========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:15:26 +0300 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "sulaiman m. alfadul" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" HI...PLEASE HELP.... I want to provide me E-mails of graduate addmission depts. 1. Univ. Of Oklahoma, Norman, Oklahoma. 2. Oregon State Univ., Corvallis, Oregon. 3. Arizona State Univ., Tempe, Arizona. 4. Utah State Univ., Logan, Utah. 5. New Mexico State Univ., Las Cruces, New Mexico. 6. Ohio State Univ., Columbus, Ohio. 7. Univ. Of Arkansas, Fayetteville. Arkansas. 8. Univ. Of Nebraska., Lincoln. Nebraska. 9. Iowa State Univ., Ames, Iowa. 10. North Carolina State Univ., Raleigh, North Carolina. THANK FOR EVRY ONE. Sulaiman M. Al-Fadul KACST, GDRGP P.O.Box 6086 Riyadh - 11442 Saudi Arabia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:25:45 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: LABSAFETY-L Digest - 27 Nov 1998 to 29 Nov 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >We use a PETE juice bottle (approx 2 L) with 2 nails perforating opposite >sides acting as a spark gap. >About 2 mL of methanol, swirled provides the fuel. A large cork is the >projectile, a Tesla coil provides the spark across the gap. I've seen this demonstration done with a much smaller (500 mL) HDPE bottle with a narrow neck. The demonstrator pointed out that you need to pour out any excess methanol after coating the walls of the bottle. He also used two nails that almost touched. He had an interesting set-up to create the spark. I'll try to explain, but my memory is rather fuzzy on this detail. In other words, don't try this at home!! He had some alligator clips that had a push button switch and a 9V (???) battery. He could simply push the switch, which caused the spark. By using an HDPE bottle, there was little to no distortion of the bottle. The projectile travels very far-about 20 feet in the demo I saw-and should NEVER be pointed toward someone. >Not possible to repeat demo immediately due to accumulated CO2 in bottle >Rookie teacher attempeted to copy the "vets" without asking advice. Used about >25 mL. Ignition failed on initial attempt, then resulted in invisible fire >which melted (this time an appropriate term) Which destroyed the bottle The person I saw do this demonstration was careful to point out all of the safety features and potential problems associated with this demonstration. Like many other science experiments, when done with safety in mind, this can be a very effective learning tool. However, any person who performs demonstrations that is an "amateur" without adequate experience or knowledge should NEVER modify any written demonstration instructions without asking a safety expert or someone who is very knowledgeable in demonstrations about potential problems or safety concerns. I will only try a demonstration after receiving written instructions that clearly point out safety issues and only if the instructions are written by someone that I know is experienced and extremely knowledgeable about demonstrations. Students (and many high school teachers) are not technically qualified to perform demonstrations! My concern is that schools will try to ban demonstrations and experiments in the classroom due to liability issues. If we train our teachers properly in matters of safety, accidents like these are much less likely to occur. Unfortunately, teachers are often just not aware of the potential consequences in demonstrations. Just look at the poor safety record of the thermite reaction. My heart goes out to the families affected by this tragedy. Julie O'Brien The opinions I have expressed are strictly my own. Chemist PCR, Inc. PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 ext. 232 Fax 352-373-7503 afn35210@afn.org Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville PO Box 5951 Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: LABSAFETY-L Digest - 27 Nov 1998 to 29 Nov 1998 Comments: To: Martin Besant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain We use a 500mL bottle that was used to ship us H2O2. It is a very sturdy bottle and seems be holding up VERY well. Of course, we inspect it before every use. We also make sure to dump out any excess methanol before ignition. Something else that was suggested was to use screws rather than nails, as they are less likely to be blown out if the cork is put in place too firmly. Tammy Tayman ---------- From: Martin Besant To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: LABSAFETY-L Digest - 27 Nov 1998 to 29 Nov 1998 Date: Monday, November 30, 1998 7:09PM Dear Group Not sure how useful this info will be We use a PETE juice bottle (approx 2 L) with 2 nails perforating opposite sides acting as a spark gap. About 2 mL of methanol, swirled provides the fuel. A large cork is the projectile, a Tesla coil provides the spark across the gap. Cork travels about fifty feeet with accomp. noise, light and heat. Bottle is frequently wrenched from clamp or ringstand is displaced (knocked over). Heat distorts (melts is an in appropriate term for PETE since plastic does not soften but simply shrinks) plastic. Not possible to repeat demo immediately due to accumulated CO2 in bottle Rookie teacher attempeted to copy the "vets" without asking advice. Used about 25 mL. Ignition failed on initial attempt, then resulted in invisible fire which melted (this time an appropriate term) Which destroyed the bottle Marty Besant West Seneca East Sr HS A suburb of Buffalo NY where the lake is warm and the cold air must arrive soon = SNOW ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:38:33 -0500 Reply-To: fullert@bc.edu Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Thomas Fuller Subject: Re: Two way Radio Safety In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII In response to the recent request for information regarding the potential health effects of RF radiation I would like to offer the following comments which I hope are helpful. If anyone has any questions or comments please feel free to contact me directly. The health effects from exposure to Electric and Magnetic Fields (EMF) have been studied extensively over the past several years. In August 1998 the National Institute of Environmental Health and Sciences Working Group published a report entitled "Assessment of Health Effects from Exposure to Power-Line Frequency Electric and Magnetic Fields". The group concluded that Extremely Low Frequency EMF are POSSIBLY CARCINOGENIC TO HUMANS. This was a carefully selected and expert working grooup which made the evaluation in accordance with the "IARC Monographs Program on the Evaluation fo Carcinogenic Risks to Humans". Numerous other studies have indicated a variety of immunological, hematological, nervous system, reproductive and developmental, and tissue repair health effects associeated with exposure to other frequencies of electromagnetic fileds. The National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurements (NCRP) report munber 86 "Biological Effects and Exposure Criteria for Radiofrequency Electromagnetic Fields" and the "Institute of Electrical and ELectronics Engineers (IEEE) and American National Standards Institute (ANSI) "IEEE Standards for Safety Levels with Respect to Human Exposure to RadioFrequency Electromagnetic Fields, 3 kHz to 300 GHz" each set exposure limit recommendations based upon the estimation of health risks of exposure to EMF. Review of the biological effects literature indicates there is a good deal of information supporting the existence of thermal effects of radio-frequency and microwave radiation, including cataract formation, changes in animal behavior and effects on reproduction and development. Although the database has grown substantially over the past decades, much of the information concerning thermal and non-thermal effects is generally inconclusive, and sometimes contradictory. Studies of human populations have not demonstrated and reliably affected end points. In 1996 the Federal Communication Commission finalized guidelines to be used for evaluating human exposure to RF emissions. The guidelines incorporate limits for Maximum Permissible Exposure (MPE) in terms of electric and magnetic field strength and power density for transmitters operating between 300 kHz and 100 GHz. The decision to incorporate these guidelines was based upon comments received from the EPA, FDA, and numerous other federal agencies. Although alot of information has already been collected on the topic of RF exposure and the health effects there is still a significant amount of additional information needed. The number of reliable studies regarding the occupational health effects of any electromagnetic radiation has been relatively small. The study of radiofrequency radiation is an even smaller subset of that group. There is a considerable need for more studies that can be used to confirm or refute earlier studies on health effects. Thomas P. Fuller Radiation Safety Officer Boston College On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:30:41 -0600 Jeff Rubin wrote: > I have yet to see a study that definitively links RF emissions from > hand-held communications equipment with cancer. A recent review article in > Environmental Health Perspectives Supplements (M. H. Repacholi, v. > 105,Supplement 6, p. 1565-1568, 12/97) points this out, discussing the > difficulties encountered so far in demonstrating/ruling out a link between > exposure and cancer. He mentions a UK government study that found no link, > and refers to an international EMF project exploring non-ionizing radiation. > > There's a NIH project, EMFrapid, that looks at residential fields, but it's > mostly related to power generation and transmission. NIH/NIEHS publishes > Environmental Health Perspectives as well. The project home page is: > http://www.niehs.nih.gov/emfrapid/home.htm > > National Research Council published (via National Academy Press, publishers > of Prudent Practices) a study on potential health effects of residential > electric and magnetic fields. I'll bet LSW has it as well. Good > analytical (as opposed to most of what's out there - i.e, anecdotal) review > but doesn'ty specifically deal with RF from handheld communications. > > Hope this helps. > > JNR > > >Does anybody have any information on potential health risks associated with > >the wearing and use of two way radio transceivers in the workplace? > > > >Are there any short or long term risks from radio frequency emissions? > > > >Martin > > > Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS > College of Natural Sciences G2500 > W.C. Hogg Building > University of Texas at Austin > Austin, TX 78712-1199 > (512) 471-6176 (O) > (512) 471-4998 (F) > jrubin@mail.utexas.edu > > "The opinions of Dr. Rubin are not meant to offend anyone unless otherwise > specified." ---------------------- Thomas Fuller fullert@bc.edu Boston College ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Madelyn Miller Subject: ACS and contact lenses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Can someone provide me with a [hard] copy of the article that appeared in Chemical Health & Safety that dealt with the ACS' acceptance of contact for people who work in labs. If there are many of you that have the article would you email me directly and I'll give you my fax number so I get only one copy. Thanks in advance. ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Chemical Hygiene Officer, CCHO Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University mmiller@andrew.cmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:32:56 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Madelyn Miller Subject: ACS and contact lenses [got it] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII What a group!!! I've got my article. Thanks. Madelyn --- Begin Forwarded Message --- Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:19:27 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: Madelyn Miller Subject: ACS and contact lenses Sender: Madelyn Miller To: Labsafety listserver Reply-To: Madelyn Miller Message-ID: Can someone provide me with a [hard] copy of the article that appeared in Chemical Health & Safety that dealt with the ACS' acceptance of contact for people who work in labs. If there are many of you that have the article would you email me directly and I'll give you my fax number so I get only one copy. Thanks in advance. ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Chemical Hygiene Officer, CCHO Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University mmiller@andrew.cmu.edu --- End Forwarded Message --- ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Chemical Hygiene Officer, CCHO Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University mmiller@andrew.cmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:37:53 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: ADA Eyewashes and Showers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, We are shopping for new eyewash and safety shower equipment. We want to be compliant with the Americans with Disabilities Act. Any words of advice; experiences to share? Teresa R. Robertson CSUB CCHO ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:12:50 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Chang, Jim C" Subject: Re: ADA Eyewashes and Showers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Teresa Have you looked at the Watersaver line of safety showers and eyewashes? They make some very good ADA compliant units. One concept that I was never able to sell here but really think has potential is an ADA compliant shower unit with a separate handheld drench hose eyewash. The hose/eyewash will meet the ANSI standard for hands free operation, can be mounted so that it is accessible, but also can be used to reach over to a wheelchair bound or supine victim - something you can't do with a fixed unit. Good luck Jim Chang Safety Engineer Glaxo Wellcome Inc. -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson [SMTP:Teresa_Robertson@FIRSTCLASS1.CSUBAK.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 3:38 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: ADA Eyewashes and Showers Hello, We are shopping for new eyewash and safety shower equipment. We want to be compliant with the Americans with Disabilities Act. Any words of advice; experiences to share? Teresa R. Robertson CSUB CCHO ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:55:48 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Debbie Decker Subject: Re: ADA Eyewashes and Showers In-Reply-To: <9DEE49E3944DD211974B00805FE663DA77036B@US4N62> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > We are shopping for new eyewash and safety shower equipment. We >want > to be compliant with the Americans with Disabilities Act. Any words >of > advice; experiences to share? > > Teresa R. Robertson > CSUB CCHO Haws markets an ADA compliant eyewash/shower combo as does Lab Safety. But I like Jim's idea about the hose thingy attached to the shower - meets several needs. Deb. Debbie Decker EH&S UCDavis (530)754-7964 dmdecker@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:39:03 -0600 Reply-To: ShellyB@mail.uca.edu Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Shelly Bradley Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Methanol cannon A sparker for a gas grill works as well as a Tesla coil, is a lot cheaper, and can be found at your local discount or hardware store. Shelly Bradley Laboratory Coordinator Chemistry Department University of Central Arkansas Conway, AR 72035 (501) 450-5945 ShellyB@mail.UCA.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 10:57:33 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Burns Subject: MeOH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe it's me, but I find the thread on MeOH cannons very disturbing. Methanol is a very toxic, very flammable material, and it's being used for a demonstration as an explosive. In some cases, students are being allowed to use it themselves. Just what educational benefit is being gained? What are the students learning? I'm afraid they are learning some really poor practices. I'm glad my kids are all out of school. I doubt if the prudent person would be doing these demos. Bob "Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 814-238-1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 10:13:05 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Andrew Ippolito Subject: Re: MeOH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As a safety advisor for school districts for the past 10 years I support the opinion of Mr. Burns. The risks are greater than the benefit. A. J. Ippolito E2CC BOCES ---Bob Burns wrote: > > Maybe it's me, but I find the thread on MeOH cannons very disturbing. > Methanol is a very toxic, very flammable material, and it's being used for a > demonstration as an explosive. In some cases, students are being allowed to > use it themselves. Just what educational benefit is being gained? What are > the students learning? I'm afraid they are learning some really poor > practices. > > I'm glad my kids are all out of school. > > I doubt if the prudent person would be doing these demos. > > Bob > > "Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" > > Robert L. Burns > Group Leader, R&D > RUETGERS Organics Corporation > 201 Struble Road > State College, PA 16801 > phone 814-231-9214 > fax 814-238-1567 > email rburns@bigfoot.com > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:05:43 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Naomi Kelly Subject: Safety caps Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We have had several incidences of "explosions" of glass bottles of nitric acid (used for cleaning vaccum lines, glassware, etc.) obviously contaminated by "WHO KNOWS WHAT". The most recent incident was in our fluorine lab. The bottle was under a SINK (along with a number of other chemicals). The PI said it had been used for cleaning vaccum lines--recycled and used again and again. The students say they don't recall anyone opening the bottle for quite some time. Anyway, it blew out the sink, moved the entire cabinet structure, and hurled shards of glass up to 35 ft. Luckily, no one was in the lab at the time! My question to the group is: Does anyone know of a type of safety cap that would blow off or rupture to prevent the bottle from "exploding" in these incidences. I have recommended not recycling nitric when used in this manner, but I'm confident that not everyone will listen. I have checked with Sigma and Fisher. They do not know of anything. Naomi Kelly Environmental Health and Safety nkelly@clemson.edu (864) 656 - 7554 Fax: (864) 656 - 7630 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:28:04 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Madelyn Miller Subject: Re: Safety caps In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19981207150543.011a182c@mail.clemson.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII How about standard taper bottles? Madelyn On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:05:43 -0500 Naomi Kelly wrote: > We have had several incidences of "explosions" of glass bottles of nitric > acid (used for cleaning vaccum lines, glassware, etc.) obviously > contaminated by "WHO KNOWS WHAT". The most recent incident was in our > fluorine lab. The bottle was under a SINK (along with a number of other > chemicals). The PI said it had been used for cleaning vaccum > lines--recycled and used again and again. The students say they don't > recall anyone opening the bottle for quite some time. Anyway, it blew out > the sink, moved the entire cabinet structure, and hurled shards of glass up > to 35 ft. Luckily, no one was in the lab at the time! > > My question to the group is: Does anyone know of a type of safety cap that > would blow off or rupture to prevent the bottle from "exploding" in these > incidences. I have recommended not recycling nitric when used in this > manner, but I'm confident that not everyone will listen. I have checked > with Sigma and Fisher. They do not know of anything. > > > > Naomi Kelly > Environmental Health and Safety > nkelly@clemson.edu > (864) 656 - 7554 > Fax: (864) 656 - 7630 ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Chemical Hygiene Officer, CCHO Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University mmiller@andrew.cmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:32:29 +1300 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: John Downey Subject: Re: Safety caps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain My experience is that they would freeze unless you put teflon inserts in the stoppers. But might be okay. John > -----Original Message----- > From: Madelyn Miller [SMTP:mmiller@ANDREW.CMU.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 9:28 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: Safety caps > > How about standard taper bottles? > Madelyn > > > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:05:43 -0500 Naomi Kelly > wrote: > > > We have had several incidences of "explosions" of glass bottles of > nitric > > acid (used for cleaning vaccum lines, glassware, etc.) obviously > > contaminated by "WHO KNOWS WHAT". The most recent incident was in our > > fluorine lab. The bottle was under a SINK (along with a number of other > > chemicals). The PI said it had been used for cleaning vaccum > > lines--recycled and used again and again. The students say they don't > > recall anyone opening the bottle for quite some time. Anyway, it blew > out > > the sink, moved the entire cabinet structure, and hurled shards of glass > up > > to 35 ft. Luckily, no one was in the lab at the time! > > > > My question to the group is: Does anyone know of a type of safety cap > that > > would blow off or rupture to prevent the bottle from "exploding" in > these > > incidences. I have recommended not recycling nitric when used in this > > manner, but I'm confident that not everyone will listen. I have checked > > with Sigma and Fisher. They do not know of anything. > > > > > > > > Naomi Kelly > > Environmental Health and Safety > > nkelly@clemson.edu > > (864) 656 - 7554 > > Fax: (864) 656 - 7630 > > ---------------------- > Madelyn Miller > Chemical Hygiene Officer, CCHO > Environmental Health & Safety > Carnegie Mellon University > mmiller@andrew.cmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:38:53 -0600 Reply-To: ShellyB@mail.uca.edu Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Shelly Bradley Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: MeOH cannon We actually use ethanol instead of methanol because of the toxicity problem. Shelly Bradley Laboratory Coordinator Chemistry Department University of Central Arkansas Conway, AR 72035 (501) 450-5945 ShellyB@mail.UCA.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 12:48:17 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mike hinz Subject: Re: Safety caps Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Venting the bottle may not have helped. When you nitrate an organic substrate you may well be producing an explosive and a very strong one at that. Pick a different cleaning agent. Mike Hinz Chemistry Dept. Washington State University At 03:05 PM 12/7/98 -0500, you wrote: >We have had several incidences of "explosions" of glass bottles of nitric >acid (used for cleaning vaccum lines, glassware, etc.) obviously >contaminated by "WHO KNOWS WHAT". The most recent incident was in our >fluorine lab. The bottle was under a SINK (along with a number of other >chemicals). The PI said it had been used for cleaning vaccum >lines--recycled and used again and again. The students say they don't >recall anyone opening the bottle for quite some time. Anyway, it blew out >the sink, moved the entire cabinet structure, and hurled shards of glass up >to 35 ft. Luckily, no one was in the lab at the time! > >My question to the group is: Does anyone know of a type of safety cap that >would blow off or rupture to prevent the bottle from "exploding" in these >incidences. I have recommended not recycling nitric when used in this >manner, but I'm confident that not everyone will listen. I have checked >with Sigma and Fisher. They do not know of anything. > > > >Naomi Kelly >Environmental Health and Safety >nkelly@clemson.edu >(864) 656 - 7554 >Fax: (864) 656 - 7630 > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:58:00 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: David Zoromski Subject: Re: Safety Caps MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I would not recommend storing and reusing Nitric acid that has been used for cleaning for any reason. Pressure in the bottle can be developed by formation several gases (NOx, CO2, etc) released as the acid continues to work on contaminants picked up from the vacuum lines, etc. I would not even recommend using a loose-fitting cap because the fumes released will be corrosive and toxic. Organic nitrates are not the most stable compounds either. I find it interesting that one would routinely need to clean vacuum lines anyway, although I imagine anything can happen, e.g., in a school setting. Traps should always be used between the vacuum tap and the apparatus. What are the lines composed of? Are they acid proof? If one must use Nitric acid I suggest purchasing the lowest grade acid reasonably possible for cleaning and then cleaning your drains with it immediately after use and flushing with plenty of water (unless your drains aren't acid-proof, or your local environmental codes prohibit it). Additionally, acids should be stored in a lined acid storage cabinet, preferably vented. From the description it sounds like it was under the sink. If you decide to use an alternate storage container, be sure to label it clearly with the identifying text and safety warnings found on the original bottle. In my mind, it just isn't worth the risk. David Zoromski, chemist supervisor Wisconsin Animal Health Laboratory - Madison zoromdw@cahl.datcp.state.wi.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:02:45 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Methanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm having a hard time with the toxicity part of this discussion. I'd like to think that most of us are "risk assessors" and unless this experiment is being done everyday in chemistry class, I just don't see the concern over toxicity. Methanol's PEL is 200 ppm/over 8 hours. The greatest concern about the experiment for me is the flammabilty and physical forces at work which can be made very safe by proper safety education and diligent inspection of the equipment. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:00:00 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: Methanol Comments: To: Nick Pinizzotto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Or, perhaps, instituting the use of "safe" (or at least less suceptible to drastic failures) equipment. Tammy Tayman ---------- From: Nick Pinizzotto To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Methanol Date: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 12:02PM I'm having a hard time with the toxicity part of this discussion. I'd like to think that most of us are "risk assessors" and unless this experiment is being done everyday in chemistry class, I just don't see the concern over toxicity. Methanol's PEL is 200 ppm/over 8 hours. The greatest concern about the experiment for me is the flammabilty and physical forces at work which can be made very safe by proper safety education and diligent inspection of the equipment. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:02:32 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mike hinz Subject: Re: Methanol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd like to stand with Nick on this issue. If we are to make good use of the lessons from this most unfortunate incident then we should speak to proper supervision and proper respect for flammables. Our credibility is poorly served by running around with hands in the air screaming, "TOXIC! TOXIC!" in reference to a substance that is toxic if ingested but in normal usage not particularly a problem via inhalation. If toxicity by ingestion is a major focus in the laboratory setting then I suppose we ought to just shut all the labs down. Work to resolve the problems associated with real dangers. Don't go out of your way to make them up or you will find that life is lonely on the outside. Mike Hinz Chemistry Dept. Washington State University At 12:02 PM 12/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >I'm having a hard time with the toxicity part of this discussion. I'd like to >think that most of us are "risk assessors" and unless this experiment is being >done everyday in chemistry class, I just don't see the concern over toxicity. >Methanol's PEL is 200 ppm/over 8 hours. The greatest concern about the >experiment for me is >the flammabilty and physical forces at work which can be made very safe by >proper safety education and diligent inspection of the equipment. > > Nick Pinizzotto >Environmental Health Officer >Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >Thomas Jefferson University >nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >215-503-5853 > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:17:32 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Methanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've lost track of all that went on here. What experiment are we doing here? What is the value of popping a tennis ball into the air, other than making a bang? Bob "Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 814-238-1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com -----Original Message----- From: Tayman, Tammy To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 14:08 Subject: Re: Methanol >Or, perhaps, instituting the use of "safe" (or at least less suceptible to >drastic failures) equipment. > >Tammy Tayman > ---------- >From: Nick Pinizzotto >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject: Methanol >Date: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 12:02PM > >I'm having a hard time with the toxicity part of this discussion. I'd like >to >think that most of us are "risk assessors" and unless this experiment is >being >done everyday in chemistry class, I just don't see the concern over >toxicity. >Methanol's PEL is 200 ppm/over 8 hours. The greatest concern about the >experiment for me is >the flammabilty and physical forces at work which can be made very safe by >proper safety education and diligent inspection of the equipment. > > Nick Pinizzotto >Environmental Health Officer >Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >Thomas Jefferson University >nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >215-503-5853 > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:32:15 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: Methanol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have to agree with Bob on this. What is the value of this experiment in education? I would not be particularly happy to have my child participate in this type of activity at the high school level. Too many kids and not enough supervision for this to be managed in a safe manner. Remember the age of your student population and the lab experiences they have had or not had at this point in their education. For what its worth, Janeen. ***************** Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. >>> Bob Burns - 12/8/98 2:17 PM >>> I've lost track of all that went on here. What experiment are we doing here? What is the value of popping a tennis ball into the air, other than making a bang? Bob "Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 814-238-1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com -----Original Message----- From: Tayman, Tammy To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 14:08 Subject: Re: Methanol >Or, perhaps, instituting the use of "safe" (or at least less suceptible to >drastic failures) equipment. > >Tammy Tayman > ---------- >From: Nick Pinizzotto >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject: Methanol >Date: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 12:02PM > >I'm having a hard time with the toxicity part of this discussion. I'd like >to >think that most of us are "risk assessors" and unless this experiment is >being >done everyday in chemistry class, I just don't see the concern over >toxicity. >Methanol's PEL is 200 ppm/over 8 hours. The greatest concern about the >experiment for me is >the flammabilty and physical forces at work which can be made very safe by >proper safety education and diligent inspection of the equipment. > > Nick Pinizzotto >Environmental Health Officer >Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >Thomas Jefferson University >nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >215-503-5853 > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:49:34 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: Methanol Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: > a substance that is toxic if ingested but in normal >usage not particularly a problem via inhalation. While toxicity by ingestion and flammability are its most famous hazards, there is increasing evidence and awareness of its hazards by inhalation as well . . . April 14, 1998 MSDS - "Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. May cause visual impairment and possible permanent blindness. May cause effects similar to those described for ingestion. May cause skin irritation. May cause central nervous system depression. May be absorbed through the skin. May cause kidney damage. May cause respiratory and digestive tract irritation. May be fatal or cause blindness if swallowed. May cause fetal effects. Causes severe eye irritation and possible injury. Target Organs: Kidneys, central nervous system, eyes. Eye: Produces irritation, characterized by a burning sensation, redness, tearing, inflammation, and possible corneal injury. Vapors may cause eye irritation. May cause painful sensitization to light." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:58:22 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: John Juhala Subject: Re: Methanol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Whenever one conducts a public experiment, which carries some risk, the primary question has to be, "do the benefits justify the level of risk involved?" Clearly, based on what has already happened, the list of proper safety precautions cited to conduct the experiment safely, and the arguments on the toxcity or lack of using MEOH, there is a significant risk associated with this experiment. And, as has been already pointed out, and I have yet to see any proponents take exception to, there is little in the way of benefits from this experiment beyond entertainment for students and teacher(s) alike. I would agree with that assessment. I see little benefit in showing that igniting an explosive mixture of a flammable liquid in a confined space will hurl a projectile a considerable distance. This is demonstrated every time the trigger on a gun is pulled on TV or in the movies. Therefore, arguing that the experiment can be done safely if all the proper procedures are followed is pointless when there are no significant benefits. I think it was Jim Kaufman who pointed out early on that it is the worst case scenario that must be considered, and experience has shown in this case the worst is pretty bad. I think it somewhat indefensible for safety officers to support such a position. Such demonstrations are better left to those professionals conducting public fireworks displays. John Juhala Forensic Science Division Michigan State Police ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:36:12 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Ray Campbell Subject: Re: Methanol In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think that this is the most relevant comment to the original posting on this issue and weel thought out. Does anyone else remember the original posting? We tend to digress here a little too often. Ray Campbell REA CCHO 310-257-1080 At 02:58 PM 12/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >Whenever one conducts a public experiment, which carries some risk, the primary question has to be, "do the benefits justify the level of risk involved?" Clearly, based on what has already happened, the list of proper safety precautions cited to conduct the experiment safely, and the arguments on the toxcity or lack of using MEOH, there is a significant risk associated with this experiment. And, as has been already pointed out, and I have yet to see any proponents take exception to, there is little in the way of benefits from this experiment beyond entertainment for students and teacher(s) alike. > I would agree with that assessment. I see little benefit in showing that igniting an explosive mixture of a flammable liquid in a confined space will hurl a projectile a considerable distance. This is demonstrated every time the trigger on a gun is pulled on TV or in the movies. > Therefore, arguing that the experiment can be done safely if all the proper procedures are followed is pointless when there are no significant benefits. I think it was Jim Kaufman who pointed out early on that it is the worst case scenario that must be considered, and experience has shown in this case the worst is pretty bad. >I think it somewhat indefensible for safety officers to support such a position. Such demonstrations are better left to those professionals conducting public fireworks displays. >John Juhala >Forensic Science Division >Michigan State Police > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:30:34 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Methanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I do believe that MSDS have excellent information and that they are a cornerstone in laboratory safety. However, just as the article in CHAS (I believe it was "Calling Werewolf") stated a few months ago, MSDS information may make one think there are dangers lurking that with prudent practices just aren't there. MSDS have become for many companies a "cover your ass" document. The fact that the methanol MSDS in question states "May cause..." in front of every statement makes me question "where did this new information come from?" Are the statements from a toxicological study or did the company's lawyers suggest the statements be made to reduce liability IF anything happens. I have read too many MSDS that make statements like "use appropriate PPE" or "Dispose in accordance with all state, local, and federal standards" which tells me NOTHING about what these might be. We've become so concerned with litigation that where the MSDS should be providing us with information that helps assess the true risks (e.g. the poison is in the dose"), instead we are lead to believe we must wear moonsuits for everything. Perhaps I'm being a little exaggerative, but not as much as I wish. