-toed shoes. For what it's worth, I can't remember the last time we had a thermal burn reported (not for lack of trying - we've had a few small lab fires), whereas we've had several minor chemical burns. I'm by no means saying that burn prevention isn't important, but I do need to look at what happens in our labs and what effective protection means. Would I wear a Nomex lab coat if I worked in a lab? You bet. Do I think people here would avail themselves of that protection if offered or even required? For the most part, no. Can I force them to? Nope. A general, albeit tangential, consideration: as with ballistic vests (all our field medics with EMS were issued those - heartwarming, isn't it?), fire-resistant clothing can provide the wearer with a false sense of security. The same is true for sprinkler systems, showers, etc. It requires additional effort on the part of safety and lab personnel to ensure that users don't think that PPE and safety equipment replace prudent practices, judgment, and common sense - they don't prevent accidents, they just reduce the consequences. Are safety features dangerous? NO! Do they require appropriate orientation like anything else? YES! Either that, or I'm the only one who's been asked why we had to be so careful with flammable chemicals now that there was a sprinkler system on line. JNR Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:01:41 -0500 From: Bob Burns Subject: another hazard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a piece of an email I got from my daughter today. She's a grad student (ABD) and instructor in Comp. Lit at Penn State. Not a lab safety problem, but a problem. What do you academic types do about this sort of thing? "An insane person came into my classroom today and flipped out! We had to call security, who weren't much help. Apparently he does this all the time but no one on campus has been able to do anything about it, which seems kind of silly. How is that possible? But he was pushing me and being bizarre so they might be able to do something about him now. Apparently physically pushing someone is an important step." Bob "SEMPER ADVENTURUS!!!" Robert L. Burns R&D Group Leader Specialty Chemicals Division RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 815 333 4805 email rburns@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:10:36 -0700 From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: Interesting safety meeting ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I also agree with Jeff and Bob; people really take some pride and ownership. Here's a few other approaches I have tried: 1) Spill/release scenarios - divide staff into managable groups and display an overhead describing a spill scenario your people should relate to (examples...person walks by a hydrogen cylinder and notices the paper labels on adjoining cylinders have smoldered and their hair is suddenly on fire; experiment erupts spewing fuming sulfuric acid (or something else interesting) within a fume hood but there is no exposure or release outside the hood). Provide each group with a blank transparency and a marker. Have the groups determine the response/notification steps to be taken in no more than 5-6 sentances. Each group representative presents their group's collective response, then you display the "textbook" response and initiate a discussion. Time permitting, show the Howard Hughes video or other on emergency response. 2) Safety audit finding discussions - If you conduct a safety audit or are conducted by someone else, summarize results. Then using the major finding of the audit, show a video or your own slide presentation that relates to the subject. Example (last audit several "satellite" chemical storage areas were found; the interior of a cabinet was found corroded due to storage of acid in a non-resistant area). Then show the Howard Hughes Medical video on chemical storage. Follow with discussion. (The Howard videos are short and to the point) 3) If you have a photo department or are one yourself get some 35 mm's of your choice of various scenes (a mixture of mock and real may be appropriate) at your facility. Typically interesting are chemical storage areas, people's ideas of labels (that bottle labeled "ethyl"), PPE (or lack thereof), the frayed electrical cord of the heating mantle used to reflux a flammable liquid, housekeeping (or lack thereof), fume hood clutters, the rusty old can of "diethylether", stained lab coats, acid-eaten chairs, elevated storage, etc. In the right light a carefully cut piece of aluminum foil makes a nice Hg "spill", and that red liquid plastic for coating pliers handles makes great "blood" when you paint it on a vinyl glove (good for mock illustrating PPE selection consequences when holding a piece of broken glassware). Get slides or transparancies of these and use them in an interactive "what's right or wrong with this picture" discussion, especially if you have had an incident or close call or someone else did which you can relate this material to. This type of material is as much fun to prepare for as it is to present, and can go a long way (many meetings) if you have the right variety and themes. I also found it very useful to organize this material along the lines of the required elements of the lab standard information, training, and applicable details requirements in 1910.1450(f). Ben < > Bob's suggestion about having each person eventually present works. > We > learn a little more about our co-workers' abilities and backgrounds, > and > everyone develops useful presentation skills. Letting topics expand > from a > "traditional" agenda broadens perspectives and extends our > applications. > > Have you considered inviting outside speakers as well? Maybe > representatives from your local EMS provider, fire dept./hazmat team, > maybe > a toxicologist, maybe an ER doc who can tell you how ER staff manage > chemical injuries and what they need from you? Maybe even inviting an > EPA > rep or state equivalent (just watch where that person goes...)? If > nothing > else, even adults like to see big shiny trucks with lights and sirens. > > Buena suerte, > > JNR > Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS > College of Natural Sciences G2500 > W.C. Hogg Building > University of Texas at Austin > Austin, TX 78712-1199 > (512) 471-6176 (O) > (512) 471-4998 (F) > jrubin@mail.utexas.edu > http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ > > "The opinions of Dr. Rubin are not meant to offend anyone unless > otherwise > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:40:57 -0800 From: Debbie Decker Subject: Re: another hazard In-Reply-To: <006b01be724b$b1874ae0$0100007f@BBURNS> Mime-Version: 1.0 At 04:01 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote: >Here's a piece of an email I got from my daughter today. She's a grad >student (ABD) and instructor in Comp. Lit at Penn State. Not a lab safety >problem, but a problem. What do you academic types do about this sort of >thing? > >"An insane person came into my classroom today and flipped out! We had to >call security, who weren't much help. Apparently he does this all the time >but no one on campus has been able to do anything about it, which seems >kind of silly. How is that possible? But he was pushing me and being >bizarre so they might be able to do something about him now. Apparently >physically pushing someone is an important step." If she's an employee (and from your description, it sounds as though she is), she would be afforded protection under the violence in the workplace standard. It's a Cal/OSHA regulation - someone help me out if there isn't a Fed equivalent. The standard requires employers to develop and implement procedures to protect employees from violence - ee to ee, client to ee, visitor to ee. Requirements such as who to call and when to call them and what they are supposed to do when called are to be spelled out. Ees are supposed to have training on what to do and when to do it. There is a provision for degrees of response to degrees of violence (verbal, pushing, weapon, etc). At a former employer, I was shown a video describing workplace violence and what my rights as an ee were. The video had some strategies for dealing with a (potentially) violent person and how to protect oneself until help arrived. Then a description of the program at my workplace and a one-page summary of what to do and when to do it. The er took it fairly seriously because of the number of strangers/clients that the ees could come in contact with and the potential for those strangers to receive bad news that might cause an unfortunate reaction. The program was run through human resources, not EH&S, with participation from our security folks. Does this help? I'd probably suggest she check with her human resources folks and the campus security types (higher on the food chain). Her supervisor should know about this and she should communicate it in writing, too. She doesn't have to put up with it and neither should the learning environment for her students be disrupted. AND she shouldn't have to be physically assaulted before someone does something ! While the individual does have a right to be at a public university, the individual does not have the right to be physically and verbally abusive. Debbie Debbie Decker EH&S UCDavis (530)754-7964 dmdecker@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:50:58 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Re: another hazard In-Reply-To: <006b01be724b$b1874ae0$0100007f@BBURNS> Mime-Version: 1.0 We've had two of those that I'm aware of. What do academic types do about it? Mostly they hone their avoidance techniques. I had a prof express concern about a potentially "unstable" grad student who had just finished up. I asked if people were concerned about potential violence and was told, "No, but I wouldn't be surprised if she came in one night and set the building on fire" (no, I'm not making this up, and no, I don't know how these people define "violence"). We involved university lawyers (refreshingly practical in this case) and police (ditto) and discussed options. What it came down to was that no one who actually had supervisory responsibility over this person was willing to do anything. The issue went from annoying to "life-threatening" overnight and back again. I never did find out how much was real and how much was an effort to deflect responsibility. Of course, ADA and the rights mentally ill to not have treatment "forced" on them has hindered as well. Before the arrows start coming, that simply means that attempts to address some social problems have overextended and produced unintended consequences. Why is a shove important? Now we've gone from "potential" to "actual" - even if it is simple assault. Of course, the best immediate solution to your daughter's concerns is for her to graduate. JNR >Here's a piece of an email I got from my daughter today. She's a grad >student (ABD) and instructor in Comp. Lit at Penn State. Not a lab safety >problem, but a problem. What do you academic types do about this sort of >thing? > >"An insane person came into my classroom today and flipped out! We had to >call security, who weren't much help. Apparently he does this all the time >but no one on campus has been able to do anything about it, which seems >kind of silly. How is that possible? But he was pushing me and being >bizarre so they might be able to do something about him now. Apparently >physically pushing someone is an important step." Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:07:26 -0500 From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: static electricity In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990319113531.00933140@solan.spp.varian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 > I suggest that you definitely >ground the container and/or switch to glass on an anti static mat. This is a tough issue, and I agree that grounding is likely achievable only by a metal chain or rod in the collecting container (which also connects to the source container and to a ground). Is glass in fact less of a static problem than plastic? I recall those demos as a kid where the instructor rubs a glass rod with a piece of wool to generate an impressive charge. Also, to tie in to the lab coat material discussion, does anyone know (or care to speculate) whether cotton presents less of a static build-up than polyester? My impression is that cotton is less subject to static, perhaps because it is more hydroscopic, but don't know if there is any real difference. Don ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:34:39 -0600 Reply-To: joey-michael@uiowa.edu From: Joey Michael Subject: Re: another hazard In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990319134057.007d1370@scarlet.ucdavis.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings, This is my first time here so take it easy on me :-). I am a health physicist for the University of Iowa and spend most of my time involved with radiation safety. However our department is trying more and more cross-training so I have been involved on a limited basis with chemical spills. I am also a volunteer member of my county's local hazmat team. As far as disruptive people in the workplace, our institution has a policy that says an individual can't disrupt work or learning. The campus security has full arrest powers. So I generally think this is an issue to get either security or the police involved in - whether the threats are verbal or physical. It is probably always best to at least get things documented. Now on a somewhat unrelated note, I have been asked by my hazmat team to gather information about photoionization detectors (PIDs). Our local hazmat team wishes to purchase one and are trying to solicit information from people who have experience with PIDs. I have a questionnaire that I can send to anyone willing to fill it out. Its easy enough to find the vendors advertisements, but I really prefer info from real world users. Please respond to me privately if you could help. Thanks in advance, Joey Michael mailto:joey-michael@uiowa.edu University of Iowa Health Protection Office ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:51:20 -0500 From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: another hazard In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 We've heard some very thoughtful responses on the problem of workplace violence from Jeff and Debbie. For what it's worth, violence is the leading cause of workplace fatalities for women in the US - most of whic occurs in retail settings (armed robbery). I'm disappointed to hear that the police were not called in by Public Safety. In addition to the possibility of an assault arrest (which may or may not stick), trespassing is a slam dunk, especially if this was a known problem person, who I presume was not a student or otherwise in the building on official business. Our buildings feature tiny signs informing folks that they are not public buildings. The only purpose of such signs is to allow for enforcement of trespassing laws. While none of this is a permanent solution (trespassing doesn't exactly carry a life sentence), a vigorous response helps set a tone of what is and isn't acceptable in the community. Don My 2 cents: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:09:28 -0800 From: Debbie Decker Subject: Re: static electricity In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 At 05:07 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote: >> I suggest that you definitely >>ground the container and/or switch to glass on an anti static mat. Is static _really_ a problem in this application? I don't know that it is. You can purchase conductive rubber containers that can be grounded but they are quite expensive and not very satisfactory for solvents. >Also, to tie in to the lab coat material discussion, does anyone know (or >care to speculate) whether cotton presents less of a static build-up than >polyester? My impression is that cotton is less subject to static, >perhaps because it is more hydroscopic, but don't know if there is any real >difference. When I worked in the explosives industry, synthetic fabrics, silks and wool were verboten, forbidden, ixnay because of the static build up. Cotton was the rule, from the skin out. Fabricators and powder workers wore cotton shop coats that had a metallized thread worked into them so that the coats were also conductive and could be grounded. In the lab, I wore rather disreputable cotton lab coats and all cotton clothing. Hope this helps, Debbie Debbie Decker EH&S UCDavis (530)754-7964 dmdecker@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:26:42 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Demos In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Another brainstorm invitation: We recently had a freestanding fumehood installed in one of our large chem lecture halls for lecture demos. Our demo program used to be horrendous. Last year we had a Br release during a Br + Al demo, and the prof (a full Prof, tenured, etc.) couldn't see why it was a problem. Same thing repeated a few months later (at which point I discovered "the list" and removed it). Once the dept. administration was aware of the problem, they acted: 1) Hired a full-time demo coordinator (PhD no less!) who brought order from chaos 2) Cleaned out the really nasty demo prep area 3) Purchased a "portable" fumehood (I advised them to either get a hood or start using videos for the more hazardous stuff) I know that the freestanding models aren't great - it's filtration rather than ventilation, and it's not what I would've preferred, but it should work with prudence. The idea is to put a couple cameras in the hood to project the demos to the audience through the newly-wired AV system (pretty neat, actually). QUESTION: any experience/suggestions for the cameras? I'm assuming that a fiber-optic videocamera would work best, with the electronic "guts" elsewhere. I'm still concerned about clouding/corrosion, but I'm no expert - which didn't stop someone from asking for my opinion. Thoughts? I feel like I've been spending most of the day writing to the list (which means you've spent most of the day reading what I write...) - there are certainly worse ways to spend time. Thanks for the responses - some interesting threads. JNR Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:00:09 -0500 From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: Demos In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 >QUESTION: any experience/suggestions for the cameras? I'm assuming that a >fiber-optic videocamera would work best, with the electronic "guts" >elsewhere. I'm still concerned about clouding/corrosion, but I'm no expert >- which didn't stop someone from asking for my opinion. Thoughts? > A fiber optic camera would be the ideal, in terms of ignition source and corrosion protection. I recently had a demo of one with a <1/4" diameter, waterproof, titanium coated, flexible probe that was completely articulating by remote control. the actual camera was located in the tip, and fiber optics were used for illuminaiton. Very impressive gadget and resolution, and only $17,000. ! (We were looking at it for duct inspections, and decided we were better served by hiring the sales rep to come use his equipment when needed, rather than buying our own. ) I suspect you could do quite well with a conventional video or closed circuit camera aimed through a clear plexiglass side panel on the hood. It might be good to install a small "window" on the hood so that the plexiglass [or tempered glass, for that matter] could be replaced periodically when scratched or etched. A polarizing filter could be used to prevent glare/reflections, but might require higher levels of illumination, or keep the camera in a box (paint it black inside) that abuts to the hood to shield it. As added insurance, keep a nearly clear filter, such as a "skylight" or "UV" filter on it to protect the lens if you're not using a polarizer. If your new AV system has the ability to project computer screen images, such as those used for Powerpoint presentations, you could possibly use a relatively inexpensive web cam to do the viewing, but you'll probably pay a price in resolution. Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College| Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:00:57 -0500 Reply-To: Bob Burns From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: another hazard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good points, Don. Penn State University Park campus is a city unto itself- about 40,000 students, and security is really the campus police who have full police powers. I advised my daughter to sign a complaint. Some of you may remember a few years ago a non-student came on campus with a rifle and shot several students- killed one, if I recall correctly. "HAPPINESS IS A WARM PUPPY!" Bob & Evelyn Burns Mill Hall, PA -----Original Message----- From: Don Abramowitz To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 8:18 PM Subject: Re: another hazard >We've heard some very thoughtful responses on the problem of workplace >violence from Jeff and Debbie. For what it's worth, violence is the >leading cause of workplace fatalities for women in the US - most of whic >occurs in retail settings (armed robbery). > >I'm disappointed to hear that the police were not called in by Public >Safety. In addition to the possibility of an assault arrest (which may or >may not stick), trespassing is a slam dunk, especially if this was a known >problem person, who I presume was not a student or otherwise in the >building on official business. Our buildings feature tiny signs >informing folks that they are not public buildings. The only purpose of >such signs is to allow for enforcement of trespassing laws. While none >of this is a permanent solution (trespassing doesn't exactly carry a life >sentence), a vigorous response helps set a tone of what is and isn't >acceptable in the community. > >Don > >My 2 cents: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:23:43 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: EPA targets New England colleges, universities Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-18 22:19:42 EST, you write: << We could certainly negotiate something cheaper than paying some consultant from the private sector who may or may not know much about collegiate settings >> Hi NACHOs, There is a third possibility. The private sector consultant may know more about collegiate settings and be able to do it faster (therefore, less or equally inexpensively)! Furthermore... you wrote... << I think my university would be very reasonable about costs to loan me to you for a day or two and or consult long distance via email, phone etc.