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson [SMTP:Teresa_Robertson@FIRSTCLASS1.CSUBAK.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 10:50 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Methanol LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: > a substance that is toxic if ingested but in normal >usage not particularly a problem via inhalation. While toxicity by ingestion and flammability are its most famous hazards, there is increasing evidence and awareness of its hazards by inhalation as well . . . April 14, 1998 MSDS - "Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. May cause visual impairment and possible permanent blindness. May cause effects similar to those described for ingestion. May cause skin irritation. May cause central nervous system depression. May be absorbed through the skin. May cause kidney damage. May cause respiratory and digestive tract irritation. May be fatal or cause blindness if swallowed. May cause fetal effects. Causes severe eye irritation and possible injury. Target Organs: Kidneys, central nervous system, eyes. Eye: Produces irritation, characterized by a burning sensation, redness, tearing, inflammation, and possible corneal injury. Vapors may cause eye irritation. May cause painful sensitization to light." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:30:59 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Walters.Douglas" Subject: Re: Methanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I may have missed part of this tread-- I seem to remember irreversible blindness and retinal damage and other eye damage occurs with a very small dose. That is part of toxicity too. Doug Walters > ---------- > From: Ray Campbell > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 1998 3:36 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: Methanol > > I think that this is the most relevant comment to the original posting on > this issue and weel thought out. Does anyone else remember the original > posting? We tend to digress here a little too often. > > > Ray Campbell REA CCHO > 310-257-1080 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:52:49 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Methanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yes, the original posting stated that this was a physics experiment I believe was to look at the distance the tennis ball was thrown. There is other safer equipment that could have been used to "propel" the tennis balls (e.g. those toy guns that shoot them) to illustrate the principle, which is a valid teaching objective. Since the administrative control of substitution is valid here, perhaps the real issue was the toy guns cost money, whereas this apparatus could be made cheaply and was disposable and only required the addition of a little "cheap" methanol. Overall, I'd say this situation is illustrative that keeping costs low in the short run may lead to larger costs in the long run. Provide the proper resources at the beginning and avoid problems later. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Ray Campbell [SMTP:ray.campbell@SPP.VARIAN.COM] Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 1:36 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Methanol I think that this is the most relevant comment to the original posting on this issue and weel thought out. Does anyone else remember the original posting? We tend to digress here a little too often. Ray Campbell REA CCHO 310-257-1080 At 02:58 PM 12/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >Whenever one conducts a public experiment, which carries some risk, the primary question has to be, "do the benefits justify the level of risk involved?" Clearly, based on what has already happened, the list of proper safety precautions cited to conduct the experiment safely, and the arguments on the toxcity or lack of using MEOH, there is a significant risk associated with this experiment. And, as has been already pointed out, and I have yet to see any proponents take exception to, there is little in the way of benefits from this experiment beyond entertainment for students and teacher(s) alike. > I would agree with that assessment. I see little benefit in showing that igniting an explosive mixture of a flammable liquid in a confined space will hurl a projectile a considerable distance. This is demonstrated every time the trigger on a gun is pulled on TV or in the movies. > Therefore, arguing that the experiment can be done safely if all the proper procedures are followed is pointless when there are no significant benefits. I think it was Jim Kaufman who pointed out early on that it is the worst case scenario that must be considered, and experience has shown in this case the worst is pretty bad. >I think it somewhat indefensible for safety officers to support such a position. Such demonstrations are better left to those professionals conducting public fireworks displays. >John Juhala >Forensic Science Division >Michigan State Police > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:06:24 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Methanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was in freshman physics, over 40 years ago, we had a demonstration of vectors and gravity. the Prof. shot a tennis ball out of a spring gun across the lecture hall. He shot it horizontally, and the gun also released another ball which fell vertically. Both balls hit the floor at the same time, an excellent demonstration of the points he wished to make, without any toxic and/or flammable materials. The spring gun looked home made. Bob "Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 814-238-1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com -----Original Message----- From: Helen B. Gerhard To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 15:56 Subject: Re: Methanol >Yes, the original posting stated that this was a physics experiment I >believe was to look at the distance the tennis ball was thrown. There is >other safer equipment that could have been used to "propel" the tennis balls >(e.g. those toy guns that shoot them) to illustrate the principle, which is >a valid teaching objective. Since the administrative control of >substitution is valid here, perhaps the real issue was the toy guns cost >money, whereas this apparatus could be made cheaply and was disposable and >only required the addition of a little "cheap" methanol. > >Overall, I'd say this situation is illustrative that keeping costs low in >the short run may lead to larger costs in the long run. Provide the proper >resources at the beginning and avoid problems later. > >Thanks! > >Helen > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ray Campbell [SMTP:ray.campbell@SPP.VARIAN.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 1:36 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: Methanol > > I think that this is the most relevant comment to the original >posting on > this issue and weel thought out. Does anyone else remember the >original > posting? We tend to digress here a little too often. > > > Ray Campbell REA CCHO > 310-257-1080 > > > At 02:58 PM 12/8/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Whenever one conducts a public experiment, which carries some risk, >the > primary question has to be, "do the benefits justify the level of >risk > involved?" Clearly, based on what has already happened, the list of >proper > safety precautions cited to conduct the experiment safely, and the > arguments on the toxcity or lack of using MEOH, there is a >significant risk > associated with this experiment. And, as has been already pointed >out, and > I have yet to see any proponents take exception to, there is little >in the > way of benefits from this experiment beyond entertainment for >students and > teacher(s) alike. > > I would agree with that assessment. I see little benefit in >showing > that igniting an explosive mixture of a flammable liquid in a >confined > space will hurl a projectile a considerable distance. This is >demonstrated > every time the trigger on a gun is pulled on TV or in the movies. > > Therefore, arguing that the experiment can be done safely if all >the > proper procedures are followed is pointless when there are no >significant > benefits. I think it was Jim Kaufman who pointed out early on that >it is > the worst case scenario that must be considered, and experience has >shown > in this case the worst is pretty bad. > >I think it somewhat indefensible for safety officers to support >such a > position. Such demonstrations are better left to those professionals > conducting public fireworks displays. > >John Juhala > >Forensic Science Division > >Michigan State Police > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:27:30 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: Methanol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I have to agree with Bob on this. What is the value of this experiment in education? I would not be particularly happy to have my child participate in this type of activity at the high school level. Too many kids and not enough supervision for this to be managed in a safe manner. Remember the age of your student population and the lab experiences they have had or not had at this point in their education. I would like to reiterate that this experiment or any other that was originally designed as a demonstration should NEVER be performed by students, especially at the high school level. The high school teacher was severely neglectful in this situation and obviously had no idea what the potential consequences were to the experiment as it was performed. Julie O'Brien The opinions expressed here are solely my own. Chemist PCR, Inc. PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 ext. 232 Fax 352-373-7503 afn35210@afn.org Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville PO Box 5951 Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:37:46 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: Methanol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" One of the more valuable pieces of information when assessing toxicity hazards are LD50 and TLV values. For methanol, this information is as follows. LD50 (oral) 5628 mg/kg LD50 (skin) 15840 mg/kg LD50 (inhal) >145,000 ppm (1hr) PEL 200 ppm TLV-TWA 200ppm (skin) With proper personal protective equipment, methanol is of very low acute toxicity. I think we as safety professionals can become "chemiphobic" if we are not careful. Many factors must be considered when assessing the risk of chemicals. MSDS information is a useful tool. However, it shouldn't be used as the final word, especially when assessing toxicological risks. Julie O'Brien The opinions expressed here are solely my own. >I do believe that MSDS have excellent information and that they are a >cornerstone in laboratory safety. However, just as the article in CHAS (I >believe it was "Calling Werewolf") stated a few months ago, MSDS information >may make one think there are dangers lurking that with prudent practices >just aren't there. MSDS have become for many companies a "cover your ass" >document. The fact that the methanol MSDS in question states "May cause..." >in front of every statement makes me question "where did this new >information come from?" Are the statements from a toxicological study or >did the company's lawyers suggest the statements be made to reduce liability >IF anything happens. I have read too many MSDS that make statements like >"use appropriate PPE" or "Dispose in accordance with all state, local, and >federal standards" which tells me NOTHING about what these might be. We've >become so concerned with litigation that where the MSDS should be providing >us with information that helps assess the true risks (e.g. the poison is in >the dose"), instead we are lead to believe we must wear moonsuits for >everything. Perhaps I'm being a little exaggerative, but not as much as I >wish. > Chemist PCR, Inc. PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 ext. 232 Fax 352-373-7503 afn35210@afn.org Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville PO Box 5951 Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:38:07 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: Methanol Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: > MSDS information >may make one think there are dangers lurking that with prudent practices >just aren't there. Granted. Extracting and evaluating useful information from MSDS requires practice, and is best used in conjunction with information from other sources as well (see additional information below). My point was meant to be that methanol is indeed an inhalation hazard (and absorption) as well as a poison by ingestion. Also note, methanol is considered a cumulative poison. >One of the more valuable pieces of information when assessing toxicity >hazards are LD50 and TLV values. For methanol, this information is as >follows. >LD50 (oral) 5628 mg/kg In reporting toxicity data, it is a must to specify the species used. Richard Lewis reports human death has occurred with a dosage lower than 30 ml, total, not per kg. Prudent Practices says the lethal human dose is 60 to 250 mls, total, not per kg, whereas 5628 mg/kg is equivalent to 383,700 mg for a 150 pound person. That's a difference of almost 4000% (at 100 ml LD, for example). >With proper personal protective equipment, methanol is of very low acute >toxicity. This is the key! It is a vaporous (inhalation) hazard; particularly for the eyes, both systemically and on contact. Use it in a fume hood. >I think we as safety professionals can become "chemiphobic" if we >are not careful. ...but it is far more common to become lax and indifferent with items we handle every day. From "Prudent Practices": "...vapors...such as methanol...dissolve predominantly in the lining of the nose and trachea and therefore tend to be absorbed from those regions. These sites of absorption are also potential sites of toxicity." and "...inhalation of methanol can produce headache, drowsiness, blurred vision, nausea, vomiting, blindness, and death. From "Lewis" DOT "poison". "Human systemic effects by inhalation: optic nerve neuropathy, visual field changes... It's main toxic effect is exerted upon the nervous system, particularly the optic nerves and possibly the retinae which can progress to permanent blindness... Methanol should be regarded as a cumulative poison." From "Sax" Even "where the exposure is less severe, the first symptoms may be blurring of the vision, photophobia and conjunctivitis, followed by the development of definite eye lesions...The visual symptoms may clear temporarily, only too recur later and progress to actual blindness. Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:06:04 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Methanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I wasn't referring specifically to methanol when speaking about the dangers lurking...what I was saying is that MSDS may list information that is based more on the reduction of liability rather than actual fact. Since the toxicological evidence you cite shows that inhalation is an issue for methanol, then the MSDS should have stated "Has caused" or "Has lead to" rather than 'May cause" which is often used as a phrase to show that customers were informed of possible problems (whether they are likely or not). I do use other sources for information including ChemFinder (http://chemfinder.camsoft.com/ ), the reactivity database (http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/chemaids/react.html ), and several books and databases. If in doubt, I've asked this listserve for information. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson [SMTP:Teresa_Robertson@FIRSTCLASS1.CSUBAK.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 1:38 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Methanol LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: > MSDS information >may make one think there are dangers lurking that with prudent practices >just aren't there. Granted. Extracting and evaluating useful information from MSDS requires practice, and is best used in conjunction with information from other sources as well (see additional information below). My point was meant to be that methanol is indeed an inhalation hazard (and absorption) as well as a poison by ingestion. Also note, methanol is considered a cumulative poison. >One of the more valuable pieces of information when assessing toxicity >hazards are LD50 and TLV values. For methanol, this information is as >follows. >LD50 (oral) 5628 mg/kg In reporting toxicity data, it is a must to specify the species used. Richard Lewis reports human death has occurred with a dosage lower than 30 ml, total, not per kg. Prudent Practices says the lethal human dose is 60 to 250 mls, total, not per kg, whereas 5628 mg/kg is equivalent to 383,700 mg for a 150 pound person. That's a difference of almost 4000% (at 100 ml LD, for example). >With proper personal protective equipment, methanol is of very low acute >toxicity. This is the key! It is a vaporous (inhalation) hazard; particularly for the eyes, both systemically and on contact. Use it in a fume hood. >I think we as safety professionals can become "chemiphobic" if we >are not careful. ...but it is far more common to become lax and indifferent with items we handle every day. From "Prudent Practices": "...vapors...such as methanol...dissolve predominantly in the lining of the nose and trachea and therefore tend to be absorbed from those regions. These sites of absorption are also potential sites of toxicity." and "...inhalation of methanol can produce headache, drowsiness, blurred vision, nausea, vomiting, blindness, and death. From "Lewis" DOT "poison". "Human systemic effects by inhalation: optic nerve neuropathy, visual field changes... It's main toxic effect is exerted upon the nervous system, particularly the optic nerves and possibly the retinae which can progress to permanent blindness... Methanol should be regarded as a cumulative poison." From "Sax" Even "where the exposure is less severe, the first symptoms may be blurring of the vision, photophobia and conjunctivitis, followed by the development of definite eye lesions...The visual symptoms may clear temporarily, only too recur later and progress to actual blindness. Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:50:06 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: NACHO and the Methanol Cannon Accident Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi NACHO Members.... This methanol cannon accident seems to have really stiffed up some conversation on the list. We're hearing from many folks about this one. Is there anything that NACHO might do, as a responsible professional association, to help reduce the likelihood of similar incidents occurring? Any suggestions. Anyone else planning to join us at the NACHO meeting in Hartford on Wednesday, January 6th at Trinity College from 6-9 pm? Would anyone like to have information faxed to them about the Lab Safety and/or CHO Seminar being offered on the 5th and 6th? .... jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, President The Laboratory Safety Workshop 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 LabSafe@aol.com Safety in Science Education The Laboratory Safety Workshop is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, seminar schedule, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. Visit our growing web site at www:LABSAFETY.ORG ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:24:14 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: Methanol In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I couldn't agree more with Helen's premise and have so written many times. Actually in many cases we can say that the warnings are appropriate for a 55 gal drum spilled in an enclosed space, or a tank car upset in a residential area. In the beginning of the Right to Know laws the shoe was sometimes on the other foot, as marketing opted for under warning for fear the "facts" would scare potential customers/ I prefer supplementing the MSDS with some reason and thoughtful resource such as Patty's Industrial Hygiene (now is 6 or more vol.) Mary Ann At 01:30 PM 12/8/98 -0700, you wrote: >I do believe that MSDS have excellent information and that they are a >cornerstone in laboratory safety. However, just as the article in CHAS (I >believe it was "Calling Werewolf") stated a few months ago, MSDS information >may make one think there are dangers lurking that with prudent practices >just aren't there. MSDS have become for many companies a "cover your ass" >document. The fact that the methanol MSDS in question states "May cause..." >in front of every statement makes me question "where did this new >information come from?" Are the statements from a toxicological study or >did the company's lawyers suggest the statements be made to reduce liability >IF anything happens. I have read too many MSDS that make statements like >"use appropriate PPE" or "Dispose in accordance with all state, local, and >federal standards" which tells me NOTHING about what these might be. We've >become so concerned with litigation that where the MSDS should be providing >us with information that helps assess the true risks (e.g. the poison is in >the dose"), instead we are lead to believe we must wear moonsuits for >everything. Perhaps I'm being a little exaggerative, but not as much as I >wish. > >Thanks! > >Helen > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Teresa Robertson >[SMTP:Teresa_Robertson@FIRSTCLASS1.CSUBAK.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 10:50 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: Methanol > > LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: > > a substance that is toxic if ingested but in normal > >usage not particularly a problem via inhalation. > > While toxicity by ingestion and flammability are its most famous > hazards, there is increasing evidence and awareness of its hazards >by > inhalation as well . . . > > April 14, 1998 MSDS - > "Inhalation: > May cause respiratory tract irritation. May cause visual > impairment > and possible permanent blindness. May cause effects >similar > to those > described for ingestion. > > May cause skin irritation. May cause > central nervous system depression. May be absorbed through the skin. > May cause kidney damage. May cause respiratory and digestive tract > irritation. May be fatal or cause blindness if swallowed. May cause > fetal effects. Causes severe eye irritation and possible injury. > Target Organs: Kidneys, central nervous system, eyes. > > Eye: > Produces irritation, characterized by a burning sensation, > redness, > tearing, inflammation, and possible corneal injury. >Vapors > may cause > eye irritation. May cause painful sensitization to >light." > Mary Ann Solstad, CIH 4 A's of Safety SOLSTAD Health & Safety Evaluations Attitude 16 Pequot Rd, Marblehead, MA 01945 Awareness 781-631-4748 tel, 781-631-1832 FAX Automatic Application Authority DivCHAS Chair, ACS msolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:06:26 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: NACHO and the Methanol Cannon Accident MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, I think the thread has raised everyone's awareness. I don't think we want to be in the position to dictate what someone should do- we have enough government agencies to do that! Bob "Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 814-238-1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com -----Original Message----- From: Labsafe@AOL.COM To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 21:12 Subject: NACHO and the Methanol Cannon Accident >Hi NACHO Members.... > >This methanol cannon accident seems to have really stiffed up some >conversation on the list. We're hearing from many folks about this one. > >Is there anything that NACHO might do, as a responsible professional >association, to help reduce the likelihood of similar incidents occurring? >Any suggestions. > >Anyone else planning to join us at the NACHO meeting in Hartford on Wednesday, >January 6th at Trinity College from 6-9 pm? > >Would anyone like to have information faxed to them about the Lab Safety >and/or CHO Seminar being offered on the 5th and 6th? .... jim > > ***************************************************** > James A. Kaufman, President > The Laboratory Safety Workshop > 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 > 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 LabSafe@aol.com > Safety in Science Education > >The Laboratory Safety Workshop is a national non-profit educational >organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and >important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory >Safety Guidelines, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, seminar >schedule, and membership information are available on request. > > The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. > Visit our growing web site at www:LABSAFETY.ORG > ********************************************************************** > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:13:58 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: American Chemical Society's Minimum Safety Guidelines for Chemical Demonstrations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" FYI- ACS had published guidelines to follow when performing chemical demonstrations. They are as follows. Chemical demonstrators must. . . 1. know the properties of the chemicals and the chemical reactions involved in all demonstrations presented. 2. comply with all local rules and regulations. 3. wear appropriate eye protection for all chemical demonstrations. 4. warn members of the audience to cover their ears whenever a loud noise is anticipated. 5. plan the demonstration so that harmful quantities of noxious gases (e.g. NO2, SO2, H2S) do not enter the local air supply. 6. provide safety shield protection wherever there is the slightest possibility that a container, its fragment, or its contents could be propelled with sufficient force to cause personal injury. 7. arrange to have a fire extinguisher at hand whenever the slightest possibility for fire exists. 8. not taste or encourage spectators to taste any nonfood substance. 9. not use demonstrations in which parts of the human body are place in danger (such as placing dry ice in the mouth or dipping hands into liquid nitrogen). 10. not use open containers of volatile, toxic substances (e.g. benzene, CCl4, CS2, formaldehyde) without adequate ventilation as provided by fume hoods. 11. provide written procedures, hazard, and disposal information for each demonstration whenever the audience is encouraged to repeat the demonstration. 12. arrange for appropriate waste containers for and subsequent disposal of materials harmful to the environment. Revised 6/4/88, Copyright 1988, ACS Division of Chemical Education, Inc. Permission is hereby granted to reprint or copy these guidelines proivided that they are reproduced in their entirety with no changes. Chemist PCR, Inc. PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 ext. 232 Fax 352-373-7503 afn35210@afn.org Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville PO Box 5951 Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:48:44 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: MeOH Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Any demonstrator MUST be a knowledgeable, highly skilled instructor. Demos >are often performed by high school teachers who have very little, if any, >training in safety. If teachers received better training in safety and the potential consequences in experiments and demonstrations, accidents would be less likely to occur in high school laboratories. I think safety training should be a part of the curriculum for all future teachers, regardless of what subject they teach. > >I would like to comment briefly on the educational value of this experiment. Combustion is one of the most common chemical reactions. Everyone has observed it at one time or another, whether it be a candle, wood, or something else burning. It is also one of the most misunderstood chemical reactions. Many people do not recognize that three things are required for a fire to start: fuel, a source of oxygen or other oxidizer, and an ignition source. While I've seen this concept illustrated by other, more safe demonstrations (such as burning a candle then smothering the flame with carbon dioxide), none have had as much impact in explaining combustion as this demonstration. Also, the concept could be just be described in the traditional lecture format--but it just is not effective at breaking down the preconceived notions that people have about combustion. The methanol cannon, when performed with the safety precautions I mentioned earlier, has been shown to effective in altering these preconceived notions. I do not know of any other demonstration that has been as effective. This demonstration is particularly effective in large lecture formats, where candles simply cannot be seen very well. The methanol cannon experiment has been performed by MANY chemistry instructors without incident for many years. As long as safety precautions are followed, this experiment has been performed without injury. > >The high school case which brought about this discussion was not using this experiment in an effective educational manner. It should not be used to teach projectile motion. There are many safer ways of illustrating projectile motion. > >The alcohol is the fuel, the oxygen is already in the bottle in the form of >air, and the ignition source is the small charge applied across the two >screws. Without all three "ingredients" in place, fire does not occur. The cork covering the opening of the bottle controls the amount of oxygen which can be consumed. No more oxygen, no more fuel, no more fire. > >This demonstration is typically performed in chemistry lectures with a second part. Immediately after the first ignition, the presenter tries again to cause the ignition, but the oxygen that was present in the bottle has been replaced with carbon dioxide formed during the first part of the demo. Nothing will occur. (Some demonstrators may not be aware of this fact at this point and will try to add more alcohol. This would be done by someone who clearly does not understand the point of the demo and is doing it for the "OOH! AAH!"effect only. Those kind of people are extremely dangerous.) > >The demonstration can also be used to illustrate the concept of vapor fires. One misconception I have encountered people having is that vapors in air cannot ignite. Some people also do not understand fires that "flash back". > >This reaction is much more controlled that it would seem on paper. (If performed with the safety guidelines I have described) The conditions have been carefully worked out by professional demonstrators over the years to minimize risk. > >Regarding the toxicity of methanol, the point I was trying to make earlier is that at the quantity of methanol which is used for the methanol cannon (2mL), the potential route of exposure (inhalation), and exposure time for pouring such a small amount into a container will not produce any serious toxic threat (as long as the person is wearing goggles and gloves). Certainly under other exposure conditions, methanol should be handled with great care in a fume hood. > >By the way, if you like decaffinated coffee, you are drinking small amounts of methanol with each sip. Methanol is used to decaffinate coffee. Some residual methanol remains in the grinds and does end up in brewed coffee. > >Julie O'Brien >The opinions expressed here are my own. > Chemist PCR, Inc. PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 ext. 232 Fax 352-373-7503 afn35210@afn.org Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville PO Box 5951 Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:47:00 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: Methanol Comments: To: "Helen B. Gerhard" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" And if you don't believe that MSDS are often ridiculously overboard in their cautionaries, check out one for sand, water, air, etc. I know that there are humorous versions running around, but I have actual commercial ones for these products and you would not believe some of the stuff on them. The one for sand includes the line: Avoid Inhalation. !!! Tammy Tayman ---------- From: Helen B. Gerhard To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Methanol Date: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 6:06PM I wasn't referring specifically to methanol when speaking about the dangers lurking...what I was saying is that MSDS may list information that is based more on the reduction of liability rather than actual fact. Since the toxicological evidence you cite shows that inhalation is an issue for methanol, then the MSDS should have stated "Has caused" or "Has lead to" rather than 'May cause" which is often used as a phrase to show that customers were informed of possible problems (whether they are likely or not). I do use other sources for information including ChemFinder (http://chemfinder.camsoft.com/ ), the reactivity database (http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/chemaids/react.html ), and several books and databases. If in doubt, I've asked this listserve for information. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson [SMTP:Teresa_Robertson@FIRSTCLASS1.CSUBAK.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 1:38 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Methanol LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: > MSDS information >may make one think there are dangers lurking that with prudent practices >just aren't there. Granted. Extracting and evaluating useful information from MSDS requires practice, and is best used in conjunction with information from other sources as well (see additional information below). My point was meant to be that methanol is indeed an inhalation hazard (and absorption) as well as a poison by ingestion. Also note, methanol is considered a cumulative poison. >One of the more valuable pieces of information when assessing toxicity >hazards are LD50 and TLV values. For methanol, this information is as >follows. >LD50 (oral) 5628 mg/kg In reporting toxicity data, it is a must to specify the species used. Richard Lewis reports human death has occurred with a dosage lower than 30 ml, total, not per kg. Prudent Practices says the lethal human dose is 60 to 250 mls, total, not per kg, whereas 5628 mg/kg is equivalent to 383,700 mg for a 150 pound person. That's a difference of almost 4000% (at 100 ml LD, for example). >With proper personal protective equipment, methanol is of very low acute >toxicity. This is the key! It is a vaporous (inhalation) hazard; particularly for the eyes, both systemically and on contact. Use it in a fume hood. >I think we as safety professionals can become "chemiphobic" if we >are not careful. ...but it is far more common to become lax and indifferent with items we handle every day. From "Prudent Practices": "...vapors...such as methanol...dissolve predominantly in the lining of the nose and trachea and therefore tend to be absorbed from those regions. These sites of absorption are also potential sites of toxicity." and "...inhalation of methanol can produce headache, drowsiness, blurred vision, nausea, vomiting, blindness, and death. From "Lewis" DOT "poison". "Human systemic effects by inhalation: optic nerve neuropathy, visual field changes... It's main toxic effect is exerted upon the nervous system, particularly the optic nerves and possibly the retinae which can progress to permanent blindness... Methanol should be regarded as a cumulative poison." From "Sax" Even "where the exposure is less severe, the first symptoms may be blurring of the vision, photophobia and conjunctivitis, followed by the development of definite eye lesions...The visual symptoms may clear temporarily, only too recur later and progress to actual blindness. Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:32:07 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Frank H. Lankewicz" Subject: Re: NACHO and the Methanol Cannon Accident In-Reply-To: <2c7ad67d.366dd74e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jim, Please fax me info on the CHO Seminar in Hartford. Thank You >Hi NACHO Members.... > >This methanol cannon accident seems to have really stiffed up some >conversation on the list. We're hearing from many folks about this one. > >Is there anything that NACHO might do, as a responsible professional >association, to help reduce the likelihood of similar incidents occurring? >Any suggestions. > >Anyone else planning to join us at the NACHO meeting in Hartford on Wednesday, >January 6th at Trinity College from 6-9 pm? > >Would anyone like to have information faxed to them about the Lab Safety >and/or CHO Seminar being offered on the 5th and 6th? .... jim > > ***************************************************** > James A. Kaufman, President > The Laboratory Safety Workshop > 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 > 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 LabSafe@aol.com > Safety in Science Education > >The Laboratory Safety Workshop is a national non-profit educational >organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and >important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory >Safety Guidelines, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, seminar >schedule, and membership information are available on request. > > The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. > Visit our growing web site at www:LABSAFETY.ORG > ********************************************************************** ______________________________ Frank H. Lankewicz Director/Chemical Hygiene Officer Environmental Health and Safety The University of the South 735 University Avenue Sewanee, TN 37383-1000 Ph: 931/598-1916 Fax: 931/598-1745 email: flankewi@sewanee.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:54:11 +1300 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Tony Subject: Re: Methanol Tammy You can drown in 2 inches of water and there is a whole generation of miners with Silicosis from inhaling sand. You can induce an air embolism by directing high pressure air at the skin. Remember that MSDSs are written for people who know nothing. You may not believe how little people know but I deal with them daily. Many people do not know what "Toxic" means but they do recognise Poisonous. I was once asked "What is an acid and is it dangerous". We scientists make a lot of assumptions but if you "assume" you can make an: ASS out of U and ME. On the Methanol question, the concern has been for the student. how about the demonstrator who does the experiment time after time. What is his exposure and finally WHY Methanol??? Cheers Tony NZ Fire Service (We thrive on other peoples lack of knowledge) :-) Attachment Converted: "c:\winnet\eudora\linda\attach\WINMAIL4.DAT" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:23:11 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Re: MeOH In-Reply-To: <199812091348.IAA25516@freenet5.afn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This has been quite a discussion - I couldn't resist tossing in a couple of items: 1) We've discussed it before, but an MSDS should NOT be viewed as a definitive reference. It provides some basic (and useful) data, but that tends to be as far as it goes. 2) In fire science classes for new firefighters in my volunteer dept. we use a low-tech combustion demo: light a candle, snuff it, then light the top of the smoke "trail" and watch it flash back to re-light the candle. Not only can the students see the flashback effect, but they see several additional principles as well. They can witness LEL/UEL (if you wait too long, the vapors will be too lean; if you don't wait long enough, they'll be too rich), the concept of vapor generation being necessary for ignition of solids or liquids, and a demonstration that smoke is indeed charged with fuel (all very important concepts for firefighters) - it's the smoke burning in flashovers and backdrafts. This would be a great school demo, as long as you could trust the students not to run home, try it, and set their house on fire. Onward, JNR Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu "The opinions of Dr. Rubin are not meant to offend anyone unless otherwise specified." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:22:33 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Methanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The entire point is that YES...There is a risk associated with everything you do. Getting out of bed in the morning means you will face risk....Staying in bed in the morning means you will face risk. However, there are probabilities involved. Drowning in 2 inches of water is a possibility but its probability is low under most conditions. Getting Silicosis has a high probability for miners who do not use proper PPE but is low for the person mixing sand into their garden soil. I have NO idea of the probabilities involved in the embolism example (although the Darwin award a few years back had someone blowing themselves up with supplied air at a gas station). MSDS should provide usable information to the people reading them. Perhaps there should be a sections for "Industrial Uses," Laboratory Uses," and "Consumer Uses" with defined amount information and wording to fit the accepted knowledge base for each area. While some materials are used by all three groups, I certainly hope that the common consumer doesn't have potassium cyanide on a shelf in their garage! I don't know how we deal with lawyers writing parts of the MSDS to reduce liability to the company. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: techton@ihug.co.nz [SMTP:techton@ihug.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:54 AM To: 'LABSAFETY-L Discussion List' Subject: RE: Methanol Tammy You can drown in 2 inches of water and there is a whole generation of miners with Silicosis from inhaling sand. You can induce an air embolism by directing high pressure air at the skin. Remember that MSDSs are written for people who know nothing. You may not believe how little people know but I deal with them daily. Many people do not know what "Toxic" means but they do recognise Poisonous. I was once asked "What is an acid and is it dangerous". We scientists make a lot of assumptions but if you "assume" you can make an: ASS out of U and ME. On the Methanol question, the concern has been for the student. how about the demonstrator who does the experiment time after time. What is his exposure and finally WHY Methanol??? Cheers Tony NZ Fire Service (We thrive on other peoples lack of knowledge) :-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:56:08 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mike hinz Subject: MSDS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My favorite MSDS is for HPLC grade water, the part where it says what to do if you get it in your eyes or on your skin. That's right, flush with water for 15 minutes. It occured to me that that is the equivalent of a life sentence of flushing. Mike Hinz Chemistry Dept. Washington State University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:13:01 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: MSDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I used to have one for sucrose which said use protective suit, gloves and a dust mask to handle. I gave up putting sugar in my coffee- too much trouble putting on the PPE!! "Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 814-238-1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com -----Original Message----- From: Mike hinz To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 15:00 Subject: MSDS >My favorite MSDS is for HPLC grade water, the part where it says what to do >if you get it in your eyes or on your skin. That's right, flush with water >for 15 minutes. It occured to me that that is the equivalent of a life >sentence of flushing. > >Mike Hinz >Chemistry Dept. >Washington State University > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:16:58 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Naomi Kelly Subject: Re: MeOH In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It has been quite a discussion, but enough! I'm tired of deleting. At 01:23 PM 12/9/98 -0600, you wrote: >This has been quite a discussion - I couldn't resist tossing in a couple of >items: > >1) We've discussed it before, but an MSDS should NOT be viewed as a >definitive reference. It provides some basic (and useful) data, but that >tends to be as far as it goes. > >2) In fire science classes for new firefighters in my volunteer dept. we >use a low-tech combustion demo: light a candle, snuff it, then light the >top of the smoke "trail" and watch it flash back to re-light the candle. >Not only can the students see the flashback effect, but they see several >additional principles as well. They can witness LEL/UEL (if you wait too >long, the vapors will be too lean; if you don't wait long enough, they'll >be too rich), the concept of vapor generation being necessary for ignition >of solids or liquids, and a demonstration that smoke is indeed charged with >fuel (all very important concepts for firefighters) - it's the smoke >burning in flashovers and backdrafts. This would be a great school demo, >as long as you could trust the students not to run home, try it, and set >their house on fire. > >Onward, > >JNR > > >Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS >College of Natural Sciences G2500 >W.C. Hogg Building >University of Texas at Austin >Austin, TX 78712-1199 >(512) 471-6176 (O) >(512) 471-4998 (F) >jrubin@mail.utexas.edu > >"The opinions of Dr. Rubin are not meant to offend anyone unless otherwise >specified." > > Naomi Kelly Environmental Health and Safety nkelly@clemson.edu (864) 656 - 7554 Fax: (864) 656 - 7630 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:57:14 +0000 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Karen Glover Organization: Clarke College Subject: Azeotropic removal of water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All: I remember some discussion on this list about less toxic solvents which may be used to replace benzene and/or toluene for the azeotropic removal of water. I am interested in knowing what solvents have been used and what your experiences have been with these replacements. You may respond to me directly. Thanks in advance! Karen Glover kglover@clarke.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 16:41:11 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: Methanol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On the Methanol question, the concern has been for the student. how about >the demonstrator who does the experiment time after time. What is his >exposure and finally WHY Methanol??? I'm not sure that the experiment is always done with methanol. Based on the physical properties, I don't see any reason why ethanol couldn't be used. Isopropanol may also be a possibility. Julie O'Brien Chemist PCR, Inc. PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 ext. 232 Fax 352-373-7503 afn35210@afn.org Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville PO Box 5951 Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:56:34 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: American Chemical Society's Minimum Safety Guidelines for Chemical Demonstrat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >FYI- >ACS had published guidelines to follow when performing chemical >demonstrations. >Revised 6/4/88, Copyright 1988, ACS Division of Chemical Education, Inc. Is there a more recent revision? Teresa >Chemist >PCR, Inc. >PO Box 1466 >Gainesville, FL 32602 >352-376-8246 ext. 232 >Fax 352-373-7503 >afn35210@afn.org >Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer >EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville >PO Box 5951 >Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:06:47 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Rama Singh Subject: EMERGENCY SHOWERS CONNECTED TO ELECTRONIC ALARM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There are times when disgruntled students have pulled emergency showers installed in hallways of our buildings causing massive flooding. The drainage just below the shower, if any, is not good enough to drain accumulated water at the speed of 30 gallons a minute. There is clearly a need to become aware immediately if an emergency shower has been pulled as a prank, especially during evenings or weekends. Has anyone else experienced this kind of problem and how it has been resolved? Your advice in this regard will be tremendously appreciated. I was wondering about flow switch attached to the water pipe of the shower that will trigger alarm at the site as well as signal to a central location. Is anyone aware of a system like this or a comparable system that can help to stop this massive flooding in time? Thanks for any suggestion or advice that will lead us to find a workable solution to this problem. Rama Singh ---- Rama Singh Safety Coordinator The School of Physical Sciences Phone: 949-824-2518 Fax: 949-824-3891 Pager: 949-262-6710 e-mail:rpsingh@uci.edu ZOT CODE 4675 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:27:59 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Re: EMERGENCY SHOWERS CONNECTED TO ELECTRONIC ALARM In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Most fire-protection sprinkler systems have flow-alarms, but it's unusual to have them area-specific. The monitor is generally near the building intake and simply indicates flow in the system. Does the vandalism you're worried about merit the expense of installing/connecting flow alarms on each shower? How common an occurrence is this (and what ever happened to plain old fire-extinguisher fights, which at least were relatively small amounts of water)? JNR Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu "The opinions of Dr. Rubin are not meant to offend anyone unless otherwise specified." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:29:30 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Julie J. O'Brien" Subject: Re: American Chemical Society's Minimum Safety Guidelines for Chemical Demonstrat In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Teresa Robertson wrote: > LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: > >FYI- > >ACS had published guidelines to follow when performing chemical > >demonstrations. > > >Revised 6/4/88, Copyright 1988, ACS Division of Chemical Education, Inc. > Is there a more recent revision? > Teresa I don't think so, but I'll check into it. I'm certain that no major changes have occurred. Julie O'Brien > >Chemist > >PCR, Inc. > >PO Box 1466 > >Gainesville, FL 32602 > >352-376-8246 ext. 232 > >Fax 352-373-7503 > >afn35210@afn.org > > >Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer > >EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville > >PO Box 5951 > >Gainesville, FL 32627 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:41:42 +0000 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nigel McCarter Subject: Isopropyl inhalation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Biologists have become increasingly aware of formaldehyde hazards over the last few years. In response, many have switched to isopropyl alcohol for sample preservation. Many ecologists prefer to sort samples wet, which entails gazing down a microscope into a petri dish of beasties pickled in 50% IPA. Over the course of the day, workers may become pickled themselves. I have concerns about the long term effects of isopropyl inhalation ... but I can't find hard data. Any views, data, reference papers??? Nigel McCarter Safety Management and Information Services Ltd Box 23 019 Hamilton New Zealand Phone (64) 7 858 2429 Fax (64) 7 858 2689 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:14:31 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Barb Moore Subject: Re: EMERGENCY SHOWERS CONNECTED TO ELECTRONIC ALARM In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Our showers are fitted with a horn that sounds when the shower chain is pulled. It is very loud (last about 10 mins) and can be heard between floors. They are available from Lab Safety at about $100.00 ea. I think VWR also has them. If you need the address for Lab Safety write me directly. Lab Safety No. 8B-24770 for the Alarm Station - 97.90 Lab Safety No. 8B-24771 for vertical alarm 81.60 Lab Safety No. 8B-30273 for horizontal alarm 81.60 Lab Safety No. 8B-24772 for replacement can. When testing the showers the chain to the alarm can be held or disengaged so that the alarm does not sound. We had a problem with the first type we purchased as they emitted flurocarbons, but the newer cans are ozone safe. Good Luck. Barbara Moore Administrative Manager The College of Wooster Biology Department ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:17:06 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Dewey Williams Subject: Re: MSDS In-Reply-To: <199812091956.LAA10700@cheetah.it.wsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12/9/98 -0800, you wrote: >My favorite MSDS is for HPLC grade water, the part where it says what to do >if you get it in your eyes or on your skin. That's right, flush with water >for 15 minutes. It occured to me that that is the equivalent of a life >sentence of flushing. > >Mike Hinz >Chemistry Dept. >Washington State University Reading some of our MSDS's, I get the feeling that most were copied verbatum, changing only the identification section. No indencation is made that the person writing the MSDS had any 'clue' what they were putting on paper. One I liked was for an eye-wash bottle containing standard saline. The accompanying MSDS said that, if you get it on your skin or in the eyes, "flush for 15 minutes with water"! Who comes up with this stuff, anyway? Dewey Williams - Lab Manager mailto:williams@email.uncc.edu UNC-Charlotte Chemistry Dept. http://www.chem.uncc.edu "These are my ideas and no one else will claim them." "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:02:55 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Hiram Patterson Subject: Hazard Communication and State Universities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have a general question for the list. The Texas Department of Public Health is significantly changing their Hazcom Act. On container labels they require both physical and health hazards, including target organs. This is for both primary and secondary containers. The physical hazards include combustible liquid, compressed gas, explosive, flammable, organic peroxide, oxidizer, pyrophoric, unstable, and/or water reactive. The health hazards would include carcinogens, toxic agent, reproductive toxin, irritant, corrosive, sensitizer, hepatotoxin, nephrotoxin, neurotoxin, hematapoetic agent, and/or agents which damage the lungs, skin, eyes, and mucous membranes. The target organ could be a wide range. Do any of the other states require this type and scope of information outside of perhaps California? How would you or do you cope with this type of requirement? What types of product are out there besides NFPA or HMIS labels which according to Texas aren't sufficient nor are the original labels? The only manufacturer which appears to include items like these on their labels is Baker. Hiram Patterson Environmental Health & Safety Manager Baylor College of Dentistry - Texas A & M System Dallas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:34:02 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Barb Moore Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities In-Reply-To: <220408D5FEF7D1119BBD00805FBB781607584B@EXCHANGE.tambcd.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This has been a problem for us here at Wooster. We have been trying to find suppliers who include all hazard and storage information on their labels. The ones that we are currently using for the bulk of our ordering are Spectrum Flinn VWR While they do not contain all the information, they contain much more than many others. BUT many of what I call exotics that we order have to come from a larger supplier like Sigma. I tried two years ago to ask them if they might chenage their labeling to include more information, but got nowhere. Perhaps this group could each request that their labels be changed to reflect the needs of many of us. There is sometimes power in numbers. Barb Moore Administrative Manager The College of Wooster Biology Department ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:37:04 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: EMERGENCY SHOWERS CONNECTED TO ELECTRONIC ALARM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Our showers are fitted with a horn that sounds when the shower chain is >pulled. It is very loud (last about 10 mins) and can be heard between >floors. I agree that the horns are the way to go - I believe their presence provides a deterrent to vandalism, plus affords the benefit of alerting others in the building that help is needed when the shower is activated legitimately. If you want something wired in to a central monitoring station, consider a water sensing switch installed at a low point in the building. (Perhaps where the water got to in the last incident.) Depending on the building layout, a single sensor might serve to monitor multiple shower (and other plumbing) stations. If your central fire alarm system is expandable, the additional sensor might run say, $500. to $2,000. to purchase and install, depending on how difficult it is to run the wires. >We had a problem with the first type we purchased as they emitted >flurocarbons, but the newer cans are ozone safe. I would venture to guess that your new horn propellant is flammable. A pet peeve of mine is that the quest for ozone layer protection has sometimes resulted in the re-introduction of hazards that the freons, etc. were (in part) intended to eliminate. Case in point: I have a can of "PerfectDuster", a.k.a. "EcoDuster II" (spray-type can with skinny tube on nozzle, used to blow dust off delicate instruments and the like). The label says it has "1,001 and one uses for home and office." There's a big green seal assuring me that it contains no ozone depleting CFCs. Just below it is a smaller international symbol for explosives, with accompanying warnings about flammability and the can's tendency to explode if left in a vehicle. The propellant is a mixture of dimethyl ether and 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane. Time to put away the soap box. I realize it's not much of risk in typical use, and the nature of manufacturer's warnings was well covered in our discussion of methanol and MSDSs. Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 Telephone: (610) 526-5166 | (610) 328-8564 Fax: (610) 526-7499 | (610) 328-7837 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:54:52 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Ray Campbell Subject: Re: EMERGENCY SHOWERS CONNECTED TO ELECTRONIC ALARM In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Talk to your alarm company. Most sprinkler systems are connected to a flow switch to trigger an alarm. They can point you at a system, I'm sure. Ray Campbell REA CCHO UCI Alumni 310-257-1080 At 06:06 PM 12/9/98 -0700, you wrote: >There are times when disgruntled students have pulled emergency showers >installed in hallways of our buildings causing massive flooding. The >drainage just below the shower, if any, is not good enough to drain >accumulated water at the speed of 30 gallons a minute. There is clearly a >need to become aware immediately if an emergency shower has been pulled as >a prank, especially during evenings or weekends. > >Has anyone else experienced this kind of problem and how it has been >resolved? Your advice in this regard will be tremendously appreciated. > >I was wondering about flow switch attached to the water pipe of the shower >that will trigger alarm at the site as well as signal to a central >location. Is anyone aware of a system like this or a comparable system that >can help to stop this massive flooding in time? Thanks for any suggestion >or advice that will lead us to find a workable solution to this problem. > >Rama Singh >---- >Rama Singh >Safety Coordinator >The School of Physical Sciences >Phone: 949-824-2518 >Fax: 949-824-3891 >Pager: 949-262-6710 >e-mail:rpsingh@uci.edu >ZOT CODE 4675 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:54:51 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "It's Me, Linda" Subject: Re: EMERGENCY SHOWERS CONNECTED TO ELECTRONIC ALARM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >There are times when disgruntled students have pulled emergency showers >installed in hallways of our buildings causing massive flooding. The >drainage just below the shower, if any, is not good enough to drain >accumulated water at the speed of 30 gallons a minute. There is clearly a >need to become aware immediately if an emergency shower has been pulled as >a prank, especially during evenings or weekends. > >Has anyone else experienced this kind of problem and how it has been >resolved? Your advice in this regard will be tremendously appreciated. > >I was wondering about flow switch attached to the water pipe of the shower >that will trigger alarm at the site as well as signal to a central >location. Is anyone aware of a system like this or a comparable system that >can help to stop this massive flooding in time? Thanks for any suggestion >or advice that will lead us to find a workable solution to this problem. > This happened at Chemistry a couple of years ago. The flooding was so bad that the ceiling below began to fall. There was asbestos in part of it apparently because they had to seal off the room and do major reconstruction. And it was just before finals. All of the big classes had to be split and relocated for their finals. We have looked into flood alarms because we have had other smaller but still significant incidents here at Biology. The flood alarms we have found will trigger an alarm, but I have not seen any that will turn off the source. But we weren't looking for that type since our problems could come from a number of sources. But with the alarm, atleast someone could be warned to come in and turn off the source themselves. A flood alarm would have saved us $14K worth of damage and 2 weeks of work to our vertebrate museum in October when someone left a gel dryer on and the hose escaped from the sink. Our computing and networking department compiled an estimate on alarms for the building, including the flood alarms. You may want to give yours a call and see if they can get you information on it. In my opinion, it would be worth it. Linda \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Linda S. Perez NAOSMM member #991 since 1994 Coordinator Ask Me! New Mexico State University Biology Department (505)646-3915 Box 30001 MSC 3AF (505)382-6547 pager Foster Hall Room 130 (505)646-5665 fax Las Cruces, NM 88003 liperez@nmsu.edu ***** http://pc-biology.nmsu.edu/linda/coordina.htm ***** ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:07:53 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Madelyn Miller Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities In-Reply-To: <220408D5FEF7D1119BBD00805FBB781607584B@EXCHANGE.tambcd.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII We have just signed a contract with BARA environmental solutions inc. , in San Marcos, Texas. They will take our chemical inventory and match their MSDSs on our web site through their server. They will also include 300,000 MSDS library, glove compatibility, waste codes and one can print the labels you want from your original list. If your interested their web site is http:www.bara.com We are very excited about the program and look forward to it's implementation the beginning on 1999! Madelyn ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Chemical Hygiene Officer, CCHO Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University mmiller@andrew.cmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:32:55 -0000 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "L. James Stock III" <34EMQ6K@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Subject: Re: Safety caps Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I buy safety venting caps for my 2.5L bottles of Conc. Sulfuric Acid that we add No-Chromix cleaning compound to. I buy them from Fisher Scientific. Cat.# 02-883A ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:32:28 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bill Schultz Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is such requirement in Maryland. There are several points which are not clear. Will the regulation apply only to chemicals covered by Hazard Communication or will it also apply to chemicals covered by Occupational exposure to hazardous chemicals in the laboratory? Who will be required to make the determination of hazard class and target organs, the manufacturer or end user? Would manufacturers increase prices in Texas or just stop selling there? Not selling there could be a viable economic decision depending on the cost of meeting the requirement. Some of the information you list for labeling is not present on many MSDSs'. For small quantity containers of research chemicals the label could end up being larger (and heavier) than the container. You use the term "is changing" so I assume that the change has not been finalized. Since it is almost impossible to change a regulation once it is issued I recommend that you follow the procedures in your state for submitting written comments expressing your concerns about the proposed changes. The only way you can cope with such a regulation after it is issued is to adhere to the regulation or plan for the fines in your annual budget. Bill Schultz Chemical Hygiene Officer USAMRIID ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Hazard Communication and State Universities Author: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List at Internet-Mail Date: 12/10/98 9:02 AM I have a general question for the list. The Texas Department of Public Health is significantly changing their Hazcom Act. On container labels they require both physical and health hazards, including target organs. This is for both primary and secondary containers. The physical hazards include combustible liquid, compressed gas, explosive, flammable, organic peroxide, oxidizer, pyrophoric, unstable, and/or water reactive. The health hazards would include carcinogens, toxic agent, reproductive toxin, irritant, corrosive, sensitizer, hepatotoxin, nephrotoxin, neurotoxin, hematapoetic agent, and/or agents which damage the lungs, skin, eyes, and mucous membranes. The target organ could be a wide range. Do any of the other states require this type and scope of information outside of perhaps California? How would you or do you cope with this type of requirement? What types of product are out there besides NFPA or HMIS labels which according to Texas aren't sufficient nor are the original labels? The only manufacturer which appears to include items like these on their labels is Baker. Hiram Patterson Environmental Health & Safety Manager Baylor College of Dentistry - Texas A & M System Dallas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:34:54 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: American Chemical Society's Minimum Safety Guidelines for Chemical Demonst MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >FYI- ACS had published guidelines to follow when performing chemical >> >demonstrations. Revised 6/4/88, Copyright 1988, ACS Division of >Chemical Education, Inc. >On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Teresa Robertson wrote: >> Is there a more recent revision? >> Teresa >> LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >I don't think so, but I'll check into it. I'm certain that no major >changes >have occurred. Julie, Thanks also for posting this info. If I'd heard of these guidelines before, I'd forgotten. They will play a very important part in our next procedural review. Thanks again, Teresa >Julie O'Brien >> >Chemist >> >PCR, Inc. >> >PO Box 1466 >> >Gainesville, FL 32602 >> >352-376-8246 ext. 232 >> >Fax 352-373-7503 >> >afn35210@afn.org >> >> >Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer >> >EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville >> >PO Box 5951 >> >Gainesville, FL 32627 >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:33:51 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Amy Gregory Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hiram, I thought it was bad enough when we were told to place NFPA labels on all of our chemicals here in OHIO! You really have a big job ahead. Currently, we order 75% of our chemicals from Fisher Scientific. Fisher lists NFPA codes, physical data, target organs and first aid on most of their bottles. Unfortunately, they do not carry many of the organics so we order those from Aldrich. Aldrich lists physical data and target organs, but they are quite brief. However, they are quick to provide an MSDS for each chemical. If you need prepared labels for secondary containers, you can try Lab Safety Supply (www.LabSafety.com). They have a decent selection of labels. Good Luck!!!! Amy R. Gregory Bio/Chem Lab Manager UC/Clermont College 4200 College Dr. Batavia, OH 45103 (513) 732-5316 At 09:02 AM 12/10/98 -0600, you wrote: >I have a general question for the list. > >The Texas Department of Public Health is significantly changing their Hazcom >Act. On container labels they require both physical and health hazards, >including target organs. This is for both primary and secondary containers. > > >The physical hazards include combustible liquid, compressed gas, explosive, >flammable, organic peroxide, oxidizer, pyrophoric, unstable, and/or water >reactive. The health hazards would include carcinogens, toxic agent, >reproductive toxin, irritant, corrosive, sensitizer, hepatotoxin, >nephrotoxin, neurotoxin, hematapoetic agent, and/or agents which damage the >lungs, skin, eyes, and mucous membranes. The target organ could be a wide >range. > >Do any of the other states require this type and scope of information >outside of perhaps California? How would you or do you cope with this type >of requirement? What types of product are out there besides NFPA or HMIS >labels which according to Texas aren't sufficient nor are the original >labels? The only manufacturer which appears to include items like these on >their labels is Baker. > >Hiram Patterson >Environmental Health & Safety Manager >Baylor College of Dentistry - Texas A & M System >Dallas > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:42:35 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: Methanol Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: > the reactivity database >http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/chemaids/react.html >Thanks! >Helen Helen, Thanks for this website! Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:32:05 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Neal Langerman Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Will someone please post the specific citation of the Texas Codes for this. If there is a URL to it, that would also be helpful. Thanks Neal > >I have a general question for the list. > >The Texas Department of Public Health is significantly changing their Hazcom >Act. On container labels they require both physical and health hazards, >including target organs. This is for both primary and secondary containers. > > >The physical hazards include combustible liquid, compressed gas, explosive, >flammable, organic peroxide, oxidizer, pyrophoric, unstable, and/or water >reactive. The health hazards would include carcinogens, toxic agent, >reproductive toxin, irritant, corrosive, sensitizer, hepatotoxin, >nephrotoxin, neurotoxin, hematapoetic agent, and/or agents which damage the >lungs, skin, eyes, and mucous membranes. The target organ could be a wide >range. > >Do any of the other states require this type and scope of information >outside of perhaps California? How would you or do you cope with this type >of requirement? What types of product are out there besides NFPA or HMIS >labels which according to Texas aren't sufficient nor are the original >labels? The only manufacturer which appears to include items like these on >their labels is Baker. > >Hiram Patterson >Environmental Health & Safety Manager >Baylor College of Dentistry - Texas A & M System >Dallas > > ************************************************************* NEAL LANGERMAN chemsaf@ix.netcom.com ADVANCED CHEMICAL SAFETY 8909 Complex Drive San Diego CA 92123-1418 619 874 5577 (phone) 619 874 8239 (FAX) 619 990 4908 (cellular) visit our homepage: http://www.chemical-safety.com ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:47:37 +1300 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Tony Subject: Re: Methanol Thanks Helen I can agree with you. Unfortunately most countries stipulate the contents of MSDSs and so they have to be all things to all men (and women) I actually have little faith in most MSDSs because they are written, as has already been said, as a form of backside protection. I have seen some shockers. Right to Know legislation often demands them and yet the people they are trying to protect won't understand 90% of what they contain. Risks have to be matched to the competency and knowledge of the participants. If you have toddlers in the workplace (kindergarten) then 2 inches of water is lethal. If you run a lathe and use high pressure air to clean it then it can be lethal. If you sand blast, then inhaling the dust for long periods can be lethal. The users need to be warned. All of these scenarios have killed people in my living memory. MSDSs may not be the best way but they protect the most backside. I guess the operator of the Methanol cannon that started all of this did not fully understand the risks and had never read the MSDS and will get his backside kicked or more. BTW Cyanide is widely used here by Possum trappers. All licenced etc. but one of them shook off his mortal coil last week by eating it. I guess he hadn't read the MSDS either. Cheers Tony Attachment Converted: "c:\winnet\eudora\linda\attach\WINMAIL5.DAT" M=!8@(/YF"W 7D0N &/0;E!TP%M#^=1!P'%0*P!=1!1 "0 GP7BP7``0@$$ ; MT6P)<&&N9!C@'3 >D7,+<&0D`]9A(3 %L&T;4F(`T!70NR6 %U!P`V 8L" ` M:0(@?Q?Q%K >,0@!J#<&5O"U BZ1F0GGD= MP1SR)R4?`6XG!4"/&( $@1D@&_(Y,"4;4OYW$$ M(QC@&M(+<1?Q*?#N0<]L( !& ND!?Q&Y3_`, 8X"J0!4 =,1J2'3 9(?L[\"3Q=3%5 M+R8:DAD#)I;Y-R8@9PI0!!$:DBV@!)#W&* %L37U33R2*I #(!;1_RJ0./(Q M03!1.H$<$!UB-?/M/%%D)8!-0V8:,!C1, F_&I(%$#*"&_(00%6191S0_P7 M)+)2E!NA&^,#\!UQ-<#_!4!5,B:7.@`I,1P0!;%,08%0ID)45R!#>0!P_R;B M/%$#\ $`5B(0<%?!!)![3>$8X% 9$#]0)D 9D&'^<$51*7!(E"#029$YP!P0 M_1" 8Q?P3I("(#76)D I`?QO:QM1&W!5,DQ!`9!34?YO`Q%"\A=@">!B`%Y1 M),#_&@`NP1> )\-11!JA5^$OPMU8C&47@020*85#&J I4?465%0"('D65&C+ M%$ !0 L68Q$Q`&K `P`0$ `````#`!$0``````,`@!#_____0 `',(!&$MBF M)+X!0 `(,*"8N3JH)+X!"P``@ @@!@``````P ```````$8``````X4````` M```#``* "" &``````# ````````1@`````0A0````````,`!8 (( 8````` M`, ```````!&`````%*%``"W#0``'@`E@ @@!@``````P ```````$8````` M5(4```$````$````."XP``,`)H (( 8``````, ```````!&``````&%```` M````"P`O@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````#H4````````#`#" "" &```` M``# ````````1@`````1A0````````,`,H (( 8``````, ```````!&```` M`!B%````````'@!!@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````-H4```$````!```` M`````!X`0H (( 8``````, ```````!&`````#>%```!`````0`````````> M`$. "" &``````# ````````1@`````XA0```0````$`````````'@`]``$` 8```%````4D4Z( `````#``TT_3<``&/2 ` end ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:16:00 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: UV Eye Protection Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a request for eye protection for use with an "arc lamp with lots of UV output". Suggestions, stories, advice? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:24:28 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: UV Eye Protection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Welding goggles? "Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 814-238-1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Friday, December 11, 1998 15:17 Subject: UV Eye Protection >I have a request for eye protection for use with an "arc lamp with lots >of UV output". > >Suggestions, stories, advice? > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:33:27 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: John Juhala Subject: Re: UV Eye Protection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you opt to use "welding" goggles for protection from UV you will need to use those designed for arc welding, not oxyacetylene or gas welding as they do not have adequate protection for high intensity UV radiation. Also, if you have lots of UV, you will need face/neck protection or else there will be lots of severe sunburn of the unprotected skin. John Juhala Forensic Science Division Michigan State Police ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:51:26 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Contact Lenses Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FYI - In light of the new posiotion by ACS that contact lenses are alright in the lab if proper protection is worn additionally, I thought you might be interested in the following (California law). Cal OSHA (actually called DOSH) Subchapter 7 General Industry Safety Orders Group 2 Safe Practices and Personal Protection Article 10 Personal Safety Devices and Safeguards 3382 Eye and Face Protection says (printed 12-11-98) - "NOTE: wearing of contact lens is prohibited in working environments having harmful exposure to materials or light flashes, except when special precautionary procedures, which are medically approved, have been established for the protection fo the exposed employee." I do not find the equivalent in the Federal OSHA standard for eye and face protection (standard number 1910.133, printed 5-27-97). Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:59:40 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: UV Eye Protection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Welding goggles? Welding goggles are typically used with oxy-acetylene gas welding/cutting, where the hazard is primarily IR, though I imagine you get significant UV protection as well, with the right filter shade. You may want to look at a full-face, flip-up type welding mask designed specifically for electric arc (stick) welding. Consult with a manufacturer or perhaps Lab Safety's technical staff for an appropriate filter shade. These provide higher levels of UV protection, as well as skin protection. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to see through these when the arc isn't lit, so they require a fair bit of flipping. Might need to look at gloves, other body coverings for the skin exposure. If there is an ignition hazard with the way the lamp is handled, welding garb may be ideal, due to its flame resistance. Lastly, be mindful of eye protection or shielding needs for visitors/observers in the area. In metal fabrication shops, the workers who end up with "welder's flash" are frequently the ones who work near the welders. Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 Telephone: (610) 526-5166 | (610) 328-8564 Fax: (610) 526-7499 | (610) 328-7837 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:53:25 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: John Juhala Subject: UV Radiation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Teresa If you opt to use "welding" goggles for protection from UV you will need to use those designed for arc welding, not oxyacetylene or gas welding as they do not have adequate protection for high intensity UV radiation. Also, if you have lots of UV, you will need face/neck protection or else there will be lots of severe sunburn of the unprotected skin. John Juhala Forensic Science Division Michigan State Police ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:31:20 -0400 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: UV Eye Protection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" NOTE: This is a duplicate of a posting I made a minute or two ago, to which I received dire warnings of "Mail Failure" and similar maladies from an intermediate server. Sorry if it's repetition. >Welding goggles? Welding goggles are typically used with oxy-acetylene gas welding/cutting, where the hazard is primarily IR, though I imagine you get significant UV protection as well, with the right filter shade. You may want to look at a full-face, flip-up type welding mask designed specifically for electric arc (stick) welding. Consult with a manufacturer or perhaps Lab Safety's technical staff for an appropriate filter shade. These provide higher levels of UV protection, as well as skin protection. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to see through these when the arc isn't lit, so they require a fair bit of flipping. Might need to look at gloves, other body coverings for the skin exposure. If there is an ignition hazard with the way the lamp is handled, welding garb may be ideal, due to its flame resistance. Lastly, be mindful of eye protection or shielding needs for visitors/observers in the area. In metal fabrication shops, the workers who end up with "welder's flash" are frequently the ones who work near the welders. Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 Telephone: (610) 526-5166 | (610) 328-8564 Fax: (610) 526-7499 | (610) 328-7837 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:07:39 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >Will someone please post the specific citation of the Texas Codes for >this. >If there is a URL to it, that would also be helpful. >Thanks >Neal I believe this to be a California requirement also. I've been looking in vain for an exemption that appies to us. Excerpts from the California Code (with web address) follow this excerpt from the Flinn Catalog. From the Flinn catalog: "Most laws state some minimum standard of labeling must be observed. This includes: Name of the chemical, Hazards, both physical and health, Name and address of the manufacturer. All states indicate that if the product is purchased and the label meets the standard, no further labeling is necessary. Some states, such as Oklahoma and New Jersey, require the CAS Number be part of the label. Massachusetts requires the NFPA Code be part of the label. Regardless of which state law you read, all solutions must be labeled with the hazardous ingredients and applicable warnings to meet the minimum standards." The California Law can be found at http://www.dir.ca.gov/title8/5194.html "Hazard Communication" Section (f) is "Labels and Other Forms of Warning". (f) (4) " ...the employer shall ensure tha each container of hazardous substances in the workplace is labeled, tagged, or marked with the following: (A) Identity of the hazardous substance(s) contained therein; and (B) Appropriate hazard warnings" Going backwards in the standard to the definitions - section(c) "Hazard warning. Any words, pictures, symbols, or combination thereof appearing on a label or other appropriate form of warning which convey the health hazards and physical hazards of the substance(s) in the container(s)." The definitions for health and physical hazards are the same as given by our friend, Hiram Patterson of Texas, in the original posting. Teresa >>The Texas Department of Public Health is significantly changing their >Hazcom >>Act. On container labels they require both physical and health >hazards, >>including target organs. This is for both primary and secondary >containers. >> >> >>The physical hazards include combustible liquid, compressed gas, >explosive, >>flammable, organic peroxide, oxidizer, pyrophoric, unstable, and/or >water >>reactive. The health hazards would include carcinogens, toxic agent, >>reproductive toxin, irritant, corrosive, sensitizer, hepatotoxin, >>nephrotoxin, neurotoxin, hematapoetic agent, and/or agents which >damage the >>lungs, skin, eyes, and mucous membranes. The target organ could be a >wide >>range. >> >>Do any of the other states require this type and scope of information >>outside of perhaps California? How would you or do you cope with this >type >>of requirement? What types of product are out there besides NFPA or >HMIS >>labels which according to Texas aren't sufficient nor are the original >>labels? The only manufacturer which appears to include items like >these on >>their labels is Baker. >> >>Hiram Patterson >>Environmental Health & Safety Manager >>Baylor College of Dentistry - Texas A & M System >>Dallas >> >> >************************************************************* >NEAL LANGERMAN chemsaf@ix.netcom.com >ADVANCED CHEMICAL SAFETY >8909 Complex Drive >San Diego CA 92123-1418 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:03:40 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Neal Langerman Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I do not know that Cal/OSHA requires Target Organs. The general meaning of the Cal/OSHA labeling stnds are to comply with 1910.1200 and the ANSI Std on Precautionary labels. Neal At 01:07 PM 12/11/98 -0700, you wrote: >LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >>Will someone please post the specific citation of the Texas Codes for >>this. >>If there is a URL to it, that would also be helpful. >>Thanks >>Neal >I believe this to be a California requirement also. I've been looking >in vain for an exemption that appies to us. Excerpts from the >California Code (with web address) follow this excerpt from the Flinn >Catalog. > >>From the Flinn catalog: >"Most laws state some minimum standard of labeling must be observed. >This includes: > >Name of the chemical, >Hazards, both physical and health, >Name and address of the manufacturer. > >All states indicate that if the product is purchased and the label >meets the standard, no further labeling is necessary. Some states, >such as Oklahoma and New Jersey, require the CAS Number be part of the >label. Massachusetts requires the NFPA Code be part of the label. >Regardless of which state law you read, all solutions must be labeled >with the hazardous ingredients and applicable warnings to meet the >minimum standards." > > >The California Law can be found at >http://www.dir.ca.gov/title8/5194.html >"Hazard Communication" >Section (f) is "Labels and Other Forms of Warning". >(f) (4) " ...the employer shall ensure tha each container of hazardous >substances in the workplace is labeled, tagged, or marked with the >following: >(A) Identity of the hazardous substance(s) contained therein; and >(B) Appropriate hazard warnings" > >Going backwards in the standard to the definitions - section(c) >"Hazard warning. Any words, pictures, symbols, or combination thereof >appearing on a label or other appropriate form of warning which convey >the health hazards and physical hazards of the substance(s) in the >container(s)." > >The definitions for health and physical hazards are the same as given >by our friend, Hiram Patterson of Texas, in the original posting. > >Teresa > >>>The Texas Department of Public Health is significantly changing their >>Hazcom >>>Act. On container labels they require both physical and health >>hazards, >>>including target organs. This is for both primary and secondary >>containers. >>> >>> >>>The physical hazards include combustible liquid, compressed gas, >>explosive, >>>flammable, organic peroxide, oxidizer, pyrophoric, unstable, and/or >>water >>>reactive. The health hazards would include carcinogens, toxic agent, >>>reproductive toxin, irritant, corrosive, sensitizer, hepatotoxin, >>>nephrotoxin, neurotoxin, hematapoetic agent, and/or agents which >>damage the >>>lungs, skin, eyes, and mucous membranes. The target organ could be a >>wide >>>range. >>> >>>Do any of the other states require this type and scope of information >>>outside of perhaps California? How would you or do you cope with this >>type >>>of requirement? What types of product are out there besides NFPA or >>HMIS >>>labels which according to Texas aren't sufficient nor are the original >>>labels? The only manufacturer which appears to include items like >>these on >>>their labels is Baker. >>> >>>Hiram Patterson >>>Environmental Health & Safety Manager >>>Baylor College of Dentistry - Texas A & M System >>>Dallas >>> >>> >>************************************************************* >>NEAL LANGERMAN chemsaf@ix.netcom.com >>ADVANCED CHEMICAL SAFETY >>8909 Complex Drive >>San Diego CA 92123-1418 > > ************************************************************* NEAL LANGERMAN chemsaf@ix.netcom.com ADVANCED CHEMICAL SAFETY 8909 Complex Drive San Diego CA 92123-1418 619 874 5577 (phone) 619 874 8239 (FAX) 619 990 4908 (cellular) visit our homepage: http://www.chemical-safety.com ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:13:38 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Guy Crawford Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19981210193205.006de38c@popd.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:32 AM 12/10/98 -0800, you wrote: >Will someone please post the specific citation of the Texas Codes for this. >If there is a URL to it, that would also be helpful. > >Thanks > >Neal Neal, that URL for the TX site is: http://www.sos.state.tx.us/texreg/archive/October301998/PROPOSED/health-serv ices.html#155 Good luck, Guy Guy M. Crawford Safety Manager EH&S Dept. UT-El Paso 3120 Sun Bowl Dr. El Paso, TX 76602 915-747-8115 "The opinions expressed are mine, and mine alone. No one else would dare claim 'em." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:38:09 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >I do not know that Cal/OSHA requires Target Organs. I'm just trying to sort this out myself, but to me the requirement to label "hepatotoxin, nephrotoxin, neurotoxin, hematapoetic agent, and/or agents which damage the lungs, skin, eyes, and mucous membranes" is pretty much the same as saying "target organs". What do you think? >The general meaning of >the Cal/OSHA labeling stnds are to comply with 1910.1200 Yes, that is the general meaning, but I've heard the states can embellish the fed laws as they desire, as long as there is no conflict. The EH&S director on this campus repeatedly cautions us to use the state regs and the fed regs; never the fed regs alone. Teresa >and the ANSI Std on >Precautionary labels. >Neal ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:12:50 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi: I clicked the URL and got "Not Found." Is there a better one? Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Guy Crawford [SMTP:guyc@UTEP.EDU] Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 4:14 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities At 11:32 AM 12/10/98 -0800, you wrote: >Will someone please post the specific citation of the Texas Codes for this. >If there is a URL to it, that would also be helpful. > >Thanks > >Neal Neal, that URL for the TX site is: http://www.sos.state.tx.us/texreg/archive/October301998/PROPOSED/health-serv ices.html#155 Good luck, Guy Guy M. Crawford Safety Manager EH&S Dept. UT-El Paso 3120 Sun Bowl Dr. El Paso, TX 76602 915-747-8115 "The opinions expressed are mine, and mine alone. No one else would dare claim 'em." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:16:58 -1000 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Peter Batsakis Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Colleagues, I'm not sure I'm following the thread of this discussion completely. I'm not sure if people are referring to labels on the original chemical container or on original and secondary containers. Of course, California and Texas may have more stringent requirements than the federal regulations, but Haz Com and the Lab standard only refer to original chemical containers and not secondary ones in a lab environment (please see 1910.1200(b)(3)(i) and 1910.1450(h)(1)(i) for appropriate sections). So, if your state does not have a more stringent regulation, there are no regulatory labeling requirements on secondary chemical containers in university labs. The university's Chemical Hygiene Plan may require appropriate labeling for secondary containers in labs, but the law does not. Is this how you are reading these federal regulations? Pete ********************************************** Peter Batsakis Chemical Hygiene Officer University of Hawaii at Manoa Environmental Health and Safety Office 2040 East-West Road, Honolulu, Hawaii 96822 Phone: (808) 956-3201 FAX: (808) 956-3205 E-mail: batsakis@hawaii.edu ********************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:24:51 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >Hi: I clicked the URL and got "Not Found." Is there a better one? >Thanks! >Helen Helen, I had the same experience, but was successful when I realized the address includes the "ices.html#155" on the second line. Good luck! Teresa >http://www.sos.state.tx.us/texreg/archive/October301998/PROPOSED/health- >serv > ices.html#155 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:30:47 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >I'm not sure if people are referring to labels on the original chemical >container or on original and secondary containers. Haz Com and the Lab >standard only refer to >original chemical containers and not secondary ones in a lab environment >(please see 1910.1200(b)(3)(i) and 1910.1450(h)(1)(i) for appropriate >sections). > Pete It is my opinion that great care must be taken with the regulations because they often fragment the information, and it is up to us to find all the pieces. Pete, I believe the two sections cited above are fragments. Section (f) of the haz comm standard specifically pertains to "labels and other forms of warning". Frequently, the standard refers to "manufacturers, importers, or distributors", but at times also specifically states "the employer shall ...." which is the case for (f)(5), of the Federal Reg, which is nearly identical to the Cal-OSHA Reg I quoted earlier: "...the employer shall ensure that each container of hazardous chemicals in the work place is labeled, tagged or marked with the following information: (f)(5)(i) Identity of the hazardous chemical(s) contained therein; and, (f)(5)(ii) Appropriate hazard warnings ... which ... will provide employees with the specific information regarding the physical and health hazards of the hazardous chemical." I believe when it says "each container", that it applies to secondary, as well as original. Also, the Fed definition of "health hazards" is the same as the list I contend can be interpreted as "target organs", neurotoxin, hematotoxin, etc. Yearning additional input . . . Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:29:34 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Hal Grunenwald Subject: Re: MeOH Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit To Bob Burns and others, Usually the objects of the lesson have to do with speed, trajectory and force. Are there other ways to do this - yes - but they are more complicated, less direct, much more expensive and less fun. I don't agree with students operating the cannon alone but under close supervision, I don't see the harm. Life is dangerous and if we remove all danger or at least the appearance of danger from our instruction the students don't learn to manage risk. They also learn proper safety procedures and how to plan for and manage risk. If the lesson is done properly. The appearance of risk is a great motivator for the lesson. The waterballoon slingshot is another, similar activity. Hal Grunenwald South Lewis CSD ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 01:11:30 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Hal Grunenwald Subject: Re: Methanol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-12-08 18:22:25 EST, you write: << Therefore, arguing that the experiment can be done safely if all the proper procedures are followed is pointless when there are no significant benefits. I think it was Jim Kaufman who pointed out early on that it is the worst case scenario that must be considered, and experience has shown in this case the worst is pretty bad. I think it somewhat indefensible for safety officers to support such a position. Such demonstrations are better left to those professionals conducting public fireworks displays. John Juhala Forensic Science Division Michigan State Police >> It is probabbly a good thing that you are not in k-12 Ed. PEOPLE, GET A LIFE!!! All of the talk of toxicity -, if there is any kind of breeze at all the students don't even get a whiff!!! when properly done about 6-8 ml of methanol, ethanol or naptha are used. This demo has been done thousands of times by thousands of classes across the US, Canada and Europe and with one report of an accident (yes I know people got hurt) you sit on your ivory lab bench and preach. I've been there! I've done it correctly and safely and IT HELPS KIDS LEARN!! MUCH OF THIS IS MOTIVATIONAL. It is a memorable experience from which students can gather real data about real movement in the real world and those memories help students remember important concepts. SOMEBODY PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE ME FROM THIS MADHOUSE!!! Harold J. Grunenwald Instructional Technology Coordinator Former: Safety Officer Science Chair Bio Teacher Environmental Sci teacher Chem Teacher and always A PHYSICS TEACHER ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:08:01 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: MeOH, Choices, and Acceptable Risk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-12-11 23:37:51 EST, you write: << Usually the objects of the lesson have to do with speed, trajectory and force. Are there other ways to do this - yes - but they are more complicated, less direct, much more expensive and less fun. I don't agree with students operating the cannon alone but under close supervision, I don't see the harm. Life is dangerous and if we remove all danger or at least the appearance of danger from our instruction the students don't learn to manage risk. They also learn proper safety procedures and how to plan for and manage risk. If the lesson is done properly. The appearance of risk is a great motivator for the lesson. The waterballoon slingshot is another, similar activity. Hal Grunenwald >> Hal's point is well taken and I agree with it. This is why LSW works so hard to help science educators and scientists to understand the choices and the consequences of those choices. Remember Lowrance's definition (Safety is a judgement about the acceptability of risk). Some of us like to go sky diving. Others will eat egg salad that 6 days old. Sure, there's no better place to learn about the hazards that exist in the world that by the side of a well informed, well protected, prudently acting science teacher. Few would likely argue against that. The problem comes when someone (if we are to believe the quote in the paper) hands a student a gallon of alcohol and pack of matches and walks away to work with another group of students. The tragedy that follows pulls at all our heartstrings and temps some to ban this and other activities. I don't believe that's the right answer. To me, it's a sad reminder that we need to do more. The accident rate in schools and colleges is 100-1000 times greater than places like Dow and Dupont. LSW has a collection of nearly 5,000 examples of things gone wrong in labs. Banning chemicals, demonstrations, experiments, biological materials, and field trips is not the answer. The answer is more hands-on science where teachers can answer the questions... (1) What re the hazards? (2) What can do wrong? (3) What will you do if the worst things do happen? (4) What are the prudent practices, protective equipment, and protective facilities needed to minimize the risk? If you are not already a member of LSW, consider joining. Help us to make health and safety an integral and important part of science education, work and life. ... jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, President The Laboratory Safety Workshop 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 LabSafe@aol.com Safety in Science Education The Laboratory Safety Workshop is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, seminar schedule, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. Visit our growing web site at www:LABSAFETY.ORG ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:08:07 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Melting Point Chemicals and HSE Conference Comments: To: CHEMCOM@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU, Safety , nsela-l@science.coe.uwf.edu, NAOSMM@LISTSERV.RICE.EDU, dchas-l@SIU.EDU, chemed-l@atlantis.uwf.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-12-12 00:14:47 EST, you write: << P-dichlorobenzene... For a melting point, we've given up using it. The fumes are too strong and the MSDS too scary >> Others have suggested using stearic acid. It's on the FDA GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) List. There will be a health and safety conference at Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut with a technical program and workshops in lab safety and chemical hygiene officer certification exam preparation. Presentations will include discussions of substituting less hazardous materials in place of more hazardous ones. ... jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, President The Laboratory Safety Workshop 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 LabSafe@aol.com Safety in Science Education The Laboratory Safety Workshop is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, seminar schedule, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. Visit our growing web site at www:LABSAFETY.ORG ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:47:01 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Methanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But tell us, how do you REALLY feel about it? -----Original Message----- From: Hal Grunenwald To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Saturday, December 12, 1998 01:12 Subject: Re: Methanol >In a message dated 98-12-08 18:22:25 EST, you write: > ><< Therefore, arguing that the experiment can be done safely if all the >proper procedures are followed is pointless when there are no significant >benefits. I think it was Jim Kaufman who pointed out early on that it is the >worst case scenario that must be considered, and experience has shown in this >case the worst is pretty bad. > I think it somewhat indefensible for safety officers to support such a >position. Such demonstrations are better left to those professionals >conducting public fireworks displays. > John Juhala > Forensic Science Division > Michigan State Police > >> >It is probabbly a good thing that you are not in k-12 Ed. > >PEOPLE, GET A LIFE!!! >All of the talk of toxicity -, if there is any kind of breeze at all the >students don't even get a whiff!!! when properly done about 6-8 ml of >methanol, ethanol or naptha are used. This demo has been done thousands of >times by thousands of classes across the US, Canada and Europe and with one >report of an accident (yes I know people got hurt) you sit on your ivory lab >bench and preach. I've been there! I've done it correctly and safely and IT >HELPS KIDS LEARN!! MUCH OF THIS IS MOTIVATIONAL. It is a memorable experience >from which students can gather real data about real movement in the real world >and those memories help students remember important concepts. > >SOMEBODY PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE ME FROM THIS MADHOUSE!!! > >Harold J. Grunenwald >Instructional Technology Coordinator >Former: >Safety Officer >Science Chair >Bio Teacher >Environmental Sci teacher >Chem Teacher and always >A PHYSICS TEACHER > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 22:07:24 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Shower/Eyewash Drains Comments: To: chemed-l@atlantis.uwf.edu, Safety , nsela-l@science.coe.uwf.edu, NAOSMM@LISTSERV.RICE.EDU, dchas-l@SIU.EDU, chemlab_L@vax1.bemidji.msus.edu, CHEMCOM@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Recently there's been some discussion about drains for emergency showers and eye wash fountains. Opinion is divided on whether to have drains or not. On the one hand you have the cost and the risk of spreading contamination. On the other hand you have clean up and testing problems. Don't allow the absence of drains to be a barrier to testing. The need to test them both regularly is clear. Safety showers at least once a month and eye wash fountains every two to three weeks for two to three minutes to avoid the build up of bacteria. So, if you have no drains for the eye wash fountain, buy or make a good size bucket, pail or whatever container that fits which will allow the testing to be done regularly. And, don't forget to tag the devices and date/initial the tag when testing is performed. ... jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, President The Laboratory Safety Workshop 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 LabSafe@aol.com Safety in Science Education The Laboratory Safety Workshop is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, seminar schedule, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. Visit our growing web site at www:LABSAFETY.ORG ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:10:38 -0600 Reply-To: "swiki@bihs.net" Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Swiki A. Anderson" Organization: Swiki Anderson & Associates, Inc. Subject: Re: Shower/Eyewash Drains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, I have some comments regarding this matter as indicated below... Hope they help.... Swiki Anderson. -----Original Message----- From: Labsafe@AOL.COM [SMTP:Labsafe@AOL.COM] Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 9:07 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Shower/Eyewash Drains Recently there's been some discussion about drains for emergency showers and eye wash fountains. Opinion is divided on whether to have drains or not. On the one hand you have the cost and the risk of spreading contamination. On the other hand you have clean up and testing problems. When we did the Exxon Research and Engineering Clinton, NJ project, this was a question/problem we dealt with. If one has emergency drains, they need to be connected to the chemical Drain-Waste-Vent (DWV) System, which is now becoming a double containment system in some situations. This can be costly. And, these systems, like any other DWV systems have to have P-traps in them. The problem with P-traps is that they dry out, especially in situations where the air is dry. This means that the traps then no longer contain vapors that may exist in the DWV system. Exxon elected to not connect the emergency showers in the Clinton Facility to a DWV system and elected to have a 55 gallon drum on a set of wheel that they used to roll around for this purpose. In other facilities where they did have the emergency showers connected to a DWV (some to the chemical and some to the sanitary system) they ended up pouring mineral oil in the drains to fill the traps so that vapors would not migrate back into the lab or building areas. Don't allow the absence of drains to be a barrier to testing. The need to test them both regularly is clear. Safety showers at least once a month and eye wash fountains every two to three weeks for two to three minutes to avoid the build up of bacteria. So, if you have no drains for the eye wash fountain, buy or make a good size bucket, pail or whatever container that fits which will allow the testing to be done regularly. And, don't forget to tag the devices and date/initial the tag when testing is performed. ... jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, President The Laboratory Safety Workshop 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 LabSafe@aol.com Safety in Science Education The Laboratory Safety Workshop is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, seminar schedule, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. Visit our growing web site at www:LABSAFETY.ORG ****************************************************************** **** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:06:36 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Burns Subject: hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi gang, Does anyone know anything about having an attack of hives from skin contact with chemicals? I spilled some diisopropyl naphthalene on my hand last Thursday, and came down with hives on Friday. I also had some canned Chinese food for dinner Thursday- high in MSG, among other things. The MSDS for the DIPN says it's not an irritant and does not sensitize. As CHO, I'm concerned. Since it's me, I'm even more concerned! Thanks in advance for any help you can give. Bob "Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 814-238-1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:42:50 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Barb Moore Subject: Re: hives In-Reply-To: <000901be2765$582a4d20$0100007f@BBURNS> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Two years ago, while disposing of chemicals, I came down with a terrible case of itching and burning over my entire body. I mean from the bottom of my feet to the top of my head. After several days of benedryl, I finally contacted a dermatologist. I've been fighting it ever since. Like you, I didn't know where the connection lay as I was under a lot of strain with classes, work, family, etc. I've been on several different medications since then and periodically would try to go off the medication to no avail. Finally just this last month it seems to have left (I hope). Good luck. I fully understand. Barbara Moore Administrative Manager Biology Department The College of Wooster ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:33:12 EST Reply-To: RFasano@ato.com Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Richard Fasano Subject: UV Eye Protection - Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Just got back in today and was reading the thread in reply to Teresa's message, which seemed to hit only PPE (i.e. "Welding Goggles"). I suggest a step back - what engineering & administrative controls have you tried that have failed leading you towards addressing the issue with PPE? Yes, don't say it, I know, PPE is the easy out; but it is not always the best one. For example, if the lamp is being used to photolyze samples, could an enclosure be constructed that is light tight with an interlock or shutter system? As was mentioned, how about protecting the other people in the lab? Does everyone get goggles? By the by, how is your ventilation? I ask because it has been my experience that ozone is an issue with arc lamp usage, or do we just put everyone in a respirator:) ? I think you need to look at the entire system/process/components/procedure and then make your recommendations/decisions/orders/edicts with these in mind. "All standard and really, really, good disclaimers apply." Rich Fasano, Supervisor SH&E Affairs Elf Atochem North America, Inc., King of Prussia R&D Technical Center ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:08:00 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: Methanol Comments: To: Hal Grunenwald MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Here, here! While I can't necessarily support the tone of this message, I do support the content. Having worked with students with ages ranging from 4 to 60-something, I have found that one has to be creative. I have also found that for the age group K-12, the best way to get their attention is with a BANG. I have done a series of demo's for a local "low income" summer day camp, and always start off by setting up the genie in a bottle demo. I then make a face when it doesn't work right away and turn to setting up something else. A few moments later the room becomes very quiet, with the exception of a low chorus of "ooooooh"s. The kids settle right down and I haven't even said a word! My point is that given appropriate supervision, and if using common sense on what should be done as a demo, things that at first glance and with a high level of paranoia might seem inappropriate to those who do not have "hands on" experience (with both the target "audience" and the procedure) may actually be perfectly applicable. I realize that we must use caution and _common sense_, but so should others when evaluating the issue! Tammy Tayman ---------- From: Hal Grunenwald To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Methanol Date: Saturday, December 12, 1998 1:11AM In a message dated 98-12-08 18:22:25 EST, you write: << Therefore, arguing that the experiment can be done safely if all the proper procedures are followed is pointless when there are no significant benefits. I think it was Jim Kaufman who pointed out early on that it is the worst case scenario that must be considered, and experience has shown in this case the worst is pretty bad. I think it somewhat indefensible for safety officers to support such a position. Such demonstrations are better left to those professionals conducting public fireworks displays. John Juhala Forensic Science Division Michigan State Police >> It is probabbly a good thing that you are not in k-12 Ed. PEOPLE, GET A LIFE!!! All of the talk of toxicity -, if there is any kind of breeze at all the students don't even get a whiff!!! when properly done about 6-8 ml of methanol, ethanol or naptha are used. This demo has been done thousands of times by thousands of classes across the US, Canada and Europe and with one report of an accident (yes I know people got hurt) you sit on your ivory lab bench and preach. I've been there! I've done it correctly and safely and IT HELPS KIDS LEARN!! MUCH OF THIS IS MOTIVATIONAL. It is a memorable experience from which students can gather real data about real movement in the real world and those memories help students remember important concepts. SOMEBODY PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE ME FROM THIS MADHOUSE!!! Harold J. Grunenwald Instructional Technology Coordinator Former: Safety Officer Science Chair Bio Teacher Environmental Sci teacher Chem Teacher and always A PHYSICS TEACHER ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:36:27 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Guy Crawford Subject: Re: Hazard Communication and State Universities In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:12 PM 12/11/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hi: I clicked the URL and got "Not Found." Is there a better one? > Sorry for the confusion, try http://www.sos.state.tx.us/texreg/archive/ then click on the October 30, 1998 issue and scroll down to the Occupational Health section, and click on the 25 TAC 295.1. That should get you into the proposed Texas HazCom changes. > Good luck, > Guy > Guy M. Crawford > Safety Manager > EH&S Dept. > UT-El Paso > 3120 Sun Bowl Dr. > El Paso, TX 76602 > 915-747-8115 > > "The opinions expressed are mine, and mine alone. > No one else would dare claim 'em." > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:59:26 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hi gang, > >Does anyone know anything about having an attack of hives from skin contact >with chemicals? I spilled some diisopropyl naphthalene on my hand last >Thursday, and came down with hives on Friday. I also had some canned >Chinese food for dinner Thursday- high in MSG, among other things. My husband once broke out in hives after synthesizing p-thioaminobenzene (I think??). He stopped working in the lab for a couple of weeks and the hives went away. He never worked on that project again. They pulled him out of the synthesis project and gave him a computational project to work on for the rest of the summer. I don't know if he had actual skin contact with the chemical, though. (I'll ask.) Many food allergies can result in hives. I'm never heard of hives with MSG but I wouldn't be suprised. I have gotten very light-headed and confused after eating food with large amounts of MSG; I also get a very severe headache. Too bad. I like chinese food. :( Julie O'Brien Chemist PCR, Inc. PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 ext. 232 Fax 352-373-7503 afn35210@afn.org Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville PO Box 5951 Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:11:23 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Thomas J. Shelley" Subject: Re: Shower/Eyewash Drains Comments: To: Safety.SAFETY@LIST.UVM.EDU In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On 12/12 Jim Kaufman wrote, in part: >Recently there's been some discussion about drains for emergency showers and >eye wash fountains. > >Opinion is divided on whether to have drains or not. On the one hand you have >the cost and the risk of spreading contamination. On the other hand you have >clean up and testing problems. ........stuff deleted........... Dear Jim and Colleagues--I have information that several years ago the Federal EPA excluded from regulation water discharged from an emergency safety shower or eyewash that went to the sanitary sewer. In other words, it is not a requirement that water from the activation of a safety shower to rinse sulfuric acid off the body of an exposed person be collected and neutralized before discharge to a sanitary sewer drain. This makes sense as the amount of the material splashed on the body in most situations is fairly small and the dilution provided by 15 minutes of flushing is substantial, even with sulfuric acid. I can see that some local water treatment plants might be uptight about this scenario, but I don't realistically see it as a problem. Perhaps the waste water treatment plant staff/managers need additional education? We have been mandating for several years now that safety showers and eyewashes be either equipped with a floor drain or otherwise plumbed into the sanitary sewer. This saves tremendous amounts of time, $, sleep and human anguish due to flooded and badly damaged research buildings. Having tight floors and well-sealed seams in the vicinity of safety showers and eyewashes helps, also. In the newer facilities I have seen, the floor adjacent to the safety shower slopes to the floor drain creating a catch basin for safety shower effluent. One or two newly constructed buildings had the floor drains "value engineered" out of the project. I would predict that the future costs of this "savings" will far outstrip the original perception of "savings." My $.02. Tom Shelley ********************************************************** Tom Shelley, Chemical Hygiene Officer, Cornell University, Department of Environmental Health and Safety, 125 Humphreys Service Building, Ithaca, NY 14853. (607) 255-4288 tjs1@cornell.edu @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ DISCLAIMER @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ The comments and views expressed in this communication are strictly my own and are not to be construed to officially represent those of my peers, supervisors or Cornell University. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:16:22 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Linda Swihart Organization: Purdue University Subject: definition of "high degree of acute toxicity" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies if this is old hat, please someone direct me to guidance on the criteria for chemicals with a "high degree of acute toxicity" as per the Lab Standard. Guidance on reproductive toxins would be geat too. Thanks, Linda ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:32:01 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Linda Swihart Organization: Purdue University Subject: Environmental Management Guide For Small Laboratories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have not yet seen discussion of this new booklet from the EPA. In phone discussions with colleagues recently there has been grave concern expressed about the way this document (EPA 233-B-98-001) almost seems to cross over from assisting and into regulating... Comments? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:42:49 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Harry Elston Subject: Re: definition of "high degree of acute toxicity" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:16 PM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >Apologies if this is old hat, please someone direct me to guidance on >the criteria for chemicals with a "high degree of acute toxicity" as per >the Lab Standard. Guidance on reproductive toxins would be geat too. > >Thanks, >Linda According to one book, called "The Dose Makes the Poison" (Sorry, no author available yet. I let someone borrow the book...), a "Highly Toxic" material is one which has a LD50 of 1-50 mg/kg. An "Extremely Toxic" material is one which has a median lethal dose of less than 1 mg/kg. (BTW, 50 mg/kg is about 3/4 a tsp of the pure material for an "average" adult). What do you want to know about a reproductive toxin? Harry Harry J. Elston, Ph.D., NRCC-CHO Chemical Hygiene Officer Illinois Department of Nuclear Safety Opinions are mine, not my employer's, blah, blah, blah "Sure baby, my kung-fu is the best." -Frohike, X-Files ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:17:55 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Linda Swihart Organization: Purdue University Subject: need exhaustive list of known repro toxins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I want to know exactly which chemicals require a "designated area" under the Lab Standard. The three criteria are "select carcinogens" - well explained, lists straightforward reproductive toxins - defined but no further guidance substances which have a high degree of acute toxicity - no guidance (and note that it's not just "highly toxic" but high ACUTE toxicity.) Thanks > According to one book, called "The Dose Makes the Poison" (Sorry, no author > available yet. I let someone borrow the book...), a "Highly Toxic" > material is one which has a LD50 of 1-50 mg/kg. An "Extremely Toxic" > material is one which has a median lethal dose of less than 1 mg/kg. (BTW, > 50 mg/kg is about 3/4 a tsp of the pure material for an "average" adult). > > What do you want to know about a reproductive toxin? > > Harry > > Harry J. Elston, Ph.D., NRCC-CHO > Chemical Hygiene Officer > Illinois Department of Nuclear Safety > Opinions are mine, not my employer's, blah, blah, blah > > "Sure baby, my kung-fu is the best." > -Frohike, X-Files ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:29:57 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: definition of "high degree of acute toxicity" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The Dose Makes the Poison This is the information I have on the book. GREAT READ! 2nd Edition M. Alice Ottoboni Van Nostrand Reinhold ISBN #: 0-442-00660-8 A plain language guide to toxicology. Reviews and explains the facts of chemical dangers in a clear and understandable manner. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Harry Elston [SMTP:helston@FGI.NET] Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 10:43 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: definition of "high degree of acute toxicity" At 12:16 PM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >Apologies if this is old hat, please someone direct me to guidance on >the criteria for chemicals with a "high degree of acute toxicity" as per >the Lab Standard. Guidance on reproductive toxins would be geat too. > >Thanks, >Linda According to one book, called "The Dose Makes the Poison" (Sorry, no author available yet. I let someone borrow the book...), a "Highly Toxic" material is one which has a LD50 of 1-50 mg/kg. An "Extremely Toxic" material is one which has a median lethal dose of less than 1 mg/kg. (BTW, 50 mg/kg is about 3/4 a tsp of the pure material for an "average" adult). What do you want to know about a reproductive toxin? Harry Harry J. Elston, Ph.D., NRCC-CHO Chemical Hygiene Officer Illinois Department of Nuclear Safety Opinions are mine, not my employer's, blah, blah, blah "Sure baby, my kung-fu is the best." -Frohike, X-Files ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:01:45 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mike hinz Subject: Re: definition of "high degree of acute toxicity" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The term, "reproductive toxins" is purposely vague to not only include mutagens, teratogens and any other substances or processes that may damage genetic material or fetuses but to allow for inclusion of as yet undefined possible epigenetic phenomena. Mike Hinz Chemistry Dept. Washington State University t 12:16 PM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >Apologies if this is old hat, please someone direct me to guidance on >the criteria for chemicals with a "high degree of acute toxicity" as per >the Lab Standard. Guidance on reproductive toxins would be geat too. > >Thanks, >Linda > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:02:20 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Scary Story I heard Today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi All: I was speaking with the company that handles our hazardous waste disposal and she told me this story. For the sake of clarity, I'll call her Mary. Mary had been asked to come out to a public high school to provide a quote for disposal of chemicals. Seems the school had decided to clean house. They got 4 rubbermaid containers and dumped everything together...peroxides, acids, bases, and even cyanide. There was no inventory as to what had been thrown into what container. They then put the containers out behind the school. When Mary saw them, they were baking in the hot sun. As soon as Mary saw this wicked brew, she called the company that handles their emergencies...they called the fire department. The fire department evacuated the school and dealt with the mess. Fortunately no one was injured. I have no idea the costs to the school were nor the regulatory mess this probably caused. The school told Mary she had overreacted although the fire department expressed their full gratitude for her quick thinking. Mary questioned the chemistry teacher who was in charge of the disposal as to who had mixed all these materials together. The teacher informed her that he had the students throwing the stuff into the containers. What they had left, they had stored in inventory in alphabetical order. I do not bring this up to imply that all high school chemistry teachers would act in this manner. However, I do think it brings up the need for us all to be cognizant of dangers that are out there. I don't know the educational background of this teacher, but obviously his understanding of chemistry was not adequate for working with the chemicals that were in his inventory, much less for disposal of the same. Thanks! Helen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:01:10 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mike Pirrello Subject: Re: Environmental Management Guide For Small Laboratories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I think the publication does a pretty good job of stating the applicable federal regulations. Despite the fairly general regulatory overviews, I didn't see evidence of the publication "regulating". In fact, as far as I can tell, the wording of the document makes it clear that much of the information is NOT a regulatory mandate. For example, the publication encourages the reader to "consider the following points," it gives examples of "common issues to address" and when giving guidance uses wording like "The following are some suggestions." The publication is also careful to say "in most cases" or "in most states" indicating that there may actually be more restrictive requirements on the state or local level. There were also plenty of checklists and a list of reliable resources (many of which were not government agencies). Was there something in specific that seemed overbearing on the regulatory side? The only time I noticed the "should/must" wording used was when counseling on how to avoid obvious regulatory violations or immediately dangerous situations (like in the case of storing incompatible chemicals). I took that to be appropriate since the guide was aimed at labs that don't have a full-time EH&S person on staff. Michael G. Pirrello, CHMM Safety & Environmental Mgr. Trimeris, Inc. Mpirrello@trimeris.com -----Original Message----- From: Linda Swihart [SMTP:swihart@PURDUE.EDU] Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 12:32 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Environmental Management Guide For Small Laboratories I have not yet seen discussion of this new booklet from the EPA. In phone discussions with colleagues recently there has been grave concern expressed about the way this document (EPA 233-B-98-001) almost seems to cross over from assisting and into regulating... Comments? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:11:25 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: definition of "high degree of acute toxicity" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >The term, "reproductive toxins" not only includes >mutagens, teratogens and any other substances or processes that may >damage >genetic material or fetuses We also include toxins that damage the reproductive organs themselves. Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:13:06 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: hives In-Reply-To: <199812141559.KAA14361@freenet5.afn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" At 10:59 AM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Hi gang, >> >>Does anyone know anything about having an attack of hives from skin contact >>with chemicals? I spilled some diisopropyl naphthalene on my hand last >>Thursday, and came down with hives on Friday. I also had some canned >>Chinese food for dinner Thursday- high in MSG, among other things. > >My husband once broke out in hives after synthesizing p-thioaminobenzene (I >think??). He stopped working in the lab for a couple of weeks and the hives >went away. He never worked on that project again. They pulled him out of >the synthesis project and gave him a computational project to work on for >the rest of the summer. I don't know if he had actual skin contact with the >chemical, though. (I'll ask.) > >Many food allergies can result in hives. I'm never heard of hives with MSG >but I wouldn't be suprised. I have gotten very light-headed and confused >after eating food with large amounts of MSG; I also get a very severe >headache. Too bad. I like chinese food. :( > >Julie O'Brien >Chemist >PCR, Inc. >PO Box 1466 >Gainesville, FL 32602 >352-376-8246 ext. 232 >Fax 352-373-7503 >afn35210@afn.org > >Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer >EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville >PO Box 5951 >Gainesville, FL 32627 > Our then young daughter came down with a serious case of hives (face like a basketball) one summer eve on a picnic. The offending food was lobster. She is now a marine biologist, and can handle live crustaceans in a limited amount, but gets hives if we hug her with hours of eating same. Also a son-in-law deathly allergic to nuts, (needs immediate shot and trip to ER.) except for almonds. Mary Ann Mary Ann Solstad 16 Pequot Rd Marblehead, MA 01945-1202 tel 781-631-4748, FAX 781-631-1832 outmsolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:19:42 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >Hi All: >I do not bring this up to imply that all high school chemistry teachers >would act in this manner. However, I do think it brings up the need >for us >all to be cognizant of dangers that are out there. I don't know the >educational background of this teacher, but obviously his understanding >of >chemistry was not adequate for working with the chemicals that were in >his >inventory, much less for disposal of the same. >Thanks! >Helen Not a lab problem, but we also have a high school currently in a predicament. Dozens of students are being sent to a clinic to be tested for lead exposure due to classes being held in a room undergoing renovation (lead-based paint), and the article in the newspaper said some of the students were assisting a teacher with the remodel. Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:30:15 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mike hinz Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There are a lot of art and history majors teaching chemistry and physics these days so I guess it is no wonder that the schools are not allowed to do much real chemistry in their labs. Mike Hinz Chemistry Dept. Washington State University At 12:02 PM 12/14/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hi All: > >I was speaking with the company that handles our hazardous waste disposal >and she told me this story. For the sake of clarity, I'll call her Mary. > >Mary had been asked to come out to a public high school to provide a quote >for disposal of chemicals. Seems the school had decided to clean house. >They got 4 rubbermaid containers and dumped everything together...peroxides, >acids, bases, and even cyanide. There was no inventory as to what had been >thrown into what container. They then put the containers out behind the >school. When Mary saw them, they were baking in the hot sun. As soon as >Mary saw this wicked brew, she called the company that handles their >emergencies...they called the fire department. The fire department >evacuated the school and dealt with the mess. Fortunately no one was >injured. I have no idea the costs to the school were nor the regulatory >mess this probably caused. > >The school told Mary she had overreacted although the fire department >expressed their full gratitude for her quick thinking. Mary questioned the >chemistry teacher who was in charge of the disposal as to who had mixed all >these materials together. The teacher informed her that he had the >students throwing the stuff into the containers. What they had left, they >had stored in inventory in alphabetical order. > >I do not bring this up to imply that all high school chemistry teachers >would act in this manner. However, I do think it brings up the need for us >all to be cognizant of dangers that are out there. I don't know the >educational background of this teacher, but obviously his understanding of >chemistry was not adequate for working with the chemicals that were in his >inventory, much less for disposal of the same. > >Thanks! > >Helen > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:37:00 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Harry Elston Subject: Re: need exhaustive list of known repro toxins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:17 PM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >I want to know exactly which chemicals require a "designated area" under >the Lab Standard. The three criteria are > >"select carcinogens" - well explained, lists straightforward >reproductive toxins - defined but no further guidance >substances which have a high degree of acute toxicity - no guidance > >(and note that it's not just "highly toxic" but high ACUTE toxicity.) > >Thanks > I would think that you could compare your current, in-use chemical inventory to a recognized source like Patty's and/or Brethricks. I'm not aware of a single source of information which will tell you everything you want to know...it takes some leg-work, time and some good reference materials. Good luck. Harry Harry J. Elston, Ph.D., NRCC-CHO Chemical Hygiene Officer Illinois Department of Nuclear Safety Opinions are mine, not my employer's, blah, blah, blah "Sure baby, my kung-fu is the best." -Frohike, X-Files ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:39:29 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: need exhaustive list of known repro toxins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Or...you can hire a good consultant....but that cost $$$$ Back to the old adage...If you're maximizing Quality, you can maximize cost or time...not both. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Harry Elston [SMTP:helston@FGI.NET] Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 12:37 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: need exhaustive list of known repro toxins At 01:17 PM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >I want to know exactly which chemicals require a "designated area" under >the Lab Standard. The three criteria are > >"select carcinogens" - well explained, lists straightforward >reproductive toxins - defined but no further guidance >substances which have a high degree of acute toxicity - no guidance > >(and note that it's not just "highly toxic" but high ACUTE toxicity.) > >Thanks > I would think that you could compare your current, in-use chemical inventory to a recognized source like Patty's and/or Brethricks. I'm not aware of a single source of information which will tell you everything you want to know...it takes some leg-work, time and some good reference materials. Good luck. Harry Harry J. Elston, Ph.D., NRCC-CHO Chemical Hygiene Officer Illinois Department of Nuclear Safety Opinions are mine, not my employer's, blah, blah, blah "Sure baby, my kung-fu is the best." -Frohike, X-Files ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:46:02 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: Methanol Comments: To: HALN2SSS@AOL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quite frankly, I am appalled that anyone could take such a cavalier attitude to the safety of my children. Maybe more of us need to be involved in K-12 education. Instructing anyone, regardless of age, in a safe manner is a moral obligation for every educator. It is my opinion that the instructor that handed that child a methanol cannon and walked away, was criminally negligent in his duties as a physics instructor. In this day of cuts to school budgets, ever growing student to teacher ratios, and declining performance on standardized tests nation wide, I think a return to basic instruction techniques may be a more prudent approach to education. The methanol cannon may have its place in an advanced standing or honors level class where students are fewer and have had more laboratory experience. I do not agree with the attitude that this type of shock tactics teaching benefits a child's educational experience. I'm betting that the kids who witnessed the tragedy that sparked(pardon the pun) this whole discussion, are probably not beating down the doors of the science faculty trying to plan a career in the sciences. I'll bet most will never want to take part in risky lab activities again. I'd even bet that most are turned off to science altogether. What can we do to make sure our schools are a safe place for our children to learn and be amazed by science? I propose that we get involved with our own school systems. The more we know about what is going on in the classrooms and labs the less likely this type of tragedy will occur. I have spent the last six years working diligently to make college labs safer for students and faculty alike. I guess its time to turn my attention to my community to make sure my children are never placed needlessly in harms way. ***************** Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. >>> Hal Grunenwald - 12/12/98 1:11 AM >>> In a message dated 98-12-08 18:22:25 EST, you write: << Therefore, arguing that the experiment can be done safely if all the proper procedures are followed is pointless when there are no significant benefits. I think it was Jim Kaufman who pointed out early on that it is the worst case scenario that must be considered, and experience has shown in this case the worst is pretty bad. I think it somewhat indefensible for safety officers to support such a position. Such demonstrations are better left to those professionals conducting public fireworks displays. John Juhala Forensic Science Division Michigan State Police >> It is probabbly a good thing that you are not in k-12 Ed. PEOPLE, GET A LIFE!!! All of the talk of toxicity -, if there is any kind of breeze at all the students don't even get a whiff!!! when properly done about 6-8 ml of methanol, ethanol or naptha are used. This demo has been done thousands of times by thousands of classes across the US, Canada and Europe and with one report of an accident (yes I know people got hurt) you sit on your ivory lab bench and preach. I've been there! I've done it correctly and safely and IT HELPS KIDS LEARN!! MUCH OF THIS IS MOTIVATIONAL. It is a memorable experience from which students can gather real data about real movement in the real world and those memories help students remember important concepts. SOMEBODY PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE ME FROM THIS MADHOUSE!!! Harold J. Grunenwald Instructional Technology Coordinator Former: Safety Officer Science Chair Bio Teacher Environmental Sci teacher Chem Teacher and always A PHYSICS TEACHER ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:49:54 +600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: JOHN HAWKINS Organization: Acorn Public Schools Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today In-Reply-To: <199812141930.LAA03080@cheetah.it.wsu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT It is not only non-science majors that cause a problem. When I took over the high school science position at my former school the chemicals were stored alaphabetically on shelves with rusted screws and nails. No fire, acid, or poison cabinets. Some chemicals unlabled, others so old the names did not have the proper nomenclature. I have a BSE. The man I replaced had a specialist's degree in science. I guess a degree is not indicative of common sense. The Flinn catalogue really helped get things on the right track. As this is my first message, in over a year of listening in, a brief intro. I taught high school biology, chemistry, physics etc. for 10 years. I am now in charge of my small rural school's alternative education program, which is a very good program. I never used a methanol cannon, but have used a potato cannon. Used hair spray as the propellant, to much and no ignition, unless opened up too soon in which case a backdraft might occur. I don't have a witty signature line. Don't need one, nobody pays attention to my opinion anyway. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:59:47 +600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: JOHN HAWKINS Organization: Acorn Public Schools Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT It is not only non-science majors that cause a problem. When I took over the high school science position at my former school the chemicals were stored alaphabetically on shelves with rusted screws and nails. No fire, acid, or poison cabinets. Some chemicals unlabled, others so old the names did not have the proper nomenclature. I have a BSE. The man I replaced had a specialist's degree in science. I guess a degree is not indicative of common sense. The Flinn catalogue really helped get things on the right track. As this is my first message, in over a year of listening in, a brief intro. I taught high school biology, chemistry, physics etc. for 10 years. I am now in charge of my small rural school's alternative education program, which is a very good program. I never used a methanol cannon, but have used a potato cannon. Used hair spray as the propellant, to much and no ignition, unless opened up too soon in which case a backdraft might occur. I don't have a witty signature line. Don't need one, nobody pays attention to my opinion anyway. JOHN C. HAWKINS ACORN HIGH SCHOOL-AALPS 143 POLK 96 MENA, AR 71953 HAWKINSJ@ACORN.DMSC.K12.AR.US JOHN C. HAWKINS ACORN HIGH SCHOOL-AALPS 143 POLK 96 MENA, AR 71953 HAWKINSJ@ACORN.DMSC.K12.AR.US ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:23:26 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Methanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The ACS has a Volunteers in Public Outreach program. They have a catalog of materials that can be ordered to help you make presentations or provide information, suggestions to help in the community, and have other support info. You are absolutely correct that each of us should be involved in someway to help others understand how neat science is but at the same time, provide a realistic picture of the risks and benefits that may be encountered along the way. Getting involved is the first step. If you're interested in the ACS VIP program, go to http://www.acs.org/pafgen/vip/vipform.htm Or call 1-800-227-5558, ext 6293 or 202-452-2107 Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Janeen LaPierre [SMTP:JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU] Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 7:46 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Methanol Quite frankly, I am appalled that anyone could take such a cavalier attitude to the safety of my children. Maybe more of us need to be involved in K-12 education. Instructing anyone, regardless of age, in a safe manner is a moral obligation for every educator. It is my opinion that the instructor that handed that child a methanol cannon and walked away, was criminally negligent in his duties as a physics instructor. In this day of cuts to school budgets, ever growing student to teacher ratios, and declining performance on standardized tests nation wide, I think a return to basic instruction techniques may be a more prudent approach to education. The methanol cannon may have its place in an advanced standing or honors level class where students are fewer and have had more laboratory experience. I do not agree with the attitude that this type of shock tactics teaching benefits a child's educational experience. I'm betting that the kids who witnessed the tragedy that sparked(pardon the pun) this whole discussion, are probably not beating down the doors of the science faculty trying to plan a career in the sciences. I'll bet most will never want to take part in risky lab activities again. I'd even bet that most are turned off to science altogether. What can we do to make sure our schools are a safe place for our children to learn and be amazed by science? I propose that we get involved with our own school systems. The more we know about what is going on in the classrooms and labs the less likely this type of tragedy will occur. I have spent the last six years working diligently to make college labs safer for students and faculty alike. I guess its time to turn my attention to my community to make sure my children are never placed needlessly in harms way. ***************** Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. >>> Hal Grunenwald - 12/12/98 1:11 AM >>> In a message dated 98-12-08 18:22:25 EST, you write: << Therefore, arguing that the experiment can be done safely if all the proper procedures are followed is pointless when there are no significant benefits. I think it was Jim Kaufman who pointed out early on that it is the worst case scenario that must be considered, and experience has shown in this case the worst is pretty bad. I think it somewhat indefensible for safety officers to support such a position. Such demonstrations are better left to those professionals conducting public fireworks displays. John Juhala Forensic Science Division Michigan State Police >> It is probabbly a good thing that you are not in k-12 Ed. PEOPLE, GET A LIFE!!! All of the talk of toxicity -, if there is any kind of breeze at all the students don't even get a whiff!!! when properly done about 6-8 ml of methanol, ethanol or naptha are used. This demo has been done thousands of times by thousands of classes across the US, Canada and Europe and with one report of an accident (yes I know people got hurt) you sit on your ivory lab bench and preach. I've been there! I've done it correctly and safely and IT HELPS KIDS LEARN!! MUCH OF THIS IS MOTIVATIONAL. It is a memorable experience from which students can gather real data about real movement in the real world and those memories help students remember important concepts. SOMEBODY PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE ME FROM THIS MADHOUSE!!! Harold J. Grunenwald Instructional Technology Coordinator Former: Safety Officer Science Chair Bio Teacher Environmental Sci teacher Chem Teacher and always A PHYSICS TEACHER ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:34:23 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Dewey Williams Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I heard this one from a science teacher. When she started teaching science at one school, the science supply room was full of chemicals; acids, bases, solvents, including benzene, carbon tet, dichloromethane and many other things without labels. She sorted the things out that could be used and put those that didn't have labels or she didn't want in a separate area. She then went to the principal and told him that these chemicals needed disposal. The principal looked at the hazardous waste, called other administrators, who looked at it and they, supposedly, looked into the cost of disposing of the materials. Finally, the principal and another administrator had a meeting with the teacher. They told her to take all the chemicals and pour them in the parking lot after hours. She was appalled, of course, because she knew this was not the proper way to dispose of these things. She refused to do this so she had to keep them in storage. Dewey Williams - Lab Manager mailto:williams@email.uncc.edu UNC-Charlotte Chemistry Dept. http://www.chem.uncc.edu "These are my ideas and no one else will claim them." "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:40:25 +600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: JOHN HAWKINS Organization: Acorn Public Schools Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT About 6 years ago my state, Arkansas, sponsored a statewide chemical disposal for all public schools. It was salvation for my disposal problems. The state hired a private contractor and paid all costs once we got the chemicals to a central collection site ( had one day DOT permits for the transport). JOHN C. HAWKINS ACORN HIGH SCHOOL-AALPS 143 POLK 96 MENA, AR 71953 HAWKINSJ@ACORN.DMSC.K12.AR.US ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:06:49 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >About 6 years ago my state, Arkansas, sponsored a >statewide chemical disposal for all public schools. It >was salvation for my disposal problems. The state hired >a private contractor and paid all costs once we got the >chemicals to a central collection site ( had one day >DOT permits for the transport). > This kind of system would solve many of the chemical storage problems in the public school systems. It's hard to say that the teachers are at fault when administrators refuse to pay for storage equipment or disposal methods that are needed to clean up the labs. Many high school labs have chemicals that are very old (>25 years!) and don't have the resources to get rid of them. Chemicals in high school labs were often inherited from universities and industries wanting to "clear out their excess stock". Julie O'Brien Chemist PCR, Inc. PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 ext. 232 Fax 352-373-7503 afn35210@afn.org Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville PO Box 5951 Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:07:11 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Methanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right On!!!! AS an industrial chemist, I didn't want to argue; glad to see another educator agrees with me. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Janeen LaPierre To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Monday, December 14, 1998 15:13 Subject: Re: Methanol >Quite frankly, I am appalled that anyone could take such a cavalier attitude to the safety of my children. Maybe more of us need to be involved in K-12 education. Instructing anyone, regardless of age, in a safe manner is a moral obligation for every educator. It is my opinion that the instructor that handed that child a methanol cannon and walked away, was criminally negligent in his duties as a physics instructor. > >In this day of cuts to school budgets, ever growing student to teacher ratios, and declining performance on standardized tests nation wide, I think a return to basic instruction techniques may be a more prudent approach to education. The methanol cannon may have its place in an advanced standing or honors level class where students are fewer and have had more laboratory experience. I do not agree with the attitude that this type of shock tactics teaching benefits a child's educational experience. I'm betting that the kids who witnessed the tragedy that sparked(pardon the pun) this whole discussion, are probably not beating down the doors of the science faculty trying to plan a career in the sciences. I'll bet most will never want to take part in risky lab activities again. I'd even bet that most are turned off to science altogether. > >What can we do to make sure our schools are a safe place for our children to learn and be amazed by science? I propose that we get involved with our own school systems. The more we know about what is going on in the classrooms and labs the less likely this type of tragedy will occur. I have spent the last six years working diligently to make college labs safer for students and faculty alike. I guess its time to turn my attention to my community to make sure my children are never placed needlessly in harms way. > > >***************** >Janeen Lapierre, CHO >College of Osteopathic Medicine >University of New England >11 Hills Beach Road >Biddeford, ME 04005 > >E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU >Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 >Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. > >>>> Hal Grunenwald - 12/12/98 1:11 AM >>> >In a message dated 98-12-08 18:22:25 EST, you write: > ><< Therefore, arguing that the experiment can be done safely if all the >proper procedures are followed is pointless when there are no significant >benefits. I think it was Jim Kaufman who pointed out early on that it is the >worst case scenario that must be considered, and experience has shown in this >case the worst is pretty bad. > I think it somewhat indefensible for safety officers to support such a >position. Such demonstrations are better left to those professionals >conducting public fireworks displays. > John Juhala > Forensic Science Division > Michigan State Police > >> >It is probabbly a good thing that you are not in k-12 Ed. > >PEOPLE, GET A LIFE!!! >All of the talk of toxicity -, if there is any kind of breeze at all the >students don't even get a whiff!!! when properly done about 6-8 ml of >methanol, ethanol or naptha are used. This demo has been done thousands of >times by thousands of classes across the US, Canada and Europe and with one >report of an accident (yes I know people got hurt) you sit on your ivory lab >bench and preach. I've been there! I've done it correctly and safely and IT >HELPS KIDS LEARN!! MUCH OF THIS IS MOTIVATIONAL. It is a memorable experience >from which students can gather real data about real movement in the real world >and those memories help students remember important concepts. > >SOMEBODY PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE ME FROM THIS MADHOUSE!!! > >Harold J. Grunenwald >Instructional Technology Coordinator >Former: >Safety Officer >Science Chair >Bio Teacher >Environmental Sci teacher >Chem Teacher and always >A PHYSICS TEACHER > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:16:52 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: JOHN HAWKINS To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Monday, December 14, 1998 16:09 Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today I don't have a witty signature line. Don't need one, nobody pays attention to my opinion anyway. This group will pay attention to your opinions. You may not like it sometimes, but they will pay attention and respond. Bob "Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 814-238-1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:22:44 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Gonzalez, Lisa" Subject: Re: Methanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I think it was Jim who said that this is an unfortunate event due to the increasing number of students, and as professionals maybe there is something we can do to increase awareness. I agree with you both. Unfortunately all of the emailing will not resolve the problem. The town I live in offers to all high school students & their parents time for the parents (who are professionals in their field of expertise) to give seminars to students. Some parents (or non-parent like myself) offer to assist students with studies in an area of interest. The teaching profession is a great challenge, and my hat goes off to all teachers. Let's help them if we can, and give them the knowledge so that interesting & useful experiments can be conducted as safely as possible. Lisa A. Gonzalez, NRCC-CHO -----Original Message----- From: Janeen LaPierre [SMTP:JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU] Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 9:46 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Methanol Quite frankly, I am appalled that anyone could take such a cavalier attitude to the safety of my children. Maybe more of us need to be involved in K-12 education. Instructing anyone, regardless of age, in a safe manner is a moral obligation for every educator. It is my opinion that the instructor that handed that child a methanol cannon and walked away, was criminally negligent in his duties as a physics instructor. In this day of cuts to school budgets, ever growing student to teacher ratios, and declining performance on standardized tests nation wide, I think a return to basic instruction techniques may be a more prudent approach to education. The methanol cannon may have its place in an advanced standing or honors level class where students are fewer and have had more laboratory experience. I do not agree with the attitude that this type of shock tactics teaching benefits a child's educational experience. I'm betting that the kids who witnessed the tragedy that sparked(pardon the pun) this whole discussion, are probably not beating down the doors of the science faculty trying to plan a career in the sciences. I'll bet most will never want to take part in risky lab activities again. I'd even bet that most are turned off to science altogether. What can we do to make sure our schools are a safe place for our children to learn and be amazed by science? I propose that we get involved with our own school systems. The more we know about what is going on in the classrooms and labs the less likely this type of tragedy will occur. I have spent the last six years working diligently to make college labs safer for students and faculty alike. I guess its time to turn my attention to my community to make sure my children are never placed needlessly in harms way. ***************** Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. >>> Hal Grunenwald - 12/12/98 1:11 AM >>> In a message dated 98-12-08 18:22:25 EST, you write: << Therefore, arguing that the experiment can be done safely if all the proper procedures are followed is pointless when there are no significant benefits. I think it was Jim Kaufman who pointed out early on that it is the worst case scenario that must be considered, and experience has shown in this case the worst is pretty bad. I think it somewhat indefensible for safety officers to support such a position. Such demonstrations are better left to those professionals conducting public fireworks displays. John Juhala Forensic Science Division Michigan State Police >> It is probabbly a good thing that you are not in k-12 Ed. PEOPLE, GET A LIFE!!! All of the talk of toxicity -, if there is any kind of breeze at all the students don't even get a whiff!!! when properly done about 6-8 ml of methanol, ethanol or naptha are used. This demo has been done thousands of times by thousands of classes across the US, Canada and Europe and with one report of an accident (yes I know people got hurt) you sit on your ivory lab bench and preach. I've been there! I've done it correctly and safely and IT HELPS KIDS LEARN!! MUCH OF THIS IS MOTIVATIONAL. It is a memorable experience from which students can gather real data about real movement in the real world and those memories help students remember important concepts. SOMEBODY PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE ME FROM THIS MADHOUSE!!! Harold J. Grunenwald Instructional Technology Coordinator Former: Safety Officer Science Chair Bio Teacher Environmental Sci teacher Chem Teacher and always A PHYSICS TEACHER ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:18:03 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: need exhaustive list of known repro toxins Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >I want to know exactly which chemicals require a "designated area" under >the Lab Standard. The three criteria are >"select carcinogens" - well explained, lists straightforward >reproductive toxins - defined but no further guidance >substances which have a high degree of acute toxicity - no guidance >(and note that it's not just "highly toxic" but high ACUTE toxicity.) >Thanks I asked this question of our colleagues last March. There apparently are no specific lists to point to for reproductive toxins and acutely toxic materials, as there are with the carcinogens. I use all the sources I run across to do comparisons with our inventory. Below I've listed some websites I've used. After the list of websites, I've copied and pasted the responses from the list I received last March. No, I'll do that in another memo; I'm getting server error messages, and want to get this off before the crash! Best of luck - this is one of my current and on-going projects also. Teresa Robertson http://www.toxicology.org http://www.hhmi.org/science/labsafe/lcss/tlisting.htm http://tera.org (Toxicology Excellence for Risk Assessment) http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/~soilweb/msds.htm http://www.ilpi.com/msds/index.chtml http://www.sigma.sial.com/sigma/proddata/dataindx.htm http://atsdr1.atsdr.cdc.gov:8080/toxfaq.html http://www.uwsa.edu/oslp/ehs/msds.htm http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcs/ipcs0000.html http://info.cas.org http://www.vwrsp.com http://www.mallchem.com/cgi-bin/pasi.pl?Begin http://www.blockenviron.com/links.htm http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov http://www.med.ed.ac.uk/HEW/chemical/toxicol.html http://www.pageplus.com/~lwberry/lD50.html http://mail.odsnet.com/TRIFacts Chocolate Toxicity in Dogs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:31:05 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: need exhaustive list of known repro toxins Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Teresa_Robertson@firstclass1.csubak.edu,.internet writes: >Chocolate Toxicity in Dogs Sorry to anyone intrigued by this one, lost the address in the original post - http://www.netpet.com/articles/choc.tox.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:53:19 +1300 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Peter Robinson Subject: Re: Methanol - Life should NOT be boring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BE2829.E49CBD00" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2829.E49CBD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kia Ora All I have followed this thread with interest, and have noticed some common = points. As someone with 15 years experience in teaching at tertiary = level, and also a high interest in safety, I would like to make a couple = of comments. Safety Whatever we do, it must be carried out in the safest possible manner = with minimal balanced risk assessment. Some people are advocating = "never do the methanol cannon experiment". Why not? It has a huge = attention-getting impact, and it is well proven that people learn much = more by seeing than listening. Having said that, it is over to the person doing the demonstration to = ensure that it is carried out in the safest possible way. Educational impact It is over to educators to make instruction as interesting as possible. = We all know that sitting listening to someone talk for 45 minutes or so = can be extremely boring. Any demonstration, and ESPECIALLY if it = involves noise and surprise, will break the monotony and stimulate the = students. The trick is to make the perceived danger appear much greater than the = actual (which should, of course, be nil). Someone has already mentioned = pretending it didn't work, then WOW. I'm betting that the kids who witnessed the tragedy that sparked(pardon = the pun) this whole discussion, are probably not beating down the doors = of the science faculty trying to plan a career in the sciences. I'll = bet most will never want to take part in risky lab activities again. = I'd even bet that most are turned off to science altogether. Without diminishing the importance of the incident which caused this = discussion to start, I would beg to differ on the last sentence above. = Many of the students in the class may not have been particularly = interested in science in the first place. Others may well have been = stimulated by this incident, either to an interest in science, or = medicine, or law for that matter. I would bet that all the people in the room will remember the = consequences of what happened, though possible not the cause. Of all = low. I think it was Jim Kaufman who pointed out early on that it is the worst case scenario that must be considered, and experience has shown in = this case the worst is pretty bad. So travel by car is also to be banned. The worst case scenario is being = badly maimed in an accident, and spending the rest of your life as a = tetraplegic (I consider this worse than death?) I think it somewhat indefensible for safety officers to support such a position.=20 Safety officers should HELP ensure things are done safely, but unless = they are trained in teaching, they should leave the educational maters = to the teachers. Such demonstrations are better left to those professionals conducting public fireworks displays. John Juhala Forensic Science Division Michigan State Police >> It is probabbly a good thing that you are not in k-12 Ed. PEOPLE, GET A LIFE!!! All of the talk of toxicity -, if there is any kind of breeze at all the students don't even get a whiff!!! when properly done about 6-8 ml of methanol, ethanol or naptha are used. This demo has been done thousands = of times by thousands of classes across the US, Canada and Europe and with = one report of an accident (yes I know people got hurt) you sit on your ivory = lab bench and preach. I've been there! I've done it correctly and safely and = IT HELPS KIDS LEARN!! MUCH OF THIS IS MOTIVATIONAL.=20 I agree 100% - Peter It is a memorable experience from which students can gather real data about real movement in the real = world and those memories help students remember important concepts. SOMEBODY PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE ME FROM THIS MADHOUSE!!! Harold J. Grunenwald Instructional Technology Coordinator Former: Safety Officer Science Chair Bio Teacher Environmental Sci teacher Chem Teacher and always A PHYSICS TEACHER ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:54:26 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Toxin Discussion - Last March Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============================================_=_MIME-Boundary_=_" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a MIME multipart message. --===============================================_=_MIME-Boundary_=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-ID: The following are the discussion (postings copied and pasted together) from last March pertaining to reproductive and acute toxins. Teresa In the "Lab Standard" (29 CFR Part 1910 Occupational Exposures to Hazardous Chemicals in Laboratories), a "Designated Area" is defined as "an area which may be used for work with "select carcinogens", reproductive toxins, or substances which have a high degree of acute toxicity. A designated area may be the entire laboratory, an area of a laboratory hood, or a device such as a laboratory hood." So, how does the standard define select carcinogens, reproductive toxins, and acute toxins? The standard gives specific references for determining which items in our inventories are to be handled as carcinogens, i.e. listed by IARC (group 1, 2A, or 2B), the most recent edition of the Annual Report on Carcinogens by the NTP, or they are regulated by OSHA. Even though it takes a great deal of studying to become intimately acquainted with these carcinogen lists, at least they have been specified. If this is the case with the reproductive and acute toxins, I have been unable to find reference to these lists. In Appendix A, part E, General Procedures for Working With Chemicals, there are some examples, but these are only examples, not 'complete listings'. The standard defines "reproductive toxins" as "chemicals which affect the reproductive capabilities including chromosomal damage (mutations) and effects on fetuses (teratogenesis)." I found one list of mutagens on the WWW that says it was generated using "Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials" by Sax and Irving, which based on their reference, sounded like it would be a good list, but in going over the list, I would find it truly shocking if a designated area would be considered a necessity for some items, and therefore must have doubt about other items on this list. As for acute toxins, I have not found a definition in the Lab Standard. Since I work for the State of California in a state building, my chemical storage is regulated by the State Fire Marshall. One of the criteria the fire code says we can use for determining toxicity can be found on more MSDS than any other, LD 50, oral rat. For purposes of inventory limits, toxic is defined as an LD 50 of 51-500 mg/kg and highly toxic as 50 mg/kg or less. As for purposes of the chemical hygiene plan, we also take note of when the manufacturer's label or MSDS describes the material as toxic. Does anyone know of any WWW lists of LD 50 data (looking up the data on every MSDS is quite-time consuming) ? Does anyone know of any WWW lists of mutagens and/or teratogens ? I imagine to many of you this may seem apparent, but for those of you like me, to which it was not, I'd like to share an inventory control tip from my friends at California State University, Sacramento recently passes along to me --- make your primary data base sort the CAS number. As my friends pointed out, one of the advantages is that it can prevent ordering something you already have in stock, but have it inventoried another another name. I now find it to be of great use when comparing my inventory to the carcinogen (and other) lists. Teresa R. Robertson, CCHO California State University, Bakersfield P.S. Thank you very much to James Kaufman for the "Kinder, Gentler Laboratory Standard" Enclosed (attached) is a procedure use at GE Corporate R&D for the handling of chemicals with significant health risks. It includes a table of chemical which we feel meet OSHA's carcinogenicity criteria, and a listing of chemical which have reproductive health effect. The source of the lists is at the end of the table. There is also a discussion of chemicals with significant health effects at the beginning of the text. The procedure is specific to our needs and therefore need to be reviewed and modified for your purpose. This is a long document, and hopefully it will survive the transmission process. Reinhard Sidor One of the best sources of information on LD 50s, reproductive toxins, carcinogens, and acute toxins is the Registry of Toxic Effects of Chemical Substances (RTECS). Unfortunately this is not free. I have found information on the internet for ordering and/or subscribing to RTECS. I cannot remember if there are lists of reproductive toxins or acute toxins, but for a chemical you can find all of the test data (LD 50s, etc.) With regards to a definition of acute toxins, see the paragraph following the Hazardous chemical paragraph under definitions in the lab standard (1910.1450) - Appendices A and B of the Hazard Communication Standard (29 CFR 1910.1200) provide further guidance in defining the scope of health hazards and determining whether or not a chemical is to be considered hazardous for the purposes of the lab standard also. These definitions of toxic and highly toxic relate to the LD 50s and LC 50s. Also, you mentioned the fire code. We are under jurisdiction of the Uniform Building Code (UBC), enforced by the Fire Marshall. The UBC uses the OSHA Hazard Communication definition of acute toxins (toxic and highly toxic) also. I am not that familiar with the Uniform Fire Code (UFC) but I think it is equivalent to the UBC. My understanding is that different parts of the country operate under either the UBC or the UFC. But don't quote me on this one. We have adopted Prudent Practices definition of acutely toxic chemicals., 1995 addition, page 42, table 3.1 in our CHP. Hazard Level Toxicity Level Oral LD50 (Rats, per kg) Skin Contact LD50 (Rabbits, per kg) Inhalation LC50 (Rats, ppm for 1 h) Inhalation LC50 (Rats, mg/m3 for 1 h) Highly toxic <50 mg <200 mg <200 <2,000 Import this into a word processor and it might look right. We are relying on researchers to identify all particularly hazardous substances (PHS) that are in their lab. We anticipate this to be a two year process. This year we are collecting an electronic inventory so we may have a searchable inventory of the whole campus. Next year we will ask them to identify all PHS. With regards to definition of acute toxins, use the Appendices A and B of the Hazard Communications Standard (29 CFR 1910.1200) for defining the scope of health hazards and determining whether or not a chemical is to be considered hazardous for the lab standard also. ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Chemical Safety Specialist, CCHO Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University mmiller@andrew.cmu.edu Madelyn--As a starting point, I use the Acutely Toxic Chemicals list based on the OSHA Process Safety Standard, 29 CFR 1910.119 App A. See our Web site for an html version of this table: http://www.ehs.cornell.edu/lrs/acute_toxins.html Good luck with your project. Tom ********************************************************** Tom Shelley, Chemical Hygiene Officer, Cornell University, Department of Environmental Health and Safety, 125 Humphreys Service Building, Ithaca, NY 14853. (607) 255-4288 tjs1@cornell.edu @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ DISCLAIMER @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ The comments and views expressed in this communication are strictly my own and are not to be construed to officially represent those of my peers, supervisors or Cornell University. --===============================================_=_MIME-Boundary_=_ Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="ARTICLE.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: x-uuencode Content-ID: Attachment Converted: "c:\winnet\eudora\linda\attach\ARTICLE.TXT" --===============================================_=_MIME-Boundary_=_-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:36:10 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Neal Langerman Subject: Repro Toxics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The best online list of reproductive toxins is the California Proposition 65 list. The URL is: http://www.oehha.org/prop65/ Go to the section on reproductive toxins. It is very comprehensive. Neal ************************************************************* NEAL LANGERMAN chemsaf@ix.netcom.com ADVANCED CHEMICAL SAFETY 8909 Complex Drive San Diego CA 92123-1418 619 874 5577 (phone) 619 874 8239 (FAX) 619 990 4908 (cellular) visit our homepage: http://www.chemical-safety.com ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:25:52 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Shower/Eyewash Drains Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-12-14 11:14:10 EST, you write: << -I have information that several years ago the Federal EPA excluded from regulation water discharged from an emergency safety shower or eyewash that went to the sanitary sewer. >> Tom - That's good news. Could you please post the citation to the list and make copies available to those who are interested? ... Jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:25:27 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Dr. Linda A. Swihart" Subject: A bit absurd - WAS repro toxins and high acute toxicity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" from HE >I would think that you could compare your current, in-use chemical >inventory to a recognized source like Patty's and/or Brethricks. I'm not >aware of a single source of information which will tell you everything you >want to know...it takes some leg-work, time and some good reference materials. from HG >Or...you can hire a good consultant....but that cost $$$$ from MH >The term, "reproductive toxins" is purposely vague to not only include >mutagens, teratogens and any other substances or processes that may damage >genetic material or fetuses but to allow for inclusion of as yet undefined >possible epigenetic phenomena. Yes, yes, of course, and I know this.... "Purposely vague" is something I'm ashamed of OSHA (but especially EPA) for being. And I just think it's a bit absurd that there appears to be an expectation on the part of OSHA that someone will come up with something truly meaningful with so little guidance. Is it all just based on some "try as hard as you can even though we give crap for guidelines and things will be better than they used to be" sort of ideal? (yes.) The "select carcinogens" part can be coped with because at least there are distinct references for a person to grind away at keeping track of. But for the rest, the reproductive toxins and the "substances of high acute toxicity," are we supposed to constantly monitor every published MSDS, every new issue of "Toxicology" every finding of every agency and publication that purports have insight? Is there a list of such authorities? Patty and Bretherick are great, although can you imagine having the time to go through them line by line every new edition? And who among these uses that expression "high acute toxicity?" What is HIGH? Gimme a number please. What do *you* use!? Do you use some finite list of chemicals and update it with some regularity? Or do you simply punt like most academic institutions and say "it's the responsibility of the researchers?" For what chemicals do you require designated areas?? I would like to update our list AGAIN (it's on the web, if you're interested write me for the URL) and I'd like to offer a rationale for why I included and excluded particular things. 'Scuse me for getting frustrated. I appreciate all of the input! Linda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 02:38:04 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: A bit absurd - WAS repro toxins and high acute toxicity In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981214212524.0180b6d8@postoffice.purdue.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:25 PM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >from HE >>I would think that you could compare your current, in-use chemical >>inventory to a recognized source like Patty's and/or Brethricks. I'm not >>aware of a single source of information which will tell you everything you >>want to know...it takes some leg-work, time and some good reference >materials. > > >from MH >>The term, "reproductive toxins" is purposely vague to not only include >>mutagens, teratogens and any other substances or processes that may damage >>genetic material or fetuses but to allow for inclusion of as yet undefined >>possible epigenetic phenomena. > > >Yes, yes, of course, and I know this.... "Purposely vague" is something I'm >ashamed of OSHA (but especially EPA) for being. There is an advantage to vague. Use your best judgement, and snow the inspector with your superior reasoning. If there is a LIST, and you miss one item, you are toast. > >And I just think it's a bit absurd that there appears to be an expectation >on the part of OSHA that someone will come up with something truly >meaningful with so little guidance. Is it all just based on some "try as >hard as you can even though we give crap for guidelines and things will be >better than they used to be" sort of ideal? (yes.) Absolutely > >The "select carcinogens" part can be coped with because at least there are >distinct references for a person to grind away at keeping track of. But >for the rest, the reproductive toxins and the "substances of high acute >toxicity," are we supposed to constantly monitor every published MSDS, >every new issue of "Toxicology" every finding of every agency and >publication that purports have insight? Is there a list of such >authorities? Patty and Bretherick are great, although can you imagine >having the time to go through them line by line every new edition? > >And who among these uses that expression "high acute toxicity?" What is >HIGH? Gimme a number please. I hate numbers. Say the LD50 is 50mg/kg. Then with numbers people and especially the inspectors will pass if something is 49, and you are again toast if it is 51. Does that make any sense?? If there is an absolute number I would chafe at it--why this and not that, and so forth. >What do *you* use!? Do you use some finite list of chemicals and update it >with some regularity? Or do you simply punt like most academic >institutions and say "it's the responsibility of the researchers?" I would punt. > >For what chemicals do you require designated areas?? I would like to >update our list AGAIN (it's on the web, if you're interested write me for >the URL) and I'd like to offer a rationale for why I included and excluded >particular things. > >'Scuse me for getting frustrated. I appreciate all of the input! > >Linda > Mary Ann Mary Ann Solstad, CIH 4 A's of Safety SOLSTAD Health & Safety Evaluations Attitude 16 Pequot Rd, Marblehead, MA 01945 Awareness 781-631-4748 tel, 781-631-1832 FAX Automatic Application Authority DivCHAS Chair, ACS msolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:13:01 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mark Gulden Subject: Read: Methanol - Life should NOT be boring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MimeMultipartBoundary" --MimeMultipartBoundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --MimeMultipartBoundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:34:15 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: A bit absurd - WAS repro toxins and high acute toxicity Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >>And who among these uses that expression "high acute toxicity?" What >is >>HIGH? Gimme a number please. >I hate numbers. Say the LD50 is 50mg/kg. Then with numbers people and >especially the inspectors will pass if something is 49, and you are >again >toast if it is 51. Does that make any sense?? I do like the absolute definitions and the specific lists, and still agree the above scenario does not make sense. We isolate everything with an LD50 less than or equal to 50 mg/kg/day oral rat, as well as anything we feel there is just cause to do so, and a "51+" would be included due to that LD50 number being an average that would be better reported as a range rather than an individual numeral. Although we rarely find the data, we are allowed (as defined by the fire code) two other methods of defining toxicity, are you? We can use LC50 rat or LD50 dermal rabbit. > (it's on the web, if you're interested write me for >>the URL) Please post to the list. Thanks, Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:55:05 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: CSU CHO's - Where Are You? Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I received an e-mail letter-of-introduction this morning from the new CHO at Cal State Sacramento, Craig Burnett. He asked me if I have a list of phone numbers and e-mail addresses for the CSU CHOs. Craig's question made me wonder if all the CSU CHOs know about this list. If you are a CSU CHO, please reply to this message (directly to me) and I will see if we are all accounted for. And, are you going to the seminar at CSU Long Beach Jan. 8th? Thanks, Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:31:25 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Michael Ahler Subject: hives In-Reply-To: <000901be2765$582a4d20$0100007f@BBURNS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="hives" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob ( and everybody else), I have only a couple of anecdotes to help shed light on your experience with hives. My conclusion from these and other stories I have heard is that skin effects can be very substance specific and very individual specific at the same time. Several years ago I was working as an Instructional Support Technician for the Chemistry Department here and had a few student employees to help me (us). I had one student develop a skin rash on her hands every time she worked with solutions containing ferrous ammonium sulfate + ferric ammonium sulfate + sulfuric acid ( ca. 0.2 M). These were redox unknowns for permanganate titrations. She always wore rubber gloves and always avoided ( as far as we could tell) direct skin contact with the materials. She was the only student in a span of about 20 years to develop a sensitivity to this mixture and this was the only mixture I am aware of that so affected this student. A couple of years later a similar situation sprang up with a different student working with benzoic acid. I also once saw a student in a biochemistry lab come very close to anaphylactic shock from the fumes of diethyl ether being used for a fat extraction experiment. The other materials present were breakfast cereal and potato chips (analytical samples). The student reported having a visceral and very unpleasant reaction to the ether fumes - identified them as the source of his difficulty. These things can be very specific and a bit like being hit by a metor (meteoroid?). Your meteor happens to be made of DIPM. Sorry. I suggest you find another substance to fill the job the DIPN was doing, or appoint a proxy. So far I have not run into anything at work that does these things to me, although I'm sure they are out there. I also tend to wear gloves and use hoods a lot. Thank you. Michael Ahler, CHO Risk Management Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, California ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:15:29 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Sam Hurlbut Subject: Re: hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bob, It almost sound like your technician may have been sensitive to the latex in the gloves. Here at the Plutonium Finishing Plant we have had many instances of latex sensitivity. I have to add that I know of no one developing an allergy to plutonium, however. Sam > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Ahler > [SMTP:Ahler_Michael_D/cpslo_employee1@POLYMAIL.CPUNIX.CALPOLY.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 11:31 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: hives > > Bob ( and everybody else), > I have only a couple of anecdotes to help shed light on your > experience > with hives. My conclusion from these and other stories I have heard > is > that skin effects can be very substance specific and very individual > specific at the same time. > > Several years ago I was working as an Instructional Support Technician > for the Chemistry Department here and had a few student employees to > help me (us). I had one student develop a skin rash on her hands > every > time she worked with solutions containing ferrous ammonium sulfate + > ferric ammonium sulfate + sulfuric acid ( ca. 0.2 M). These were redox > unknowns for permanganate titrations. She always wore rubber gloves > and > always avoided ( as far as we could tell) direct skin contact with the > materials. She was the only student in a span of about 20 years to > develop a sensitivity to this mixture and this was the only mixture I > am > aware of that so affected this student. > A couple of years later a similar situation sprang up with a different > student working with benzoic acid. > I also once saw a student in a biochemistry lab come very close to > anaphylactic shock from the fumes of diethyl ether being used for a > fat > extraction experiment. The other materials present were breakfast > cereal and potato chips (analytical samples). The student reported > having a visceral and very unpleasant reaction to the ether fumes - > identified them as the source of his difficulty. > > These things can be very specific and a bit like being hit by a metor > (meteoroid?). Your meteor happens to be made of DIPM. Sorry. > I suggest you find another substance to fill the job the DIPN was > doing, > or appoint a proxy. > > So far I have not run into anything at work that does these things to > me, although I'm sure they are out there. I also tend to wear gloves > and use hoods a lot. > > Thank you. > > Michael Ahler, CHO > Risk Management > Cal Poly > San Luis Obispo, California ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:34:00 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Being a biochemist who suffers from respiratiory allergies, I have done some investigation into the nature of allergies. Hives is one type of allergic reaction (I can't remember if it is type I or type II). True allergic reactions require a previous exposure to the allergen. Allergens must be chemicals of a certain molecular size for the body to actually mount an immune response. I believe the DIPM is at the low end of the minimum size required. However, it is also possible to have an allergic reaction to other, similar compounds. And to cross sensitize. The allergic reaction is really only specific to a small portion of the compound, but if that same portion shows up in another chemical, you may have an allergic reaction without direct exposure to that *particular* chemical. This would make it possible (although unlikely) for one to have a reaction to something as small as diethyl ether. Sound confusing? It is. :> Tammy Tayman ---------- From: Michael Ahler To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: hives Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 2:31PM Bob ( and everybody else), I have only a couple of anecdotes to help shed light on your experience with hives. My conclusion from these and other stories I have heard is that skin effects can be very substance specific and very individual specific at the same time. Several years ago I was working as an Instructional Support Technician for the Chemistry Department here and had a few student employees to help me (us). I had one student develop a skin rash on her hands every time she worked with solutions containing ferrous ammonium sulfate + ferric ammonium sulfate + sulfuric acid ( ca. 0.2 M). These were redox unknowns for permanganate titrations. She always wore rubber gloves and always avoided ( as far as we could tell) direct skin contact with the materials. She was the only student in a span of about 20 years to develop a sensitivity to this mixture and this was the only mixture I am aware of that so affected this student. A couple of years later a similar situation sprang up with a different student working with benzoic acid. I also once saw a student in a biochemistry lab come very close to anaphylactic shock from the fumes of diethyl ether being used for a fat extraction experiment. The other materials present were breakfast cereal and potato chips (analytical samples). The student reported having a visceral and very unpleasant reaction to the ether fumes - identified them as the source of his difficulty. These things can be very specific and a bit like being hit by a metor (meteoroid?). Your meteor happens to be made of DIPM. Sorry. I suggest you find another substance to fill the job the DIPN was doing, or appoint a proxy. So far I have not run into anything at work that does these things to me, although I'm sure they are out there. I also tend to wear gloves and use hoods a lot. Thank you. Michael Ahler, CHO Risk Management Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, California ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:40:13 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Spare Subject: Re: CSU CHO's - Where Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not a CSU CHO, however, I am a CHO in So. Calif. - can you please post any details you have on this seminar at CSULB on 1/8. Nick Spare Pilot Chemical Co Santa Fe Springs, CA -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 11:00 AM Subject: CSU CHO's - Where Are You? >I received an e-mail letter-of-introduction this morning from the new >CHO at Cal State Sacramento, Craig Burnett. He asked me if I have a >list of phone numbers and e-mail addresses for the CSU CHOs. > >Craig's question made me wonder if all the CSU CHOs know about this >list. If you are a CSU CHO, please reply to this message (directly to >me) and I will see if we are all accounted for. And, are you going to >the seminar at CSU Long Beach Jan. 8th? > >Thanks, Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:09:10 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: CSU CHO's - Where Are You? Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >I'm not a CSU CHO, however, I am a CHO in So. Calif. - can you please >post >any details you have on this seminar at CSULB on 1/8. >Nick Spare >Pilot Chemical Co >Santa Fe Springs, CA FRIDAY, JANUARY 8, 1999 FROM 9:00 am TO 4:00 pm IN PETERSON HALL 1 ROOM 141 .......... We will be presenting another workshop in an annual series tailored to address the needs of faculty, technical staff, academic administrators, and student workers who have responsibilities for handling and using chemicals, biological agents, lab equipment and other hazardous items in an academic setting. The presentations by selected specialists are designed to be a source of current information and training in the area of academic laboratory safety and regulatory compliance. The workshop topics will be of interest to individuals with both management and direct, hands-on laboratory responsibilities. This workshop will feature sessions by a CAL/OSHA presenter who will focus on the most recent changes in regulations and conditions which impact academic institutions. Presentations on personal protective equipment and matters pertaining to lab safety inspections. To reserve space for any interested individual and to ensure receipt of class materials, please complete and mail the attached pre-enrollment form which must be received by January 4, 1999. A $95.00 non-refundable payment must accompany the application. The fee for the course includes handouts, lunch, and parking. Print, detach, and send the following. ======================================================================= === Mail to: Dr. Roger D Bauer, College of Natural Sciences & Math SAS Center, California State University Long Beach, 1250 Bellflower Blvd, Long Beach, Ca 90840 Name: ____________________________________________________ Position: __________________________________________________ Institution: _________________________________________________ Mailing Address: __________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________ Telephone: ______________________ Email: ____________________ Enclosed is my check in the amount of $95.00 payable to California State University Long Beach Foundation. A 10% discount will be offered to institutions sending five or more participants. Call Cheryl Muilenburg at 562/985-8394 for additional information, parking arrangements (parking lot 7 on upper campus, off 7th street), or to register by phone. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:02:20 +1300 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Peter Robinson Subject: Re: hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BE28EB.EFAD7320" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE28EB.EFAD7320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- From: Sam Hurlbut Sent: Wednesday, 16 December 1998 10:15 am To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: hives Bob, It almost sound like your technician may have been sensitive to the latex in the gloves. Here at the Plutonium Finishing Plant we have had many instances of latex sensitivity. I have to add that I know of no one developing an allergy to plutonium, however. They die first, maybe? Peter Sam > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Ahler > [SMTP:Ahler_Michael_D/cpslo_employee1@POLYMAIL.CPUNIX.CALPOLY.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 11:31 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: hives > > Bob ( and everybody else), > I have only a couple of anecdotes to help shed light on your > experience > with hives. My conclusion from these and other stories I have heard > is > that skin effects can be very substance specific and very individual > specific at the same time. > > Several years ago I was working as an Instructional Support Technician > for the Chemistry Department here and had a few student employees to > help me (us). I had one student develop a skin rash on her hands > every > time she worked with solutions containing ferrous ammonium sulfate + > ferric ammonium sulfate + sulfuric acid ( ca. 0.2 M). These were redox > unknowns for permanganate titrations. She always wore rubber gloves > and > always avoided ( as far as we could tell) direct skin contact with the > materials. She was the only student in a span of about 20 years to > develop a sensitivity to this mixture and this was the only mixture I > am > aware of that so affected this student. > A couple of years later a similar situation sprang up with a different > student working with benzoic acid. > I also once saw a student in a biochemistry lab come very close to > anaphylactic shock from the fumes of diethyl ether being used for a > fat > extraction experiment. The other materials present were breakfast > cereal and potato chips (analytical samples). The student reported > having a visceral and very unpleasant reaction to the ether fumes - > identified them as the source of his difficulty. > > These things can be very specific and a bit like being hit by a metor > (meteoroid?). Your meteor happens to be made of DIPM. Sorry. > I suggest you find another substance to fill the job the DIPN was > doing, > or appoint a proxy. > > So far I have not run into anything at work that does these things to > me, although I'm sure they are out there. I also tend to wear gloves > and use hoods a lot. > > Thank you. > > Michael Ahler, CHO > Risk Management > Cal Poly > San Luis Obispo, California ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:32:04 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Elise Windus Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have often observed in my years of high school teaching that people with a science education degree do not get the training of how to handle chemical wastes. The science ed people have a good general understanding of science. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:04:47 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Methanol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-12-14 17:26:53 EST, you write: << The teaching profession is a great challenge, and my hat goes off to all teachers. Let's help them if we can, and give them the knowledge so that interesting & useful experiments can be conducted as safely as possible. Lisa A. Gonzalez, NRCC-CHO >> I really like Lisa's suggestion about folks in the community sharing information with the schools. One of the ways that NACHO members can help is by offering to provide in- service training programs for their community's science teachers. The Lab Safety Workshop will be happy to provide some science safety materials (our guidelines, etc.) as handouts for such presentations. ... Jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, President The Laboratory Safety Workshop 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 LabSafe@aol.com Safety in Science Education The Laboratory Safety Workshop is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, seminar schedule, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. Visit our growing web site at www:LABSAFETY.ORG ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:45:39 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Wanda Clarke Subject: Re: Methanol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BE28C8.13E68FC0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE28C8.13E68FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear CHO group, As one who works with secondary science teachers in a public school = setting, I truely understand the issues brought forward regarding = chemical safety in the classroom. For the last five years we have been = working with many of our new and seasoned teachers regarding laboratory = safety and chemical storage. Often times with great resistence. The = feelings from teachers is that they have used the chemicals for years, = and have had no problems, so what is the big deal? On top of that, = we're telling them that the MSDS contains information regarding risks = that we need to consider for future purchases, not to mention how we = store those chemicals. I still fight with the teacher who wants to = store chemicals under their sinks or in their cabinets in alphabetical = order.=20 It would be wonderful to have the local universities, and or companies = willing to work with our teachers on training workshops. I think if = they hear it from those that they respect, instead of the = "administration" they would be more apt to follow the guidelines of = safety. Anyone in the area of Omaha, NE (or not) who would want to = share some ideas in regards to safety, should contact me about future = collaborations. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:10:29 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: George McKelvy Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today In-Reply-To: <6a522b51.367729b4@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I cannot disagree with Elise at all and I am finishing my third degree in Science Education. I can also tell you this: in 23 years of teaching middle/high school, 2 years small college, and 3 years in research institute, very few (if any) degreed persons "get training" on how to handle chemical wastes. If it is "learned" at all, it is by asking and doing; not by training. Maybe it's about time colleges and universities required an ongoing course in all aspects of safety for all their science majors and minors. That will be my goal if and when I get to work tertiary curricula post-doc. Wish me luck. At 10:32 PM 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >I have often observed in my years of high school teaching that people with a >science education degree do not get the training of how to handle chemical >wastes. > >The science ed people have a good general understanding of science. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:24:19 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Janeen LaPierre Subject: Re: Methanol Comments: To: Labsafe@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim. Send that outline my way. I can't complain if I'm not willing to help solve the problem. Janeen ***************** Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. >>> - 12/16/98 8:04 AM >>> In a message dated 98-12-14 17:26:53 EST, you write: << The teaching profession is a great challenge, and my hat goes off to all teachers. Let's help them if we can, and give them the knowledge so that interesting & useful experiments can be conducted as safely as possible. Lisa A. Gonzalez, NRCC-CHO >> I really like Lisa's suggestion about folks in the community sharing information with the schools. One of the ways that NACHO members can help is by offering to provide in- service training programs for their community's science teachers. The Lab Safety Workshop will be happy to provide some science safety materials (our guidelines, etc.) as handouts for such presentations. ... Jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, President The Laboratory Safety Workshop 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 LabSafe@aol.com Safety in Science Education The Laboratory Safety Workshop is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, seminar schedule, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. Visit our growing web site at www:LABSAFETY.ORG ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:48:08 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Dewey Williams Subject: Science Ed seminars on chemical handling and waste disposal-are there any? In-Reply-To: <6a522b51.367729b4@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >I have often observed in my years of high school teaching that people with a >science education degree do not get the training of how to handle chemical >wastes. > >The science ed people have a good general understanding of science. Are there any regular seminars or classes on chemical handling and/or waste disposal for K-12 science teachers? We do a number of seminars on campus for elementary and high school teachers, teaching teachers to teach chemistry. Would such a seminar be useful? Dewey Williams - Lab Manager mailto:williams@email.uncc.edu UNC-Charlotte Chemistry Dept. http://www.chem.uncc.edu "These are my ideas and no one else will claim them." "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:36:01 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Several discussions on this list serve have been addressing the same issues...where do we find the information about 1) risks, 2) disposal, 3) toxicology, 4) incompatibilities, 5) chemical storage, 6) any other laboratory safety information. As we have all found, legwork (by ourselves or through a consultant) is generally the only way to go. Knowing where on the internet to find info, what citations in the CFR are applicable, what books are available, the safety networks (like NACHO, CHAS, ASSE, and others) are all a major part of our jobs. Perhaps NACHO could host a web page with links, book lists (including ISBN's and where to find the books), and other information would be a good start. That would also allow members to provide a place for teachers, students, and other persons interested in safety to go for "one stop shopping." It won't solve all problems, but perhaps could provide some help. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: George McKelvy [SMTP:george.mckelvy@CHEMISTRY.GATECH.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 7:10 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today I cannot disagree with Elise at all and I am finishing my third degree in Science Education. I can also tell you this: in 23 years of teaching middle/high school, 2 years small college, and 3 years in research institute, very few (if any) degreed persons "get training" on how to handle chemical wastes. If it is "learned" at all, it is by asking and doing; not by training. Maybe it's about time colleges and universities required an ongoing course in all aspects of safety for all their science majors and minors. That will be my goal if and when I get to work tertiary curricula post-doc. Wish me luck. At 10:32 PM 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >I have often observed in my years of high school teaching that people with a >science education degree do not get the training of how to handle chemical >wastes. > >The science ed people have a good general understanding of science. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:36:55 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Methanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I would also like the information. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Janeen LaPierre [SMTP:JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 7:24 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Methanol Hi Jim. Send that outline my way. I can't complain if I'm not willing to help solve the problem. Janeen ***************** Janeen Lapierre, CHO College of Osteopathic Medicine University of New England 11 Hills Beach Road Biddeford, ME 04005 E-Mail: JLaPierre@MAILBOX.UNE.EDU Phone: (207) 283-0170 ext 2446 Opinions are mine and not those of UNE. >>> - 12/16/98 8:04 AM >>> In a message dated 98-12-14 17:26:53 EST, you write: << The teaching profession is a great challenge, and my hat goes off to all teachers. Let's help them if we can, and give them the knowledge so that interesting & useful experiments can be conducted as safely as possible. Lisa A. Gonzalez, NRCC-CHO >> I really like Lisa's suggestion about folks in the community sharing information with the schools. One of the ways that NACHO members can help is by offering to provide in- service training programs for their community's science teachers. The Lab Safety Workshop will be happy to provide some science safety materials (our guidelines, etc.) as handouts for such presentations. ... Jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, President The Laboratory Safety Workshop 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 LabSafe@aol.com Safety in Science Education The Laboratory Safety Workshop is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, seminar schedule, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. Visit our growing web site at www:LABSAFETY.ORG ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:51:15 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Barb Moore Subject: Re: Scary Story I heard Today In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Best Idea I seen on the listserve yet. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:01:32 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Spare Subject: Re: CSU CHO's - Where Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Teresa Thanks for the info Nick -----Original Message----- From: Teresa Robertson To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 3:17 PM Subject: Re: CSU CHO's - Where Are You? >LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >>I'm not a CSU CHO, however, I am a CHO in So. Calif. - can you please >>post >>any details you have on this seminar at CSULB on 1/8. >>Nick Spare >>Pilot Chemical Co >>Santa Fe Springs, CA > >FRIDAY, JANUARY 8, 1999 FROM 9:00 am TO 4:00 pm IN PETERSON HALL 1 ROOM >141 .......... > >We will be presenting another workshop in an annual series tailored to >address the needs of faculty, technical staff, academic administrators, >and student workers who have responsibilities for handling and using >chemicals, biological agents, lab equipment and other hazardous items >in an academic setting. > >The presentations by selected specialists are designed to be a source >of current information and training in the area of academic laboratory >safety and regulatory compliance. The workshop topics will be of >interest to individuals with both management and direct, hands-on >laboratory responsibilities. This workshop will feature sessions by a >CAL/OSHA presenter who will focus on the most recent changes in >regulations and conditions which impact academic institutions. >Presentations on personal protective equipment and matters pertaining >to lab safety inspections. > >To reserve space for any interested individual and to ensure receipt of >class materials, please complete and mail the attached pre-enrollment >form which must be received by January 4, 1999. A $95.00 >non-refundable payment must accompany the application. The fee for the >course includes handouts, lunch, and parking. > >Print, detach, and send the following. >======================================================================== >=== >Mail to: Dr. Roger D Bauer, College of Natural Sciences & Math SAS >Center, California State University Long Beach, 1250 Bellflower Blvd, >Long Beach, Ca 90840 > > > >Name: ____________________________________________________ > >Position: __________________________________________________ > >Institution: _________________________________________________ > >Mailing Address: > >__________________________________________________________ > >__________________________________________________________ > >Telephone: ______________________ Email: ____________________ > > > >Enclosed is my check in the amount of $95.00 payable to California >State University Long Beach Foundation. A 10% discount will be offered >to institutions sending five or more participants. Call Cheryl >Muilenburg at 562/985-8394 for additional information, parking >arrangements (parking lot 7 on upper campus, off 7th street), or to >register by phone. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:59:50 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Debbie Decker Subject: Re: safety training for teachers (was Methanol) In-Reply-To: <01BE28C8.13E68FC0@clarkew.ops.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:45 AM 12/16/98 -0600, you wrote: >Dear CHO group, > >As one who works with secondary science teachers in a public school setting, I truely understand the issues brought forward regarding chemical safety in the classroom. For the last five years we have been working with many of our new and seasoned teachers regarding laboratory safety and chemical storage. Often times with great resistence. The feelings from teachers is that they have used the chemicals for years, and have had no problems, so what is the big deal? On top of that, we're telling them that the MSDS contains information regarding risks that we need to consider for future purchases, not to mention how we store those chemicals. I still fight with the teacher who wants to store chemicals under their sinks or in their cabinets in alphabetical order. > >It would be wonderful to have the local universities, and or companies willing to work with our teachers on training workshops. I think if they hear it from those that they respect, instead of the "administration" they would be more apt to follow the guidelines of safety. Anyone in the area of Omaha, NE (or not) who would want to share some ideas in regards to safety, should contact me about future collaborations. In a previous life, I worked with an on-campus group to provide laboratory safety training for secondary school teachers. Mostly science types. I gave them an overview of the regulations, a bit of fire extinguisher training, haz waste requirements and then a practical where I had a lab set up with "hazards" in it. It was an all day thing, I gave them a ton of print resources, in addition to the State Science Safety Handbook. It was a lot of work for me, in addition to my regular duties, but I enjoyed it. FWIW, Deb. Debbie Decker EH&S UCDavis (530)754-7964 dmdecker@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:59:38 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: NACHO Web Page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-12-16 12:55:23 EST, you write: << Perhaps NACHO could host a web page with links, book lists (including ISBN's and where to find the books), and other information would be a good start. That would also allow members to provide a place for teachers, students, and other persons interested in safety to go for "one stop shopping." It won't solve all problems, but perhaps could provide some help. >> LSW is looking for help in the development of its website. Any volunteers out there? We want to include NACHO pages on the site. ... jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, President The Laboratory Safety Workshop 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 LabSafe@aol.com Safety in Science Education The Laboratory Safety Workshop is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, seminar schedule, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. Visit our growing web site at www:LABSAFETY.ORG ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:59:37 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Science Ed seminars on chemical handling and waste disposal-are ... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-12-16 12:20:47 EST, you write: << Are there any regular seminars or classes on chemical handling and/or waste disposal for K-12 science teachers? >> The Laboratory Safety Workshop has been providing them for 20 years. Our guidlines file also contains the seminar schedule for the year. ... Jim ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, President The Laboratory Safety Workshop 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 LabSafe@aol.com Safety in Science Education The Laboratory Safety Workshop is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, seminar schedule, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. Visit our growing web site at www:LABSAFETY.ORG ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:24:33 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: Environmental Management Guide For Small Laboratories Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >I have not yet seen discussion of this new booklet from the EPA. In >phone discussions with colleagues recently there has been grave concern >expressed about the way this document (EPA 233-B-98-001) almost seems to >cross over from assisting and into regulating... >Comments? Yes. Did you know NACHO is listed in section "4.0 Reliable Resources", subsection "4.4.2 Other"? "The National Association of Chemical Hygiene Officers (NACHO) list. Participants discuss all aspects of laboratory chemical hygiene. Contact Dr. Jim Kaufman at the Laboratory Safety Workshp (email: Labsafe@aol.com) for information on how to subscribe." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:02:08 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: ANSI Standards For Eye Protection Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is UV protection is specifically addressed (or defined) in the ANSI standard for eye protection? Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:36:59 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Naomi Kelly Subject: Re: A bit absurd - WAS repro toxins and high acute toxicity In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981214212524.0180b6d8@postoffice.purdue.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Please send me the URL. Thanks At 09:25 PM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >from HE >>I would think that you could compare your current, in-use chemical >>inventory to a recognized source like Patty's and/or Brethricks. I'm not >>aware of a single source of information which will tell you everything you >>want to know...it takes some leg-work, time and some good reference >materials. > >from HG >>Or...you can hire a good consultant....but that cost $$$$ > >from MH >>The term, "reproductive toxins" is purposely vague to not only include >>mutagens, teratogens and any other substances or processes that may damage >>genetic material or fetuses but to allow for inclusion of as yet undefined >>possible epigenetic phenomena. > > >Yes, yes, of course, and I know this.... "Purposely vague" is something I'm >ashamed of OSHA (but especially EPA) for being. > >And I just think it's a bit absurd that there appears to be an expectation >on the part of OSHA that someone will come up with something truly >meaningful with so little guidance. Is it all just based on some "try as >hard as you can even though we give crap for guidelines and things will be >better than they used to be" sort of ideal? (yes.) > >The "select carcinogens" part can be coped with because at least there are >distinct references for a person to grind away at keeping track of. But >for the rest, the reproductive toxins and the "substances of high acute >toxicity," are we supposed to constantly monitor every published MSDS, >every new issue of "Toxicology" every finding of every agency and >publication that purports have insight? Is there a list of such >authorities? Patty and Bretherick are great, although can you imagine >having the time to go through them line by line every new edition? > >And who among these uses that expression "high acute toxicity?" What is >HIGH? Gimme a number please. > >What do *you* use!? Do you use some finite list of chemicals and update it >with some regularity? Or do you simply punt like most academic >institutions and say "it's the responsibility of the researchers?" > >For what chemicals do you require designated areas?? I would like to >update our list AGAIN (it's on the web, if you're interested write me for >the URL) and I'd like to offer a rationale for why I included and excluded >particular things. > >'Scuse me for getting frustrated. I appreciate all of the input! > >Linda > > Naomi Kelly Environmental Health and Safety nkelly@clemson.edu (864) 656 - 7554 Fax: (864) 656 - 7630 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:49:59 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Dr. Linda A. Swihart" Subject: what is MOPP? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What is MOPP, as in "MOPP and other combined chemotherapy including alkylating agents" as an IARC class 1 carcinogen.... see http://193.51.164.11/monoeval/crthgr01.html Thanks, Linda ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:24:57 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jeff Wawrzeniak Subject: VOC's from decaying microbiological matter Comments: To: safety@list.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings and Happy Holidays all, I'm in search of information relating to VOC's being emitted from mold and fungus or other decaying microbiologicals. I recently read an article in 'Environmental Protection' that stated that mold/fungi give off metabolic gases that could include; benzene, methylene chloride, hexane, and acetone to name a few. I'm interested in information that may indicate if you have 'X' type mold/fungus then you may have 'Y' type VOC. Is there any known association between the two? If all other possible sources of VOC contamination or intrusion into a particular space are ruled out, it may be possible that the contributing factor is microbial contamination. Any input or information is greatly appreciated. Thanks. Jeff Wawrzeniak IH FAATC AC, NJ jeff_wawrzeniak@admin.tc.faa.gov fx: 609-485-6102 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:07:09 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "M. Drago" Subject: Acronym anxiety MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi guys, Merry Christmas! Question: What is VOC? Jeff was referring to this in reference to microbial pollution. Thanks as always. Marcia -- Marcia Kilday Drago Science Lab Manager Central Florida Community College 3001 SW College Road Ocala, FL 34474-4415 (352)854-CFCC, 4 + 1635 FAX: (352)237-0510 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:40:12 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nick Spare Subject: Re: Acronym anxiety MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VOC - Volatile Organic Compound. -----Original Message----- From: M. Drago To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 8:08 AM Subject: Acronym anxiety >Hi guys, Merry Christmas! > >Question: What is VOC? Jeff was referring to this in reference to >microbial pollution. >Thanks as always. >Marcia > > >-- >Marcia Kilday Drago >Science Lab Manager >Central Florida Community College >3001 SW College Road >Ocala, FL 34474-4415 >(352)854-CFCC, 4 + 1635 FAX: (352)237-0510 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:58:58 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: James Hermann Organization: Engineered Polymer Solutions (EPS), Inc. Subject: Laboratory Accident Database or List? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have a list or database of laboratory accidents? Jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:51:49 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: VOC's from decaying microbiological matter Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: > I'm in search of information relating to VOC's being emitted from >mold > and fungus or other decaying microbiologicals. I haven't used this site enough to know if you will find what you want, but you could try Health Canada, Office of Biosafety at the following address: http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hpb/lcdc/biosafty/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:25:41 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Debbie Decker Subject: Re: VOC's from decaying microbiological matter In-Reply-To: <0001FCA8.C22022@admin.tc.faa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:24 AM 12/21/98 -0500, you wrote: > Greetings and Happy Holidays all, > > I'm in search of information relating to VOC's being emitted from mold > and fungus or other decaying microbiologicals. > > I recently read an article in 'Environmental Protection' that stated > that mold/fungi give off metabolic gases that could include; benzene, > methylene chloride, hexane, and acetone to name a few. I recently attended a Univ of Tulsa workshop on sampling for indoor fungi - the presenter described it as "VOC soup." > I'm interested in information that may indicate if you have 'X' type > mold/fungus then you may have 'Y' type VOC. Is there any known > association between the two? Dr. Elliot Horner is currently attempting to develop methods that may be able to differentiate between microbials by the VOC's given off. Because the levels are very low and the mixture is extremely complex, method development is slow-going. And in some cases, the VOC's given off by a fungus may be different depending on the nutrient source. A very complex problem. There are easier ways to determine what type of mold you have - spore trap and culture or swab, tape mounts for microscopic identification, etc. > If all other possible sources of VOC contamination or intrusion into a > particular space are ruled out, it may be possible that the > contributing factor is microbial contamination. A wise building engineer told me once, If youse smell mold, you gots mold. A lot of fancy equipment isn't really necessary to detect whether or not you have microbial contamination - a good nose, a bright flashlight and a basic knowledge of how the building is heated and cooled is often enough. However, getting rid of the mold once you've found it is a much more complex problem. And ultimately getting rid of the smell (VOC) is very difficult. Some building occupants may not be sensitive to the mold but to the smell. You can draw some small comfort from the fact that the VOC's from microbial growth, while spectacularly stinky, are present at very low levels - many times non-detect with current sampling equipment. Hope this helps. Deb. Debbie M. Decker, Health and Safety Specialist Environmental Health and Safety University of California, Davis 1 Shields Ave. Davis, CA 95616 (530)754-7964 (530)752-1493 dmdecker@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:25:39 -0700 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: Re: what is MOPP? Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu,.internet writes: >What is MOPP, as in "MOPP and other combined chemotherapy including >alkylating agents" as an IARC class 1 carcinogen.... >see http://193.51.164.11/monoeval/crthgr01.html >Thanks, >Linda From the Merck Index, Misc Table 2, Cancer Chemotherapy Drug Regimens MOPP mechlorethamine + vincristine + procarbazine + prednisone There are about 6 dozen entries in this table, including BAPP, BOLD, CHAP-5, CHOP, C-MOPP, COPP, MOP, MVPP, ProMACE-MOPP . . . Acronym anxiety deluxe! Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:35:04 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Scott M. Davis" Subject: Re: VOC's from decaying microbiological matter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't know how helpful it would be, but the following company sent me literature on measuring microbial volatile organic compounds: Air Quality Sciences, Inc. 1337 Capital Circle Atlanta, Georgia 30067 770-933-0638 The information they sent me referred to the following citation: Wessen, B., G. Strom and K. O. Schoeps: MVOC profiles-A Tool for Indoor Air Quality Assessment. In "Indoor Air Quality-an Integrated Approach" (edited by L. Morawska). Amsterdam: Elsevier, 1995. pp. 67-70. I have always been of the "if you hear hoofbeats, expect horses...not zebras" school of thought when it comes to IAQ. So I have never pursued the microbial VOC sampling. But there it is. Scott Davis, CIH > Greetings and Happy Holidays all, > > I'm in search of information relating to VOC's being emitted from mold > and fungus or other decaying microbiologicals. > > I recently read an article in 'Environmental Protection' that stated > that mold/fungi give off metabolic gases that could include; benzene, > methylene chloride, hexane, and acetone to name a few. > > I'm interested in information that may indicate if you have 'X' type > mold/fungus then you may have 'Y' type VOC. Is there any known > association between the two? > > If all other possible sources of VOC contamination or intrusion into a > particular space are ruled out, it may be possible that the > contributing factor is microbial contamination. > > Any input or information is greatly appreciated. > > Thanks. > > Jeff Wawrzeniak > IH > FAATC > AC, NJ > jeff_wawrzeniak@admin.tc.faa.gov > fx: 609-485-6102 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:41:58 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Lab Safety Workshop has a collection of over 4,000 anecdotal accounts of accidents. The first 500 were published in Learning By Accident vol 1, March '97. ... jim kaufman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:42:40 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Jim Woodring Subject: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? NFPA 491M MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The National Fire Protection Association sells NFPA 491-97 Hazardous Chemical Reactions. See their web site at: http://www.nfpa.