>> If you get serious about such an arrangement, see what happen when you sit down with the university's chief financial officer and discuss what the real pricing should be. Then just for laughs, sit down with the university's attorney and discuss the liability issues. Add up all the time you have spent (both yours and theirs) and the institution's overhead (100%) before consider what's a fair price to charge. I'd be interested in what conclusion you all come to. .... Jim ****************************************** James A. Kaufman, Ph.D., President Kaufman & Associates 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760-2252 508-647-0900 Fax: 508-647-0062 JAKSafety@aol.com Caring about Your Health and Safety ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:24:54 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: static electricity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-19 14:29:10 EST, you write: << Plastic is a non-conductor and therefore it can't be grounded. You could, I suppose, put a metal rod into the solution and ground that. >> Hi NACHOs, My experience in this area is somewhat different. The charge builds up on both the inside and outside of the container. Remember, the charge on a plastic comb will bend a stream of water. And, a rubber balloon will accept a charge from your wool sweater and then stick to stuff.... In addition to the rod into the solution, you can add a grounding belt and a grounding pad. Both are effective in avoiding the build up of charge differential due to the free fall of liquid through the air. There is an excellent book on this area by Thomas Pratt on Electrostatics. It's available from LSW. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:47:26 +0100 Reply-To: drossart@cico.ucl.ac.be From: DROSSART Claude Organization: U.C.L.-CICO/Chop Subject: CAS number Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bonjour, Is a CAS number of a chemical product, the specificity of 1 product ? many thanks claude -- Avec les meilleurs sentiments de Claude Drossart, Universite catholique de Louvain CICO-Chop-Laboratoire de Photochimie 1, place Pasteur, 1348-Louvain la Neuve (Wallonie-Belgique) tel: 32-(0)10-472714 GSM: 095.214835 fax: 32-(0)10-473009 http://www.chim.ucl.ac.be/CHIM/CICO/chop.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:51:17 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: NSTA Boston Comments: To: chemed-l@atlantis.uwf.edu, Safety , nsela-l@science.coe.uwf.edu, NAOSMM@listserv.rice.edu, dchas-l@siu.edu, CHEMCOM@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu, biosafty@mitvma.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For those of you attending the NSTA Meeting this week in Boston, I would like to invite you to attend LSW's lab safety presentations. On Wednesday Afternoon: We'll be presenting on the OSHA Lab Standard as part of the NSELA meeting. On Thursday-Sunday: Bring your lab safety questions to the Lab Safety Resource Center in the Exhibit Hall at the Carolina Exhibit. On Friday Evening: Join the Lab Safety Workshop and Carolina for an "Enlightening and Entertaining Evening of Science Safety". Food and beverages will be provided by Carolina. On Saturday Morning: Join the Lab Safety Workshop and Carolina for our "Safety First Seminar". Hope to see you there, ..... Jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:51:50 -0300 From: "Marle J. Ferrari Jr." Subject: Organics effluent treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01BE73D4.43095A60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01BE73D4.43095A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is my first msg to the list and I would apreciate if someone help = me with some tips (books, available technologies) about the treatment of = organic effluents.=20 I work in a brazilian university with some chemicals laboratory and we = are very worried with the problem of discharging organic and inorganic = effluents on the river and sewers. I have a little experience on = effluent treatment, but only with food industry and sanitary effluent. Thank you! Marle J. Ferrari Jr ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01BE73D4.43095A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is my first msg to the list and = I would=20 apreciate if someone help me with some tips (books, available = technologies)=20 about the treatment of organic effluents.
 
I work in a brazilian university = with some=20 chemicals laboratory and we are very worried with the problem of = discharging=20 organic and inorganic effluents on the river and sewers. I have a little = experience on effluent treatment, but only with food industry and = sanitary=20 effluent.
 
Thank you!
 
Marle J. Ferrari = Jr
------=_NextPart_000_0037_01BE73D4.43095A60-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 18:45:13 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Position Wanted Comments: To: Safe-NZ@niwa.cri.nz, NAOSMM@listserv.rice.edu, hs-canada@ccohs.ca, dchas-l@siu.edu, biosafty@mitvma.mit.edu Comments: cc: Hancock141@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Roger Hancock is a health and safety professional with 20 years of wide- ranging, comprehensive health and safety practice. He is certified in both industrial hygiene and safety with coursework beyond Master's. He has broad engineering background with strong managerial, analytical and problem-solving capabilities. Roger is looking for a position as a safety and health manager, safety manager or health, safety and environmental manager for a corporation. If you know of available positions, please contact Roger directly at Hancock141@aol.com Thanks for your help. ... Jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:38:24 -0500 From: "Henry Boyter Jr." Subject: Re: Organics effluent treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Start with Metcalf and Eddy "Wastewater Engineering" McGraw Hill Nalco "Nalco Water Handbook" McGraw Hill Hammer "Water Supply and Pllution Control" Harper and Row Go to www.amazon.com and search on water and wastewater. Go to www.wef.org and look at publications. Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational purposes only and should not be used as advice. No warranty or expression of professionalism is implied. *************** -----Original Message----- From: Marle J. Ferrari Jr. To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 5:57 PM Subject: Organics effluent treatment This is my first msg to the list and I would apreciate if someone help me with some tips (books, available technologies) about the treatment of organic effluents. I work in a brazilian university with some chemicals laboratory and we are very worried with the problem of discharging organic and inorganic effluents on the river and sewers. I have a little experience on effluent treatment, but only with food industry and sanitary effluent. Thank you! Marle J. Ferrari Jr ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:05:22 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Organization: SafetyInfo.Com Subject: Gov. Fails to Protect It's Own MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Start your morning with Daily Safety News from Safety Info.Com One of our stories this morning....... US Capitol Workers Have Unsafe Conditions Source: AP 21 March, 1999 Seem that the same Government that regulates worker safety for millions has now realized it has a very large problem. Inspectors have revealed that Capitol Maintenance Workers have the highest accident rate in the entire US Government. These rates are 5 time higher that those of the National Forest Service, the organizations whose workers fight wild fires. The inspection report related the following concerns: -workers were exposed to bloodborne pathogens by digging through contaminated trash with out protective clothing -one building contained high concentrations of the bacteria that cause Legionnaires' disease. -flammable liquids stored near exposed electrical wires and other hazardous locations exposure to coal dust -lack of an effective respiratory protection program -lack of working fire extinguishers -in 3 buildings all exits except one is locked after normal hours -removal of asbestos from a Capitol Police locker room - without notifying the tenets of the hazards Come to http://www.safetyinfo.com for more of today's late breaking safety news Regards Marc Neuffer Safety Info.Com, Safety Community Alliance Partner with WorldSafety.Com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:23:46 +0800 From: Martin Lindsay Subject: Safety Issue - Oxygen Mime-Version: 1.0 >X-From_: owner-plasmachem-l@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Mon Mar 22 13:20:57 1999 >Delivered-To: ausweb-clarke@WEB.NET.AU >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) >Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:18:58 -0600 >Reply-To: "Analytical Chemistry using ICP's, DCP's, MIP's." > >Sender: "Analytical Chemistry using ICP's, DCP's, MIP's." > >From: Bob Towner >Subject: Safety Issue - Oxygen >To: PLASMACHEM-L@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU > >With the recent discussion regarding adding oxygen to control carbon depositsin ICP torches, it should be pointed out that oxygen should never be added to the nebulizer gas when a spray chamber is employed. This could result in a dangerously explosive condition. Add O2 to the auxiliary gas, or even to the coolant gas, but never to the nebulizer gas. For applications that do not employ a spray chamber, it is OK to add an Ar/O2 mixture to the nebulizer gas. > >Regards, >Bob Towner >rttowne@CANADA >Imperial Oil Products & Chemicals Division, Research Department >453 Christina Street South >Sarnia, Ontario, Canada, N7T 8C8 >Phone: 519-339-4073 >Fax: 519-339-4436 >Internet: bob.t.towner@esso.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:38:11 -0800 From: Timettra Wellington Organization: University of Redlands Subject: Re: CAS number MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------BB19F8B75E3CD9A4D1403B5A" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BB19F8B75E3CD9A4D1403B5A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all. Yes, CAS numbers are unique to the product they are found on. So, sodium chloride is the same where ever you go and you will not find that number on anything else. Hope that help. Timettra Wellington --------------BB19F8B75E3CD9A4D1403B5A Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="sttwelli.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Timettra Wellington Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="sttwelli.vcf" begin:vcard n:Wellington;Timettra tel;pager:909-345-1179 tel;fax:909-793-2029 tel;work:909-793-2121 x2380 x-mozilla-html:TRUE org:University of Redlands;Science Center version:2.1 email;internet:sttwelli@uor.edu title:Science Lab Technician adr;quoted-printable:;;Chemistry Department=0D=0A1200 E. Colton Ave.;Redlands;CA;92374; x-mozilla-cpt:;-12864 fn:Wellington, Timettra end:vcard --------------BB19F8B75E3CD9A4D1403B5A-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:55:06 +0000 From: Cheryl Dawley Subject: Re: CAS number MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is not entirely true. An example: "Polyethylene glycol, MW 1200" has the same CAS number as "Polyethylene glycol, MW 5000". We ran into a number of similar problems when we tried to link our chemical inventory to CAS number, Cheryl Dawley Timettra Wellington wrote: > Hi all. > > Yes, CAS numbers are unique to the product they are found on. So, > sodium chloride is the same where ever you go and you will not find that > number on anything else. > > Hope that help. > > Timettra Wellington ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:21:26 -0800 From: "John M. Neil" Subject: Re: CAS number In-Reply-To: <36F5F74E.FB602E21@transport.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 The CAS number is assigned to a compound by the Chemical Abstracting Service (CAS). Two products with the different ratios of the same compounds would have the same CAS numbers. This is one of the reasons behind requiring MSDS's from each manufacturer if you have multiple sources for the same product. The formulation can vary. At 07:55 AM 3/22/99 +0000, you wrote: >This is not entirely true. An example: "Polyethylene glycol, MW 1200" has >the same CAS number as "Polyethylene glycol, MW 5000". We ran into a number >of similar problems when we tried to link our chemical inventory to CAS >number, > >Cheryl Dawley > >Timettra Wellington wrote: > >> Hi all. >> >> Yes, CAS numbers are unique to the product they are found on. So, >> sodium chloride is the same where ever you go and you will not find that >> number on anything else. >> >> Hope that help. >> >> Timettra Wellington John M. Neil Thermochemistry Facility Department of Chemical Engineering & Material Science University of California at Davis One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616-8779 phone: (530) 754-2130 Fax: (530) 752-9307 "Entropy isn't what it use to be." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:20:28 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: CAS number & MSDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain OSHA no longer requires separate MSDS from each separate manufacturer. However, if you have differing formulation and ratio mixes, it would be prudent to have separate MSDS for each one. If you have 100% acetone from several vendors, then 1 MSDS would cover these. As stated CAS numbers are specific to a compound. However, mixtures of compounds do not necessarily have new CAS numbers. For example, ethanol and water would list in the ingredients section of the MSDS Ethanol with its CAS # and Water with its CAS number (I could look them up but the idea remains the same). The mix itself does not have a new CAS #. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: John M. Neil [SMTP:jmneil@UCDAVIS.EDU] Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 9:21 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: CAS number The CAS number is assigned to a compound by the Chemical Abstracting Service (CAS). Two products with the different ratios of the same compounds would have the same CAS numbers. This is one of the reasons behind requiring MSDS's from each manufacturer if you have multiple sources for the same product. The formulation can vary. At 07:55 AM 3/22/99 +0000, you wrote: >This is not entirely true. An example: "Polyethylene glycol, MW 1200" has >the same CAS number as "Polyethylene glycol, MW 5000". We ran into a number >of similar problems when we tried to link our chemical inventory to CAS >number, > >Cheryl Dawley > >Timettra Wellington wrote: > >> Hi all. >> >> Yes, CAS numbers are unique to the product they are found on. So, >> sodium chloride is the same where ever you go and you will not find that >> number on anything else. >> >> Hope that help. >> >> Timettra Wellington > > John M. Neil Thermochemistry Facility Department of Chemical Engineering & Material Science University of California at Davis One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616-8779 phone: (530) 754-2130 Fax: (530) 752-9307 "Entropy isn't what it use to be." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:43:46 -0500 From: Herbert Carpenter Subject: Re: CAS number I've run into the same problem with PEG and other families of polymer reagents. I use a secondary name field in my inventory to differentiate after the CAS number. Since I'm only tracking the inventory and stock level for less than 900 item/work division combinations, it's manageable The CAS system is a life saver for accuracy and expediency and I was glad for it many times when our laboratory system had a lab in Japan and one in Germany and chemicals were being procured and disposed of on the local economy. Where it breaks down for me as part of inventory management, however, is in tracking standing stocks of mixed specialty reagents for which there is no established CAS number. Unless it's a straight dilution reagent with one "active" ingredient, I'm back to tracking by name. Herb Carpenter > ---------- > From: Cheryl Dawley[SMTP:cdawley@TRANSPORT.COM] > Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 2:55 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: CAS number > > This is not entirely true. An example: "Polyethylene glycol, MW 1200" > has > the same CAS number as "Polyethylene glycol, MW 5000". We ran into a > number > of similar problems when we tried to link our chemical inventory to CAS > number, > > Cheryl Dawley ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:47:19 -0600 From: Joe Chase Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Please further put my mind at ease; can you cite the OSHA revision that does not require separate MSDS by manufacturer? Thanks. --Joe Chase ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:40:39 -0500 From: "Stoll, Ilse (Ilse)" Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Is this OSHA requirement relaxation for laboratories only or does this also effect manufactuting MSDSs? Ilse Stoll > ---------- > From: Helen B. Gerhard[SMTP:hbgerhard@MEDLOGIC.COM] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:20 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: CAS number & MSDS > > OSHA no longer requires separate MSDS from each separate manufacturer. > However, if you have differing formulation and ratio mixes, it would be > prudent to have separate MSDS for each one. If you have 100% acetone from > several vendors, then 1 MSDS would cover these. > > As stated CAS numbers are specific to a compound. However, mixtures of > compounds do not necessarily have new CAS numbers. For example, ethanol > and > water would list in the ingredients section of the MSDS Ethanol with its > CAS > # and Water with its CAS number (I could look them up but the idea remains > the same). The mix itself does not have a new CAS #. > > Thanks! > > Helen > -----Original Message----- > From: John M. Neil [SMTP:jmneil@UCDAVIS.EDU] > Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 9:21 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject:Re: CAS number > > The CAS number is assigned to a compound by the Chemical > Abstracting > Service (CAS). Two products with the different ratios of the same > compounds would have the same CAS numbers. This is one of the > reasons > behind requiring MSDS's from each manufacturer if you have > multiple > sources > for the same product. The formulation can vary. > At 07:55 AM 3/22/99 +0000, you wrote: > >This is not entirely true. An example: "Polyethylene glycol, MW > 1200" has > >the same CAS number as "Polyethylene glycol, MW 5000". We ran > into > a number > >of similar problems when we tried to link our chemical inventory > to > CAS > >number, > > > >Cheryl Dawley > > > >Timettra Wellington wrote: > > > >> Hi all. > >> > >> Yes, CAS numbers are unique to the product they are found on. > So, > >> sodium chloride is the same where ever you go and you will not > find that > >> number on anything else. > >> > >> Hope that help. > >> > >> Timettra Wellington > > > > > John M. Neil > > Thermochemistry Facility > Department of Chemical Engineering & Material Science > University of California at Davis > One Shields Avenue > Davis, CA 95616-8779 > > phone: (530) 754-2130 Fax: (530) 752-9307 > > "Entropy isn't what it use to be." > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:46:35 -0500 From: "Henry Boyter Jr." Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can you site this from OSHA and what they consider "the same"? Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational purposes only and should not be used as advice. No warranty or expression of professionalism is implied. *************** -----Original Message----- From: Helen B. Gerhard To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:19 AM Subject: CAS number & MSDS OSHA no longer requires separate MSDS from each separate manufacturer. However, if you have differing formulation and ratio mixes, it would be prudent to have separate MSDS for each one. If you have 100% acetone from several vendors, then 1 MSDS would cover these. As stated CAS numbers are specific to a compound. However, mixtures of compounds do not necessarily have new CAS numbers. For example, ethanol and water would list in the ingredients section of the MSDS Ethanol with its CAS # and Water with its CAS number (I could look them up but the idea remains the same). The mix itself does not have a new CAS #. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: John M. Neil [SMTP:jmneil@UCDAVIS.EDU] Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 9:21 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: CAS number The CAS number is assigned to a compound by the Chemical Abstracting Service (CAS). Two products with the different ratios of the same compounds would have the same CAS numbers. This is one of the reasons behind requiring MSDS's from each manufacturer if you have multiple sources for the same product. The formulation can vary. At 07:55 AM 3/22/99 +0000, you wrote: >This is not entirely true. An example: "Polyethylene glycol, MW 1200" has >the same CAS number as "Polyethylene glycol, MW 5000". We ran into a number >of similar problems when we tried to link our chemical inventory to CAS >number, > >Cheryl Dawley > >Timettra Wellington wrote: > >> Hi all. >> >> Yes, CAS numbers are unique to the product they are found on. So, >> sodium chloride is the same where ever you go and you will not find that >> number on anything else. >> >> Hope that help. >> >> Timettra Wellington > > John M. Neil Thermochemistry Facility Department of Chemical Engineering & Material Science University of California at Davis One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616-8779 phone: (530) 754-2130 Fax: (530) 752-9307 "Entropy isn't what it use to be." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:39:50 -0500 From: "Warren C. Pinches" Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I don't believe that it was ever true that you had to have a MSDS from each manufacturer of each chemical. I have heard this often before but I believe it is a myth that grew up after the adoption of the HCS; if anyone can correct me on this I would welcome the information. I just re-read 1910.1200 looking for this point and all I see is a requirement that you have *a* MSDS for each hazardous chemical. Depending on how you have written your hazard communication plan, it can be a generic MSDS. 1910.1200(g) Material safety data sheets. (1) Chemical manufacturers and importers shall obtain or develop a material safety data sheet for each hazardous chemical they produce or import. Employers shall have a material safety data sheet in the workplace for each hazardous chemical which they use. Since HCS is a performance standard, you have wide latitude as to how you achieve hazard communication, as long as your MSDS are complete and technically accurate (both major caveats). For example, you could write or buy MSDS for all your chemicals and use none of the manufacturer's MSDS. For laboratories under 1910.1450, you are required to keep on file any MSDS that you receive, although you are not required to obtain them from every manufacturer. As to mixtures, I note 1910.1200(g)(2)(i)(C)(4) Where complex mixtures have similar hazards and contents (i.e. the chemical ingredients are essentially the same, but the specific composition varies from mixture to mixture), the chemical manufacturer, importer or employer may prepare one material safety data sheet to apply to all of these similar mixtures. Probably two bottles of polyethylene glycol with somewhat different MW could share a MSDS, since they would have "similar hazards and contents". I keep reminding my chemists (who sometimes expect a MSDS to be a spec sheet; they expect trace impurities to be listed) that MSDS are about *hazards* more than exact chemical composition. Indeed, under HCS you could claim composition as a trade secret and not disclose the chemical identity at all, as long as the hazards were disclosed, and as long as the chemical identity could be disclosed in an emergency. Using CAS numbers as a key to inventory or MSDS files is tempting but runs into immediate problems. CAS numbers are unique for a molecular structure or a polymeric unit, but the environment of these molecules makes a big difference. For example, a cylinder of hydrogen chloride gas and a bottle of N/100 hydrochloric acid have the same CAS number, but very different hazards -- and require very different MSDS. Warren C. Pinches, CSP, CHMM "Stoll, Ilse (Ilse)" on 03/22/99 12:40:39 PM Please respond to LABSAFETY-L Discussion List To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU cc: (bcc: Warren Pinches) Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS Is this OSHA requirement relaxation for laboratories only or does this also effect manufactuting MSDSs? Ilse Stoll > ---------- > From: Helen B. Gerhard[SMTP:hbgerhard@MEDLOGIC.COM] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:20 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: CAS number & MSDS > > OSHA no longer requires separate MSDS from each separate manufacturer. > However, if you have differing formulation and ratio mixes, it would be > prudent to have separate MSDS for each one. If you have 100% acetone from > several vendors, then 1 MSDS would cover these. > > As stated CAS numbers are specific to a compound. However, mixtures of > compounds do not necessarily have new CAS numbers. For example, ethanol > and > water would list in the ingredients section of the MSDS Ethanol with its > CAS > # and Water with its CAS number (I could look them up but the idea remains > the same). The mix itself does not have a new CAS #. > > Thanks! > > Helen > -----Original Message----- > From: John M. Neil [SMTP:jmneil@UCDAVIS.EDU] > Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 9:21 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject:Re: CAS number > > The CAS number is assigned to a compound by the Chemical > Abstracting > Service (CAS). Two products with the different ratios of the same > compounds would have the same CAS numbers. This is one of the > reasons > behind requiring MSDS's from each manufacturer if you have > multiple > sources > for the same product. The formulation can vary. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:42:36 -0500 From: "Warren C. Pinches" Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I don't believe that it was ever true that you had to have a MSDS from each manufacturer of each chemical. I have heard this often before but I believe it is a myth that grew up after the adoption of the HCS; if anyone can correct me on this I would welcome the information. I just re-read 1910.1200 looking for this point and all I see is a requirement that you have *a* MSDS for each hazardous chemical. Depending on how you have written your hazard communication plan, it can be a generic MSDS. 1910.1200(g) Material safety data sheets. (1) Chemical manufacturers and importers shall obtain or develop a material safety data sheet for each hazardous chemical they produce or import. Employers shall have a material safety data sheet in the workplace for each hazardous chemical which they use. Since HCS is a performance standard, you have wide latitude as to how you achieve hazard communication, as long as your MSDS are complete and technically accurate (both major caveats). For example, you could write or buy MSDS for all your chemicals and use none of the manufacturer's MSDS. For laboratories under 1910.1450, you are required to keep on file any MSDS that you receive, although you are not required to obtain them from every manufacturer. As to mixtures, I note 1910.1200(g)(2)(i)(C)(4) Where complex mixtures have similar hazards and contents (i.e. the chemical ingredients are essentially the same, but the specific composition varies from mixture to mixture), the chemical manufacturer, importer or employer may prepare one material safety data sheet to apply to all of these similar mixtures. Probably two bottles of polyethylene glycol with somewhat different MW could share a MSDS, since they would have "similar hazards and contents". I keep reminding my chemists (who sometimes expect a MSDS to be a spec sheet; they expect trace impurities to be listed) that MSDS are about *hazards* more than exact chemical composition. Indeed, under HCS you could claim composition as a trade secret and not disclose the chemical identity at all, as long as the hazards were disclosed, and as long as the chemical identity could be disclosed in an emergency. Using CAS numbers as a key to inventory or MSDS files is tempting but runs into immediate problems. CAS numbers are unique for a molecular structure or a polymeric unit, but the environment of these molecules makes a big difference. For example, a cylinder of hydrogen chloride gas and a bottle of N/100 hydrochloric acid have the same CAS number, but very different hazards -- and require very different MSDS. Warren C. Pinches, CSP, CHMM "Stoll, Ilse (Ilse)" on 03/22/99 12:40:39 PM Is this OSHA requirement relaxation for laboratories only or does this also effect manufactuting MSDSs? Ilse Stoll > ---------- > From: Helen B. Gerhard[SMTP:hbgerhard@MEDLOGIC.COM] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:20 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: CAS number & MSDS > > OSHA no longer requires separate MSDS from each separate manufacturer. > However, if you have differing formulation and ratio mixes, it would be > prudent to have separate MSDS for each one. If you have 100% acetone from > several vendors, then 1 MSDS would cover these. > > As stated CAS numbers are specific to a compound. However, mixtures of > compounds do not necessarily have new CAS numbers. For example, ethanol > and > water would list in the ingredients section of the MSDS Ethanol with its > CAS > # and Water with its CAS number (I could look them up but the idea remains > the same). The mix itself does not have a new CAS #. > > Thanks! > > Helen > -----Original Message----- > From: John M. Neil [SMTP:jmneil@UCDAVIS.EDU] > Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 9:21 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject:Re: CAS number > > The CAS number is assigned to a compound by the Chemical > Abstracting > Service (CAS). Two products with the different ratios of the same > compounds would have the same CAS numbers. This is one of the > reasons > behind requiring MSDS's from each manufacturer if you have > multiple > sources > for the same product. The formulation can vary. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:06:20 -0500 From: "Henry Boyter Jr." Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Employers shall have a material safety data sheet in the workplace for each hazardous chemical which they use." There is the catch. If you do not have the MSDS from the second manufacturer, how do you know it is the same? If the product is tech grade acetone from Fisher and you have the MSDS for HPLC grade acetone from Aldrich do you really have the MSDS for the chemical being used? If you are ordering for a lab and are ordering 100% pure chemicals, you may want to take the responsibility on your shoulders. I wouldn't except with pure chemicals (and I do in rare cases). I still get the new MSDS in most cases anyway. With commercial products, this can get you in deep trouble, because few are exactly the same. For example, there are grades of "pure" sodium chloride that are really very different. At a minimum if this is done, I would say that the MSDS must have a cross reference saying that the MSDS of vendor X is also being used for vendor Y. Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational purposes only and should not be used as advice. No warranty or expression of professionalism is implied. *************** -----Original Message----- From: Warren C. Pinches To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 1:30 PM Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS I don't believe that it was ever true that you had to have a MSDS from each manufacturer of each chemical. I have heard this often before but I believe it is a myth that grew up after the adoption of the HCS; if anyone can correct me on this I would welcome the information. I just re-read 1910.1200 looking for this point and all I see is a requirement that you have *a* MSDS for each hazardous chemical. Depending on how you have written your hazard communication plan, it can be a generic MSDS. 1910.1200(g) Material safety data sheets. (1) Chemical manufacturers and importers shall obtain or develop a material safety data sheet for each hazardous chemical they produce or import. Employers shall have a material safety data sheet in the workplace for each hazardous chemical which they use. Since HCS is a performance standard, you have wide latitude as to how you achieve hazard communication, as long as your MSDS are complete and technically accurate (both major caveats). For example, you could write or buy MSDS for all your chemicals and use none of the manufacturer's MSDS. For laboratories under 1910.1450, you are required to keep on file any MSDS that you receive, although you are not required to obtain them from every manufacturer. As to mixtures, I note 1910.1200(g)(2)(i)(C)(4) Where complex mixtures have similar hazards and contents (i.e. the chemical ingredients are essentially the same, but the specific composition varies from mixture to mixture), the chemical manufacturer, importer or employer may prepare one material safety data sheet to apply to all of these similar mixtures. Probably two bottles of polyethylene glycol with somewhat different MW could share a MSDS, since they would have "similar hazards and contents". I keep reminding my chemists (who sometimes expect a MSDS to be a spec sheet; they expect trace impurities to be listed) that MSDS are about *hazards* more than exact chemical composition. Indeed, under HCS you could claim composition as a trade secret and not disclose the chemical identity at all, as long as the hazards were disclosed, and as long as the chemical identity could be disclosed in an emergency. Using CAS numbers as a key to inventory or MSDS files is tempting but runs into immediate problems. CAS numbers are unique for a molecular structure or a polymeric unit, but the environment of these molecules makes a big difference. For example, a cylinder of hydrogen chloride gas and a bottle of N/100 hydrochloric acid have the same CAS number, but very different hazards -- and require very different MSDS. Warren C. Pinches, CSP, CHMM "Stoll, Ilse (Ilse)" on 03/22/99 12:40:39 PM Please respond to LABSAFETY-L Discussion List To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU cc: (bcc: Warren Pinches) Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS Is this OSHA requirement relaxation for laboratories only or does this also effect manufactuting MSDSs? Ilse Stoll > ---------- > From: Helen B. Gerhard[SMTP:hbgerhard@MEDLOGIC.COM] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:20 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: CAS number & MSDS > > OSHA no longer requires separate MSDS from each separate manufacturer. > However, if you have differing formulation and ratio mixes, it would be > prudent to have separate MSDS for each one. If you have 100% acetone from > several vendors, then 1 MSDS would cover these. > > As stated CAS numbers are specific to a compound. However, mixtures of > compounds do not necessarily have new CAS numbers. For example, ethanol > and > water would list in the ingredients section of the MSDS Ethanol with its > CAS > # and Water with its CAS number (I could look them up but the idea remains > the same). The mix itself does not have a new CAS #. > > Thanks! > > Helen > -----Original Message----- > From: John M. Neil [SMTP:jmneil@UCDAVIS.EDU] > Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 9:21 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject:Re: CAS number > > The CAS number is assigned to a compound by the Chemical > Abstracting > Service (CAS). Two products with the different ratios of the same > compounds would have the same CAS numbers. This is one of the > reasons > behind requiring MSDS's from each manufacturer if you have > multiple > sources > for the same product. The formulation can vary. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:05:39 -0500 From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That may be true, but the label on the container must match the MSDS or the people who need to use it can't find it. This is more of an issue with trade names than with pure chemicals labeled as such. For example, we sell sodium xylenesulfonate under the trade name Naxonate 4L. if you have a sample of our material you need a copy of our MSDS. Probably more of an issue in industry than in academia. "SEMPER ADVENTURUS!!!" Robert L. Burns R&D Group Leader Specialty Chemicals Division RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 815 333 4805 email rburns@bigfoot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Warren C. Pinches To: Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 13:42 Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS > I don't believe that it was ever true that you had to have a MSDS from each > manufacturer of each chemical. I have heard this often before but I > believe it is a myth that grew up after the adoption of the HCS; if anyone > can correct me on this I would welcome the information. I just re-read > 1910.1200 looking for this point and all I see is a requirement that you > have *a* MSDS for each hazardous chemical. Depending on how you have > written your hazard communication plan, it can be a generic MSDS. > > 1910.1200(g) Material safety data sheets. (1) Chemical manufacturers and > importers shall obtain or develop a material safety data sheet for each > hazardous chemical they produce or import. Employers shall have a > material safety data sheet in the workplace for each hazardous chemical > which they use. > > Since HCS is a performance standard, you have wide latitude as to how you > achieve hazard communication, as long as your MSDS are complete and > technically accurate (both major caveats). For example, you could write or > buy MSDS for all your chemicals and use none of the manufacturer's MSDS. > For laboratories under 1910.1450, you are required to keep on file any MSDS > that you receive, although you are not required to obtain them from every > manufacturer. As to mixtures, I note > > 1910.1200(g)(2)(i)(C)(4) Where complex mixtures have similar hazards and > contents (i.e. > the chemical ingredients are essentially the same, but the specific > composition varies from mixture to mixture), the chemical manufacturer, > importer or employer may prepare one material safety data sheet to apply > to all of these similar mixtures. > > Probably two bottles of polyethylene glycol with somewhat different MW > could share a MSDS, since they would have "similar hazards and contents". > I keep reminding my chemists (who sometimes expect a MSDS to be a spec > sheet; they expect trace impurities to be listed) that MSDS are about > *hazards* more than exact chemical composition. Indeed, under HCS you > could claim composition as a trade secret and not disclose the chemical > identity at all, as long as the hazards were disclosed, and as long as the > chemical identity could be disclosed in an emergency. > > Using CAS numbers as a key to inventory or MSDS files is tempting but runs > into immediate problems. CAS numbers are unique for a molecular structure > or a polymeric unit, but the environment of these molecules makes a big > difference. For example, a cylinder of hydrogen chloride gas and a bottle > of N/100 hydrochloric acid have the same CAS number, but very different > hazards -- and require very different MSDS. > > Warren C. Pinches, CSP, CHMM > "Stoll, Ilse (Ilse)" on 03/22/99 12:40:39 PM > Is this OSHA requirement relaxation for laboratories only or does this also > effect manufactuting MSDSs? > > Ilse Stoll > > > ---------- > > From: Helen B. Gerhard[SMTP:hbgerhard@MEDLOGIC.COM] > > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:20 AM > > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > > Subject: CAS number & MSDS > > > > OSHA no longer requires separate MSDS from each separate manufacturer. > > However, if you have differing formulation and ratio mixes, it would be > > prudent to have separate MSDS for each one. If you have 100% acetone > from > > several vendors, then 1 MSDS would cover these. > > > > As stated CAS numbers are specific to a compound. However, mixtures of > > compounds do not necessarily have new CAS numbers. For example, ethanol > > and > > water would list in the ingredients section of the MSDS Ethanol with its > > CAS > > # and Water with its CAS number (I could look them up but the idea > remains > > the same). The mix itself does not have a new CAS #. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Helen > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John M. Neil [SMTP:jmneil@UCDAVIS.EDU] > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 9:21 AM > > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > > Subject:Re: CAS number > > > > The CAS number is assigned to a compound by the Chemical > > Abstracting > > Service (CAS). Two products with the different ratios of the > same > > compounds would have the same CAS numbers. This is one of the > > reasons > > behind requiring MSDS's from each manufacturer if you have > > multiple > > sources > > for the same product. The formulation can vary. > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 02:49:35 -0600 From: EH&S Compliance Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BE7410.2C457200" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7410.2C457200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have heard that you had to have a MSDS from each manufacturer of each = chemical also. We currently do this, but we have very few 'pure' = chemicals. I don't know of a reference, but would be interested in = seeing one. One thing the standard does state is that the MSDS shall contain the = 'identity used on the label' (see section g). In a simple case we have = had one manufacturer call a product sodium chloride and another calls = its 50lb bags of sodium chloride ocean salt; both are sodium chloride. = They have different names on the label. Two different MSDSs are kept. Rebecca Levins EH&S Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:14:17 -0500 From: "Dr. Linda A. Swihart" Subject: MSDS for each manufacturer Mime-Version: 1.0 I am searching, will say if I find an interpretation or anything. The way I heard it was that for trade products like paints, cleaners, etc... the manufacturer may not simply buy a book of MSDSs from Genium, e.g., and use the MSDS for "alkali-based oven cleaner" for Easy-Off (we have to pretend that this is Easy-Off in industrial sized containers purchased for use by employees in an industrial setting, not consumer packaging). You HAD to have an MSDS from the manufacturer of Easy-Off. (And no disrespect to Genium, they do wonderful stuff. They were the only company that popped into my mind regarding the massive multi-volume generic MSDS collectins that were sold by several publishing houses in the mid to late 80s.) BUT, and this is what I'm looking for, supposedly OSHA ruled at some point that this is not necessary for "pure" chemicals. I.e., that a Baker MSDS for "TOLUENE" is equl to a Fisher MSDS for "TOLUENE." I don't believe I have ever seem any of this in print, but I'm kind of betting it's somewhere. More later, Linda PS, who sells any 100% pure chemical of any sort? Maybe I've seen one, but I don't recall ever seeing one. Unless it was a case of rounding up to the nearest whole percent, that is, but most chemicals are sold as 98+%, or >99.9%.... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:28:47 +1200 From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Helen, Just to clarify what I think you are saying for those not familiar with CAS Nos. They are specific to an element or compound. Mixtures do not have CAS Nos. As you rightly say CAS Nos can identify unequivocally the constituents of a mixture. On the matter of MSDSs, I have 2 MSDSs from different suppliers of Nonyl Phenol which classifies them differently. One as Class 6.1 Toxic the other as Class 8 Corrosive for transportation. Discussions with chemical classifiers confirm my thoughts that in fact it is neither. You can't believe everything you read. Tony Haggerty -----Original Message----- From: Helen B. Gerhard To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: 23 March 1999 04:27 Subject: CAS number & MSDS >OSHA no longer requires separate MSDS from each separate manufacturer. >However, if you have differing formulation and ratio mixes, it would be >prudent to have separate MSDS for each one. If you have 100% acetone from >several vendors, then 1 MSDS would cover these. > >As stated CAS numbers are specific to a compound. However, mixtures of >compounds do not necessarily have new CAS numbers. For example, ethanol and >water would list in the ingredients section of the MSDS Ethanol with its CAS ># and Water with its CAS number (I could look them up but the idea remains >the same). The mix itself does not have a new CAS #. > >Thanks! > >Helen >-----Original Message----- >From: John M. Neil [SMTP:jmneil@UCDAVIS.EDU] >Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 9:21 AM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject:Re: CAS number > >The CAS number is assigned to a compound by the Chemical Abstracting >Service (CAS). Two products with the different ratios of the same >compounds would have the same CAS numbers. This is one of the >reasons >behind requiring MSDS's from each manufacturer if you have multiple >sources >for the same product. The formulation can vary. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:46:21 -0500 From: Madelyn Miller Subject: Re: MSDS for each manufacturer In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990322151417.0087c1c0@postoffice.purdue.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Greetings An MSDS from Baker for 3% formaldehyde will be the same MSDS for 37%. Don't start quibbling about percents. It is my opinion for "individual" products find the best MSDS - the one that is not written by a lawyer. Madelyn ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Chemical Hygiene Officer, CCHO Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University mmiller@andrew.cmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:50:48 -0500 From: "Henry Boyter Jr." Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One correction. Certain mixtures can have CAS numbers. The simpliest examples are fuel oils. Also, polymer mixtures can have CAS numbers. Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational purposes only and should not be used as advice. No warranty or expression of professionalism is implied. *************** -----Original Message----- From: Tony Haggerty To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 3:26 PM Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS Helen, Just to clarify what I think you are saying for those not familiar with CAS Nos. They are specific to an element or compound. Mixtures do not have CAS Nos. As you rightly say CAS Nos can identify unequivocally the constituents of a mixture. On the matter of MSDSs, I have 2 MSDSs from different suppliers of Nonyl Phenol which classifies them differently. One as Class 6.1 Toxic the other as Class 8 Corrosive for transportation. Discussions with chemical classifiers confirm my thoughts that in fact it is neither. You can't believe everything you read. Tony Haggerty -----Original Message----- From: Helen B. Gerhard To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: 23 March 1999 04:27 Subject: CAS number & MSDS >OSHA no longer requires separate MSDS from each separate manufacturer. >However, if you have differing formulation and ratio mixes, it would be >prudent to have separate MSDS for each one. If you have 100% acetone from >several vendors, then 1 MSDS would cover these. > >As stated CAS numbers are specific to a compound. However, mixtures of >compounds do not necessarily have new CAS numbers. For example, ethanol and >water would list in the ingredients section of the MSDS Ethanol with its CAS ># and Water with its CAS number (I could look them up but the idea remains >the same). The mix itself does not have a new CAS #. > >Thanks! > >Helen >-----Original Message----- >From: John M. Neil [SMTP:jmneil@UCDAVIS.EDU] >Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 9:21 AM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject:Re: CAS number > >The CAS number is assigned to a compound by the Chemical Abstracting >Service (CAS). Two products with the different ratios of the same >compounds would have the same CAS numbers. This is one of the >reasons >behind requiring MSDS's from each manufacturer if you have multiple >sources >for the same product. The formulation can vary. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:03:21 -0500 From: "Warren C. Pinches" Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In practice I do obtain MSDS from every manufacturer, but I'm not sure it helps employees to be confronted with 15 MSDS sheets for, say, methylene chloride. Especially if they have a secondary container that is labeled with the chemical and hazard, but not with the original manufacturer's identity. They just want to know about *methylene chloride*. As for the difficulties posed by synonyms, that must be dealt with in any hazcom training program. I include synonym cross-reference sheets throughout our MSDS files. If a manufacturer spikes a chemical, especially one with a well-defined ACS grade, with something that materially changes the health and safety characteristics of the chemical, without identifying it on the label as well as the MSDS, I don't think they would be in business long. It takes significant adulteration to change a chemical's physical or health hazard class, or change PPE selection. Yes, I do check for variations in stabilizers and other trace components, and in rare situations (such as having a highly carcinogenic additive or impurity) they could change the health and safety characteristics of the chemical. In cases such as these, the label of the chemical needs to be augmented to make it clear that it is *not* the same chemical as other containers by that name, since in practice employees who are used to working with a particular grade of a chemical don't read a new MSDS, even when specifically given them, just because the brand name changes. Usually the most sensitive issue is waste disposal, since a few ppm of an impurity can sometimes force a change in disposal methods or labeling, but it would be a rare MSDS that would even mention that 0.6 ppm of benzene. MSDS are practically silent on waste disposal, usually just suggesting that you do it *in accordance with all applicable federal, state, and local laws*. (My other favorite phrase is *use chemical-resistant gloves*.) Certainly significantly differing degrees of mixtures may require different MSDS; I gave the example in my original post of the many forms of HCl. For proprietary mixtures or *trade-name* chemicals of course one must have the manufacturer's MSDS because there is no other way of even identifying the characteristics of the chemical. (And in most cases with proprietary mixtures, chemical identity is hidden.) These mixtures are unique and there are no generic MSDS. Very low-grade chemicals may also be considered as a kind of proprietary mixture. If we substitute one MSDS for another for the same chemical, there is of course a liability attached -- we now have assumed responsibility for communicating correct information, and we cannot pass the liability back to the manufacturer. This is really what drives most people to insist on manufacturer-specific MSDS. However, most of the issues that have a real impact on employee or environmental protection -- safe work practices, engineering, selection of PPE, and waste disposal -- MSDS provide little guidance, and employers assume the liability for determing these anyway. If I sound a bit cross on this subject, it is because MSDS so frequently do such a poor job of hazard communication. Having read many unintelligible, misleading, incomplete, and just plain wrong MSDS, I often find cases in which a generic MSDS, or one from another vendor, offers better information -- and thus protection -- to the employee than the manufacturer-supplied one. In such cases I am glad that OSHA left us flexibility on this subject. Warren C. Pinches, CSP, CHMM Purely personal opinions asked for and wanted by no one else. "Henry Boyter Jr." on 03/22/99 02:06:20 PM "Employers shall have a material safety data sheet in the workplace for each hazardous chemical which they use." There is the catch. If you do not have the MSDS from the second manufacturer, how do you know it is the same? If the product is tech grade acetone from Fisher and you have the MSDS for HPLC grade acetone from Aldrich do you really have the MSDS for the chemical being used? If you are ordering for a lab and are ordering 100% pure chemicals, you may want to take the responsibility on your shoulders. I wouldn't except with pure chemicals (and I do in rare cases). I still get the new MSDS in most cases anyway. With commercial products, this can get you in deep trouble, because few are exactly the same. For example, there are grades of "pure" sodium chloride that are really very different. At a minimum if this is done, I would say that the MSDS must have a cross reference saying that the MSDS of vendor X is also being used for vendor Y. Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational purposes only and should not be used as advice. No warranty or expression of professionalism is implied. *************** -----Original Message----- From: Warren C. Pinches To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 1:30 PM Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS I don't believe that it was ever true that you had to have a MSDS from each manufacturer of each chemical. I have heard this often before but I believe it is a myth that grew up after the adoption of the HCS; if anyone can correct me on this I would welcome the information. I just re-read 1910.1200 looking for this point and all I see is a requirement that you have *a* MSDS for each hazardous chemical. Depending on how you have written your hazard communication plan, it can be a generic MSDS. 1910.1200(g) Material safety data sheets. (1) Chemical manufacturers and importers shall obtain or develop a material safety data sheet for each hazardous chemical they produce or import. Employers shall have a material safety data sheet in the workplace for each hazardous chemical which they use. Since HCS is a performance standard, you have wide latitude as to how you achieve hazard communication, as long as your MSDS are complete and technically accurate (both major caveats). For example, you could write or buy MSDS for all your chemicals and use none of the manufacturer's MSDS. For laboratories under 1910.1450, you are required to keep on file any MSDS that you receive, although you are not required to obtain them from every manufacturer. As to mixtures, I note 1910.1200(g)(2)(i)(C)(4) Where complex mixtures have similar hazards and contents (i.e. the chemical ingredients are essentially the same, but the specific composition varies from mixture to mixture), the chemical manufacturer, importer or employer may prepare one material safety data sheet to apply to all of these similar mixtures. Probably two bottles of polyethylene glycol with somewhat different MW could share a MSDS, since they would have "similar hazards and contents". I keep reminding my chemists (who sometimes expect a MSDS to be a spec sheet; they expect trace impurities to be listed) that MSDS are about *hazards* more than exact chemical composition. Indeed, under HCS you could claim composition as a trade secret and not disclose the chemical identity at all, as long as the hazards were disclosed, and as long as the chemical identity could be disclosed in an emergency. Using CAS numbers as a key to inventory or MSDS files is tempting but runs into immediate problems. CAS numbers are unique for a molecular structure or a polymeric unit, but the environment of these molecules makes a big difference. For example, a cylinder of hydrogen chloride gas and a bottle of N/100 hydrochloric acid have the same CAS number, but very different hazards -- and require very different MSDS. Warren C. Pinches, CSP, CHMM ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:13:13 -0700 From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Is it a common practice to archive an "obsolete" MSDS once it is updated? It would seem this would at least be a means to prove that what you (minimally) provided to the employee was what you (or the manufacturer) knew about that product at that time? Ben Greene, Ph.D. AlliedSignal Las Cruces, NM > ---------- > From: Warren C. Pinches[SMTP:Warren_Pinches@PRAXAIR.COM] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 2:03 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS > > In practice I do obtain MSDS from every manufacturer, but I'm not sure > it > helps employees to be confronted with 15 MSDS sheets for, say, > methylene > chloride. Especially if they have a secondary container that is > labeled > with the chemical and hazard, but not with the original manufacturer's > identity. They just want to know about *methylene chloride*. As for > the > difficulties posed by synonyms, that must be dealt with in any hazcom > training program. I include synonym cross-reference sheets throughout > our > MSDS files. > > If a manufacturer spikes a chemical, especially one with a > well-defined ACS > grade, with something that materially changes the health and safety > characteristics of the chemical, without identifying it on the label > as > well as the MSDS, I don't think they would be in business long. It > takes > significant adulteration to change a chemical's physical or health > hazard > class, or change PPE selection. Yes, I do check for variations in > stabilizers and other trace components, and in rare situations (such > as > having a highly carcinogenic additive or impurity) they could change > the > health and safety characteristics of the chemical. In cases such as > these, > the label of the chemical needs to be augmented to make it clear that > it is > *not* the same chemical as other containers by that name, since in > practice > employees who are used to working with a particular grade of a > chemical > don't read a new MSDS, even when specifically given them, just because > the > brand name changes. > > Usually the most sensitive issue is waste disposal, since a few ppm of > an > impurity can sometimes force a change in disposal methods or labeling, > but > it would be a rare MSDS that would even mention that 0.6 ppm of > benzene. > MSDS are practically silent on waste disposal, usually just suggesting > that > you do it *in accordance with all applicable federal, state, and local > laws*. (My other favorite phrase is *use chemical-resistant gloves*.) > > Certainly significantly differing degrees of mixtures may require > different > MSDS; I gave the example in my original post of the many forms of HCl. > For > proprietary mixtures or *trade-name* chemicals of course one must have > the > manufacturer's MSDS because there is no other way of even identifying > the > characteristics of the chemical. (And in most cases with proprietary > mixtures, chemical identity is hidden.) These mixtures are unique and > there are no generic MSDS. Very low-grade chemicals may also be > considered > as a kind of proprietary mixture. > > If we substitute one MSDS for another for the same chemical, there is > of > course a liability attached -- we now have assumed responsibility for > communicating correct information, and we cannot pass the liability > back to > the manufacturer. This is really what drives most people to insist on > manufacturer-specific MSDS. However, most of the issues that have a > real > impact on employee or environmental protection -- safe work practices, > engineering, selection of PPE, and waste disposal -- MSDS provide > little > guidance, and employers assume the liability for determing these > anyway. > > If I sound a bit cross on this subject, it is because MSDS so > frequently do > such a poor job of hazard communication. Having read many > unintelligible, > misleading, incomplete, and just plain wrong MSDS, I often find cases > in > which a generic MSDS, or one from another vendor, offers better > information > -- and thus protection -- to the employee than the > manufacturer-supplied > one. In such cases I am glad that OSHA left us flexibility on this > subject. > > Warren C. Pinches, CSP, CHMM > Purely personal opinions asked for and wanted by no one else. > "Henry Boyter Jr." on 03/22/99 02:06:20 PM > "Employers shall have a material safety data sheet in the > workplace for each hazardous chemical which they use." > > There is the catch. If you do not have the MSDS from the second > manufacturer, how do you know it is the same? If the product is > tech grade acetone from Fisher and you have the MSDS for HPLC > grade acetone from Aldrich do you really have the MSDS for the > chemical being used? > > If you are ordering for a lab and are ordering 100% pure chemicals, > you may want to take the responsibility on your shoulders. I wouldn't > except with pure chemicals (and I do in rare cases). I still get the > new MSDS in most cases anyway. > > With commercial products, this can get you in deep trouble, because > few are exactly the same. For example, there are grades of "pure" > sodium chloride that are really very different. > > At a minimum if this is done, I would say that the MSDS must have a > cross reference saying that the MSDS of vendor X is also being > used for vendor Y. > > Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist > > The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational > purposes only and should not be used as advice. No > warranty or expression of professionalism is implied. > > *************** > > -----Original Message----- > From: Warren C. Pinches > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 1:30 PM > Subject: Re: CAS number & MSDS > I don't believe that it was ever true that you had to have a MSDS from > each > manufacturer of each chemical. I have heard this often before but I > believe it is a myth that grew up after the adoption of the HCS; if > anyone > can correct me on this I would welcome the information. I just > re-read > 1910.1200 looking for this point and all I see is a requirement that > you > have *a* MSDS for each hazardous chemical. Depending on how you have > written your hazard communication plan, it can be a generic MSDS. > > 1910.1200(g) Material safety data sheets. (1) Chemical manufacturers > and > importers shall obtain or develop a material safety data sheet for > each > hazardous chemical they produce or import. Employers shall have a > material safety data sheet in the workplace for each hazardous > chemical > which they use. > > Since HCS is a performance standard, you have wide latitude as to how > you > achieve hazard communication, as long as your MSDS are complete and > technically accurate (both major caveats). For example, you could > write or > buy MSDS for all your chemicals and use none of the manufacturer's > MSDS. > For laboratories under 1910.1450, you are required to keep on file any > MSDS > that you receive, although you are not required to obtain them from > every > manufacturer. As to mixtures, I note > > 1910.1200(g)(2)(i)(C)(4) Where complex mixtures have similar hazards > and > contents (i.e. > the chemical ingredients are essentially the same, but the specific > composition varies from mixture to mixture), the chemical > manufacturer, > importer or employer may prepare one material safety data sheet to > apply > to all of these similar mixtures. > > Probably two bottles of polyethylene glycol with somewhat different MW > could share a MSDS, since they would have "similar hazards and > contents". > I keep reminding my chemists (who sometimes expect a MSDS to be a spec > sheet; they expect trace impurities to be listed) that MSDS are about > *hazards* more than exact chemical composition. Indeed, un