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:06:26 -0600 Reply-To: "swiki@bihs.net" Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Swiki A. Anderson" Organization: Swiki Anderson & Associates, Inc. Subject: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, allow me to share the accident data that we have collected with you. You can access it at http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm; click WEB Links and references to Laboratory Fire and Toxic Problems. I also invite you and others to review the information in the way of papers contained on this web page. It is a fact that the chemical industry in this country is not only necessary, but indispensable. However, we can not continue to tolerate exposure to toxic or carcinogenic materials in the workplace, especially in our chemical plants and college laboratories. Unfortunately, laboratories have come under a great deal of negative publicity after toxic levels of exposure have resulted in the illness, injury, or even death of laboratory workers. How did this happen? In almost all cases, the containment ventilation function that is integral to the supply and exhaust air flow systems of these laboratories was not working correctly; in fact, most were not designed or installed correctly. In years past, when a fume hood was needed, an industrial hygienist picked a hood from the Fisher Scientific Catalog and turned the installation over to the engineering department; a contractor installed the ductwork and connected the hood to an exhaust fan. If the fume hood fan's capacity was insufficient to produce the proper capture velocity in the hood face at the full sash opening, the safety department put a mark on the side of the hood to indicate the safe sash level height for correct hood face velocity. However, in practice, the marks on the hood were ignored and hood sashes were left in the full open position, regardless of what any little marks indicate. The bottom line concern is that the ventilation systems in most of our chemical plants laboratories weren't designed correctly. And, in those rare instances where the ventilation system was designed correctly, many have not been serviced properly, and additional exhaust devices have been added without increasing supply make-up; the net result is that the vast majority of chemical plant laboratory ventilation systems are not working correctly. Our nation's first laboratory airflow systems were developed in the atomic energy era of the 1940's. Many lives were lost in laboratories at that time because of exposure to toxic chemicals. And while there were tragedies, there were also significant safety, ventilation, and fume hood design and application lessons learned during this period. These findings are identified and discussed in a paper presented to the Campus Safety Health and Environmental Management Association, entitled "Fume Hoods and Laboratory Air Flow Systems: Lessons, Feature, and Improvements, from the "Old Saints" of the Atomic Energy Era Through Today". I invite you to learn about these problems and their solutions; you may access and extract this paper from our web site at http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm. The lessons of these earlier scientists may help you evaluate the potential benefits of improvements to your laboratory. Learn about the differences between containment ventilation and dilution ventilation. Why is one safe and the other not? Visit our website; it contains technical information to educate and enlighten you regarding what has been learned, much of it beginning in the 1940's atomic energy era, concerning the superiority of containment ventilation-based systems as opposed to dilution-based systems now most commonly employed. If you think that you may have problems in your lab, please call us and allow us to help you improve your system. We have developed laboratory air flow control systems that at a minimum can always improve ventilation system performance. We offer to make an initial site visit and ventilation system review at NO OBLIGATION to you. If we can answer questions for you, or help you as you make inquiries into this matter, please contact us through the e-mail address or the telephone number below. At Swiki Anderson and Associates, Inc., we have developed laboratory air flow control systems that, at a minimum, can always improve containment ventilation system performance in most laboratories. We design laboratories, and we have the ingenuity to fix and retrofit and improve them. On December 20th, Jim Morris, with The Houston Chronicle, published a major article, "Sickening Results", about laboratory ventilation problems. If you miss it, we have a link to it from our web site, http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm; click on WEB LINKS and references to Laboratory Fire and Toxic Problems. This web site focuses on havoc to human lives in the laboratory workplace and contains Morris' and articles by others related to laboratory safety incidents. The referenced publications and news article document laboratory ventilation and health and safety incidents and problems for those interested. We would like to make your laboratory a safer workplace environment, and we ask for the opportunity to explain how we can do this can be done cost-effectively. We not only know that ventilation problems can be eliminated with proper engineering and proper system installation, we can make it happen. Us the Checklist as a guide and if you suspect air flow and containment problems in your lab, it is your responsibility to protect yourself and others; go to your administration and request a thorough review of your existing ventilation and other system concerns. Your administration may offer excuses such as "..we don't have money for that," or "..the safety department says it's okay since it was within code when it was installed," or "I'm sorry but we are too busy to look into this". But be persistent and take a very proactive approach towards a solution; it may impact your health. Tell your administration that unsafe ventilation systems should be modified or changed to produce the proper and safe containment ventilation system responses needed. Present and document your concerns in writing and demand that corrective action be taken. Your health and well-being may be at stake. 10 Minute Checklist: Is Your Lab Properly Ventilated? a laboratory air flow system evaluation tool ? Odors present in the hallway and in the lab work areas? ? Corroded metal surfaces, such as metal cabinets, plumbing fixtures, electrical wall plates? ? Air velocity gets higher and noisier when the hood sash is closed? ? Wind tunnel effects, i.e., high velocity and volume of in-rushing air, when lab or building doors are opened? ? No metered-based hood exhaust flow indicators installed on the hoods with audible alarms? ? Room air temperature swings, indicating possible air conditioning problems and lack of control? ? Humidity swings, indicating possible lack of air conditioning control and proper function? ? Noticeable drafts acting on technicians working in front of a hood? ? Smoke tracers indicating eddy current in the entrance section of fume hoods? ? Noises associated with air movement in the room ? Room supply air outlets placed too close to the fume hoods? ? Fume hood doors left open at all time without automatic closure devices? ? Fume hood exhaust fans motors that can be switched "on" and "off" at the hood, especially when chemicals are stored in the fume hoods? ? Missing fume hood elements or fume hood sashes that drag and do not operate freely? ? Fume hoods with square corners and post instead of air foiled openings? ? Fume hoods that lack a safety shelf and air gap opening at the safety shelf? ? Outside air make up hoods? ? Insufficient makeup air supply into laboratory rooms? ? Additional hoods added in a room without increasing makeup air supply capacity? If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, there may be an airflow problem in your lab, putting someone's health at risk. At http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm, click on Simple means of evaluation for potential Dilution vs. Containment Ventilation Problems for additional information. -----Original Message----- From: James Hermann [SMTP:jhermann@VALSPAR.COM] Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 10:59 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Laboratory Accident Database or List? Does anyone have a list or database of laboratory accidents? Jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:26:16 -0600 Reply-To: "swiki@bihs.net" Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Swiki A. Anderson" Organization: Swiki Anderson & Associates, Inc. Subject: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, how can I get/exchange info with you re this. Morris' article mentioned you and we have posted a link to it at http:/www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm Click on WEB Links....Problems Later I hope to publish a reference to our web page (I may have already accidentally done this anyhow) and while it is biased toward use of our engineering services, there is some significant information available at the site, especially under the tech-notes. I have come to discover that since Weber's disclosure (see web site) and our attempts to provide forced conditioned air into laboratories, we have -- perhaps -- UN whittling shifted emphasis from containment ventilation to dilution ventilation. And if the poison is in the dose as some have said, we have, through perhaps a packed mentality, shifted emphasis from containment ventilation to dilution ventilation and have hurt some folk because of this shift. It seems to have all started around the close of the W.W.II atomic area (40s to mid 50s), at the beginning of the chemical era (mid 50s to early 70s). We, especially engineers, designed around dilution ventilation instead of containment ventilation mainly because we did not have the controls to maintain constant fume hood face velocity at all sash openings, with supply slaved to exhaust flow in lab room. In short we lost sight of the primary goals. See ".... lessons from the Old Saint.." at this web site. We now have these needed controls see: http://www.accuaire.com I welcome comments from all concerning the issues addressed in "tech notes" Swiki Anderson -----Original Message----- From: Labsafe@AOL.COM [SMTP:Labsafe@AOL.COM] Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 4:42 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? The Lab Safety Workshop has a collection of over 4,000 anecdotal accounts of accidents. The first 500 were published in Learning By Accident vol 1, March '97. ... jim kaufman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 17:19:05 +1300 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: Isopropyl inhalation Nigel I don't know if you had any replies to your query but this is the information from N. Irving Sax's, Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials Regards Tony ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL CAS: 67-63-0 DOT Number: UN 1219 M Formula: C3H8O M Weight: 60.11 Structure: (CH3)2CHOH Properties: Clear, colorless liquid; slight odor, slightly bitter taste. Melting point: -88.5 to -89.5o, boiling point: 82.5o, lower explosive limit: 2.5%, upper explosive limit: 12%, flash point: 53oF (closed cup), density: 0.7854 @ 20o/4o, refractive index: 1.377 @ 20o, vapor density: 2.07, Underwriters Laboratory Classification: 70. Freezing point: -89.5o; autoignition temperature: 852oF. Miscible with water, alcohol, ether, chloroform; insoluble in salt solns. Soluble in water. TOXICITY DATA with REFERENCE Skin-Rabbit, adult 500 mg Mild irritation effects NTIS** AD-A106-944 Eye effects-Rabbit, adult 16 mg AJOPAA 29,1363,46 Eye effects-Rabbit, adult 10 mg Moderate irritation effects TXAPA9 55,5 01,80 Cytogenetic Analysis System-Saccharomyces cerevisiae 200 mmol/tube HEREAY 33,457,47 Cytogenetic Analysis System-Rat-Inhalation 1030 mg/m3/16W-I GTPZAB 25(7),33,81 Oral-Rat TDLo:6480 mg/kg (male 26W pre):Reproductive effects GISAAA 43(1),8,78 Inhalation-Rat TCLo:10,000 ppm/7H (female 1-19D post):Teratogenic effects FCTOD7 26,247,88 Oral-Man TDLo:14,432 mg/kg:Central nervous system effects,Cardiovascular effects,Pulmonary system effects NEJMAG 277,699,67 Oral-Human TDLo:223 mg/kg:Central nervous system effects,Cardiovascular effects JLCMAK 12,326,27 Oral-Man LDLo:5272 mg/kg AJCPAI 38,144,62 Oral-Human LDLo:3570 mg/kg:Central nervous system effects,Pulmonary system effects,Gastrointestinal tract effects 34ZIAG -,339,69 Unreported-Man LDLo:2770 mg/kg 85DCAI 2,73,70 Oral-Rat LD50:5045 mg/kg GISAAA 43(1),8,78 Inhalation-Rat LCLo:16,000 ppm/4H JIDHAN 31,343,49 Intraperitoneal-Rat LD50:2735 mg/kg EVHPAZ 61,321,85 Intravenous-Rat LD50:1099 mg/kg EVHPAZ 61,321,85 Oral-Mouse LD50:3600 mg/kg GISAAA 43(1),8,78 Inhalation-Mouse LCLo:12,800 ppm/3H IAEC** 17JUN74 Intraperitoneal-Mouse LD50:4477 mg/kg EVHPAZ 61,321,85 Subcutaneous-Mouse LDLo:6000 mg/kg HBTXAC 1,172,56 Intravenous-Mouse LD50:1509 mg/kg EVHPAZ 61,321,85 Oral-Dog, adult LD50:4797 mg/kg JLCMAK 29,561,44 Intravenous-Dog, adult LDLo:5120 mg/kg JLCMAK 29,561,44 Intravenous-Cat, adult LDLo:1963 mg/kg HBTXAC 1,172,55 Oral-Rabbit, adult LD50:6410 mg/kg FAONAU 48A,114,70 Skin-Rabbit, adult LD50:12,800 mg/kg NPIRI* 1,100,74 Consensus Reports: IARC Cancer Review: Group 3 IMEMDT 7,229,87. The isopropyl alcohol strong acid manufacturing process is on the Community Right-To-Know List. EPA Genetic Toxicology Program. Reported in EPA TSCA Inventory. Standards and Procedures OSHA PEL:TWA 400 ppm; STEL 500 ppm ACGIH TLV:TWA 400 ppm; STEL 500 ppm DFG MAK:400 ppm (980 mg/m3) NIOSH REL:(Isopropyl Alcohol) TWA 400 ppm; CL 800 ppm/15M DOT Classification:3; Label: Flammable Liquid SAFETY PROFILE: Moderately toxic to humans by an unspecified route. Moderately toxic experimentally by intravenous and intraperitoneal routes. Mildly toxic by skin contact. Human systemic effects by ingestion or inhalation: flushing, pulse rate decrease, blood pressure lowering, anesthesia, narcosis, headache, dizziness, mental depression, hallucinations, distorted perceptions, dyspnea, respiratory depression, nausea or vomiting, coma. Experimental teratogenic and reproductive effects. Mutation data reported. An eye and skin irritant. Questionable carcinogen. The single lethal dose for a human adult is about 250 mL, although as little as 100 mL can be fatal. It can cause corneal burns and eye damage. Acts as a local respiratory irritant and in high concentration as a narcotic. It has good warning properties because it causes a mild irritation of the eyes, nose, and throat at a concentration level of 400 ppm. It may induce a mild narcosis, the effects of which are usually transient, and it is somewhat less toxic than the normal isomer, but twice as volatile. There is some evidence that humans can acquire a slight tolerance to this material. It is absorbed by the skin, but single or repeated applications on the skin of rats, rabbits, dogs, or human beings induced no untoward effects. It acts very much like ethanol in regard to absorption, metabolism, and elimination but with a stronger narcotic action. Chronic injuries have been detected in animals. Workers producing isopropanol show an excess of sinus and laryngeal cancers. This may be caused, completely or in part, by the by-product, isopropyl oil. Humans have ingested up to 20 mL diluted with water and noticed only a sensation of heat and slight lowering of the blood pressure. There are, however, reports of serious illness from as little as 10 mL taken internally. A common air contaminant. Flammable liquid. A very dangerous fire hazard when exposed to heat, flame, or oxidizers. Moderately explosive when exposed to heat or flame. Reacts with air to form dangerous peroxides. The presence of 2-butanone increases the reaction rate for peroxide formation. Hydrogen peroxide sharply reduces the autoignition temperature. Violent explosive reaction when heated with aluminum isopropoxide + crotonaldehyde + heat. Forms explosive mixtures with trinitromethane; hydrogen peroxide (similar in power and sensitivity to glyceryl nitrate). Reacts with barium perchlorate to form the highly explosive propyl perchlorate. Ignites on contact with dioxygenyl tetrafluoroborate; chromium trioxide; potassium tert-butoxide (after a delay). Reacts with oxygen to form dangerously unstable peroxides. Vigorous reaction with sodium dichromate + sulfuric acid; aluminum (after a delay period). Reacts violently with H2 + Pd; nitroform; oleum; COCl2; Al triisopropoxide; oxidants. Can react vigorously with oxidizing materials. To fight fire, use CO2, dry chemical, alcohol foam. When heated to decomposition it emits acrid smoke and fumes. See also ALCOHOLS. Analytical Methods: For occupational chemical analysis use NIOSH: Alcohols I, 1400. Class: Food Additive; Questionable Carcinogen; Reproductively Active; Standards or Recommendations ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:43:06 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Burns Subject: Fw: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This looks like a thinly disguised commercial, in addition to being full of sweeping generalities. This seems to me to be inappropriate on this discussion group. I don't wish to set myself up as group policeman- we have enough of that- but I'm not comfortable with it. anyone agree, disagree? Bob "Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 814-238-1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com -----Original Message----- From: Swiki A. Anderson To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 19:06 Subject: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? >Jim, allow me to share the accident data that we have collected with you. > You can access it at http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm; >click WEB Links and references to Laboratory Fire and Toxic Problems. I >also invite you and others to review the information in the way of papers >contained on this web page. > >It is a fact that the chemical industry in this country is not only >necessary, but indispensable. However, we can not continue to tolerate >exposure to toxic or carcinogenic materials in the workplace, especially in >our chemical plants and college laboratories. Unfortunately, laboratories >have come under a great deal of negative publicity after toxic levels of >exposure have resulted in the illness, injury, or even death of laboratory >workers. How did this happen? In almost all cases, the containment >ventilation function that is integral to the supply and exhaust air flow >systems of these laboratories was not working correctly; in fact, most were >not designed or installed correctly. > >In years past, when a fume hood was needed, an industrial hygienist picked >a hood from the Fisher Scientific Catalog and turned the installation over >to the engineering department; a contractor installed the ductwork and >connected the hood to an exhaust fan. If the fume hood fan's capacity was >insufficient to produce the proper capture velocity in the hood face at the >full sash opening, the safety department put a mark on the side of the hood >to indicate the safe sash level height for correct hood face velocity. > However, in practice, the marks on the hood were ignored and hood sashes >were left in the full open position, regardless of what any little marks >indicate. The bottom line concern is that the ventilation systems in most >of our chemical plants laboratories weren't designed correctly. And, in >those rare instances where the ventilation system was designed correctly, >many have not been serviced properly, and additional exhaust devices have >been added without increasing supply make-up; the net result is that the >vast majority of chemical plant laboratory ventilation systems are not >working correctly. > >Our nation's first laboratory airflow systems were developed in the atomic >energy era of the 1940's. Many lives were lost in laboratories at that time >because of exposure to toxic chemicals. And while there were tragedies, >there were also significant safety, ventilation, and fume hood design and >application lessons learned during this period. These findings are >identified and discussed in a paper presented to the Campus Safety Health >and Environmental Management Association, entitled "Fume Hoods and >Laboratory Air Flow Systems: Lessons, Feature, and Improvements, from the >"Old Saints" of the Atomic Energy Era Through Today". I invite you to >learn about these problems and their solutions; you may access and extract >this paper from our web site at >http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm. The lessons of these >earlier scientists may help you evaluate the potential benefits of >improvements to your laboratory. Learn about the differences between >containment ventilation and dilution ventilation. Why is one safe and the >other not? Visit our website; it contains technical information to educate >and enlighten you regarding what has been learned, much of it beginning in >the 1940's atomic energy era, concerning the superiority of containment >ventilation-based systems as opposed to dilution-based systems now most >commonly employed. > >If you think that you may have problems in your lab, please call us and >allow us to help you improve your system. We have developed laboratory >air flow control systems that at a minimum can always improve ventilation >system performance. We offer to make an initial site visit and ventilation >system review at NO OBLIGATION to you. If we can answer questions for you, >or help you as you make inquiries into this matter, please contact us >through the e-mail address or the telephone number below. At Swiki >Anderson and Associates, Inc., we have developed laboratory air flow >control systems that, at a minimum, can always improve containment >ventilation system performance in most laboratories. We design >laboratories, and we have the ingenuity to fix and retrofit and improve >them. > >On December 20th, Jim Morris, with The Houston Chronicle, published a major >article, "Sickening Results", about laboratory ventilation problems. If >you miss it, we have a link to it from our web site, >http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm; click on WEB LINKS >and references to Laboratory Fire and Toxic Problems. This web site focuses >on havoc to human lives in the laboratory workplace and contains Morris' >and articles by others related to laboratory safety incidents. The >referenced publications and news article document laboratory ventilation >and health and safety incidents and problems for those interested. > >We would like to make your laboratory a safer workplace environment, and we >ask for the opportunity to explain how we can do this can be done >cost-effectively. We not only know that ventilation problems can be >eliminated with proper engineering and proper system installation, we can >make it happen. > >Us the Checklist as a guide and if you suspect air flow and containment >problems in your lab, it is your responsibility to protect yourself and >others; go to your administration and request a thorough review of your >existing ventilation and other system concerns. Your administration may >offer excuses such as "..we don't have money for that," or "..the safety >department says it's okay since it was within code when it was installed," >or "I'm sorry but we are too busy to look into this". But be persistent and >take a very proactive approach towards a solution; it may impact your >health. Tell your administration that unsafe ventilation systems should >be modified or changed to produce the proper and safe containment >ventilation system responses needed. Present and document your concerns in >writing and demand that corrective action be taken. Your health and >well-being may be at stake. > > 10 Minute Checklist: Is Your Lab Properly Ventilated? > a laboratory air flow system evaluation tool > > ? Odors present in the hallway and in the lab work areas? > ? Corroded metal surfaces, such as metal cabinets, plumbing fixtures, >electrical wall plates? > ? Air velocity gets higher and noisier when the hood sash is closed? > ? Wind tunnel effects, i.e., high velocity and volume of in-rushing air, >when lab or building doors are opened? > ? No metered-based hood exhaust flow indicators installed on the hoods >with audible alarms? > ? Room air temperature swings, indicating possible air conditioning >problems and lack of control? > ? Humidity swings, indicating possible lack of air conditioning control >and proper function? > ? Noticeable drafts acting on technicians working in front of a hood? > ? Smoke tracers indicating eddy current in the entrance section of fume >hoods? > ? Noises associated with air movement in the room > ? Room supply air outlets placed too close to the fume hoods? > ? Fume hood doors left open at all time without automatic closure devices? > ? Fume hood exhaust fans motors that can be switched "on" and "off" at the >hood, especially when chemicals are stored in the fume hoods? > ? Missing fume hood elements or fume hood sashes that drag and do not >operate freely? > ? Fume hoods with square corners and post instead of air foiled openings? > ? Fume hoods that lack a safety shelf and air gap opening at the safety >shelf? > ? Outside air make up hoods? > ? Insufficient makeup air supply into laboratory rooms? > ? Additional hoods added in a room without increasing makeup air supply >capacity? > > >If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, there may be an airflow >problem in your lab, putting someone's health at risk. > > At http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm, click on Simple >means of evaluation for potential Dilution vs. > >Containment Ventilation Problems for additional information. >-----Original Message----- >From: James Hermann [SMTP:jhermann@VALSPAR.COM] >Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 10:59 AM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject: Laboratory Accident Database or List? > >Does anyone have a list or database of laboratory accidents? > >Jim > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:26:59 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Julie O'Brien Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >This looks like a thinly disguised commercial, in addition to being full of >sweeping generalities. >This seems to me to be inappropriate on this discussion group. I don't wish >to set myself up as group policeman- we have enough of that- but I'm not >comfortable with it. anyone agree, disagree? I agree with you completely, Bob, but it's already been posted. Just don't believe everything you read. Julie O'Brien Chemist PCR, Inc. PO Box 1466 Gainesville, FL 32602 352-376-8246 ext. 232 Fax 352-373-7503 afn35210@afn.org Education/Exhibits Committee Volunteer EXPO The Children's Museum of Gainesville PO Box 5951 Gainesville, FL 32627 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:21:51 -0600 Reply-To: "swiki@bihs.net" Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Swiki A. Anderson" Organization: Swiki Anderson & Associates, Inc. Subject: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Burns, I am sorry if I have offended you with the information I have provided. My suggestion to you is to click on the delete button and do away with the information. If, however, you seek historical information that is meter based, please feel free to learn from the technical articles and other information posted our. Some of these articles were reproduced and posted from as long ago as 1940. more will be added as time permits for the reader who seek to become informed. For example, If you read Weber's paper (ca. 1944), you will see that the early AEC scientist defined the problems associated with laboratory containment ventilation: they had to, some of them were dying! When we tried to air condition laboratories about this time, we started the era of dilution ventilation and the reason for this was simple: we did not have the controls necessary to control "push-pull" laboratory air systems. Unfortunately, since that time it seems that all of us engineers have copied our last designs -- a form of "packed mentality" -- compounding the dilution ventilation mistakes forward without going back and trying to determine the fundamentals and quantify the multivariant negative contributing factors and their respective influences on ventilation system containment, i.e., the ability of an installed system to contain fugitive material in a fume hood rather than having it escape the hood and having the laboratory becoming the diluted cavity. I am trying to share with you and the rest of this audience what I have learn over the past 20 years of my career, with results stemming from numerous full scale mock-up and on-site metering based laboratory air flow system studies, with all studies funded by large corporations such as Exxon, Arco, AT&T-Bell, USDA, etc. Commercial? Perhaps, but this is how I earn my living and someone/something has to fund the time and effort associated with attempts to communicate, especially when what you have learned and are attempting to publish is somewhat different than conventional wisdom and certainly not the party line (herd mentality) that the "paper mill" laboratory designers pump out for lab air flow and control systems. And yes, I too until a few years ago, was a part of the herd design group and it was only after I started do extensive library research concerning what others had learned before me, that I begun to understand and put the pieces together concerning the when, what, why and how of laboratory air flow systems. If I have offended you, please hit the delete button and go on with life. Swiki A. Anderson, Ph.D., P.E President Swiki Anderson and Associates, Inc. Bryan, Tx (409) 779-6068, ext 11 -----Original Message----- From: Bob Burns [SMTP:rburns@BIGFOOT.COM] Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 1998 6:43 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Fw: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? This looks like a thinly disguised commercial, in addition to being full of sweeping generalities. This seems to me to be inappropriate on this discussion group. I don't wish to set myself up as group policeman- we have enough of that- but I'm not comfortable with it. anyone agree, disagree? Bob "Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 814-238-1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com -----Original Message----- From: Swiki A. Anderson To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 19:06 Subject: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? >Jim, allow me to share the accident data that we have collected with you. > You can access it at http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm; >click WEB Links and references to Laboratory Fire and Toxic Problems. I >also invite you and others to review the information in the way of papers >contained on this web page. > >It is a fact that the chemical industry in this country is not only >necessary, but indispensable. However, we can not continue to tolerate >exposure to toxic or carcinogenic materials in the workplace, especially in >our chemical plants and college laboratories. Unfortunately, laboratories >have come under a great deal of negative publicity after toxic levels of >exposure have resulted in the illness, injury, or even death of laboratory >workers. How did this happen? In almost all cases, the containment >ventilation function that is integral to the supply and exhaust air flow >systems of these laboratories was not working correctly; in fact, most were >not designed or installed correctly. > >In years past, when a fume hood was needed, an industrial hygienist picked >a hood from the Fisher Scientific Catalog and turned the installation over >to the engineering department; a contractor installed the ductwork and >connected the hood to an exhaust fan. If the fume hood fan's capacity was >insufficient to produce the proper capture velocity in the hood face at the >full sash opening, the safety department put a mark on the side of the hood >to indicate the safe sash level height for correct hood face velocity. > However, in practice, the marks on the hood were ignored and hood sashes >were left in the full open position, regardless of what any little marks >indicate. The bottom line concern is that the ventilation systems in most >of our chemical plants laboratories weren't designed correctly. And, in >those rare instances where the ventilation system was designed correctly, >many have not been serviced properly, and additional exhaust devices have >been added without increasing supply make-up; the net result is that the >vast majority of chemical plant laboratory ventilation systems are not >working correctly. > >Our nation's first laboratory airflow systems were developed in the atomic >energy era of the 1940's. Many lives were lost in laboratories at that time >because of exposure to toxic chemicals. And while there were tragedies, >there were also significant safety, ventilation, and fume hood design and >application lessons learned during this period. These findings are >identified and discussed in a paper presented to the Campus Safety Health >and Environmental Management Association, entitled "Fume Hoods and >Laboratory Air Flow Systems: Lessons, Feature, and Improvements, from the >"Old Saints" of the Atomic Energy Era Through Today". I invite you to >learn about these problems and their solutions; you may access and extract >this paper from our web site at >http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm. The lessons of these >earlier scientists may help you evaluate the potential benefits of >improvements to your laboratory. Learn about the differences between >containment ventilation and dilution ventilation. Why is one safe and the >other not? Visit our website; it contains technical information to educate >and enlighten you regarding what has been learned, much of it beginning in >the 1940's atomic energy era, concerning the superiority of containment >ventilation-based systems as opposed to dilution-based systems now most >commonly employed. > >If you think that you may have problems in your lab, please call us and >allow us to help you improve your system. We have developed laboratory >air flow control systems that at a minimum can always improve ventilation >system performance. We offer to make an initial site visit and ventilation >system review at NO OBLIGATION to you. If we can answer questions for you, >or help you as you make inquiries into this matter, please contact us >through the e-mail address or the telephone number below. At Swiki >Anderson and Associates, Inc., we have developed laboratory air flow >control systems that, at a minimum, can always improve containment >ventilation system performance in most laboratories. We design >laboratories, and we have the ingenuity to fix and retrofit and improve >them. > >On December 20th, Jim Morris, with The Houston Chronicle, published a major >article, "Sickening Results", about laboratory ventilation problems. If >you miss it, we have a link to it from our web site, >http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm; click on WEB LINKS >and references to Laboratory Fire and Toxic Problems. This web site focuses >on havoc to human lives in the laboratory workplace and contains Morris' >and articles by others related to laboratory safety incidents. The >referenced publications and news article document laboratory ventilation >and health and safety incidents and problems for those interested. > >We would like to make your laboratory a safer workplace environment, and we >ask for the opportunity to explain how we can do this can be done >cost-effectively. We not only know that ventilation problems can be >eliminated with proper engineering and proper system installation, we can >make it happen. > >Us the Checklist as a guide and if you suspect air flow and containment >problems in your lab, it is your responsibility to protect yourself and >others; go to your administration and request a thorough review of your >existing ventilation and other system concerns. Your administration may >offer excuses such as "..we don't have money for that," or "..the safety >department says it's okay since it was within code when it was installed," >or "I'm sorry but we are too busy to look into this". But be persistent and >take a very proactive approach towards a solution; it may impact your >health. Tell your administration that unsafe ventilation systems should >be modified or changed to produce the proper and safe containment >ventilation system responses needed. Present and document your concerns in >writing and demand that corrective action be taken. Your health and >well-being may be at stake. > > 10 Minute Checklist: Is Your Lab Properly Ventilated? > a laboratory air flow system evaluation tool > > ? Odors present in the hallway and in the lab work areas? > ? Corroded metal surfaces, such as metal cabinets, plumbing fixtures, >electrical wall plates? > ? Air velocity gets higher and noisier when the hood sash is closed? > ? Wind tunnel effects, i.e., high velocity and volume of in-rushing air, >when lab or building doors are opened? > ? No metered-based hood exhaust flow indicators installed on the hoods >with audible alarms? > ? Room air temperature swings, indicating possible air conditioning >problems and lack of control? > ? Humidity swings, indicating possible lack of air conditioning control >and proper function? > ? Noticeable drafts acting on technicians working in front of a hood? > ? Smoke tracers indicating eddy current in the entrance section of fume >hoods? > ? Noises associated with air movement in the room > ? Room supply air outlets placed too close to the fume hoods? > ? Fume hood doors left open at all time without automatic closure devices? > ? Fume hood exhaust fans motors that can be switched "on" and "off" at the >hood, especially when chemicals are stored in the fume hoods? > ? Missing fume hood elements or fume hood sashes that drag and do not >operate freely? > ? Fume hoods with square corners and post instead of air foiled openings? > ? Fume hoods that lack a safety shelf and air gap opening at the safety >shelf? > ? Outside air make up hoods? > ? Insufficient makeup air supply into laboratory rooms? > ? Additional hoods added in a room without increasing makeup air supply >capacity? > > >If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, there may be an airflow >problem in your lab, putting someone's health at risk. > > At http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm, click on Simple >means of evaluation for potential Dilution vs. > >Containment Ventilation Problems for additional information. >-----Original Message----- >From: James Hermann [SMTP:jhermann@VALSPAR.COM] >Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 10:59 AM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject: Laboratory Accident Database or List? > >Does anyone have a list or database of laboratory accidents? > >Jim > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:54:46 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Ray Campbell Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? In-Reply-To: <007901be2da8$e63a7920$0100007f@BBURNS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I agree. This list was designed for us as a group to assist each other. It is obvious that others have seized the opportunity to blatantly trespass. They are taking up time and space. They have also, on occasion, used our email addresses etc for private solicitations. I am tired of it. Ray Campbell REA CCHO 310-257-1080 At 07:43 AM 12/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >This looks like a thinly disguised commercial, in addition to being full of >sweeping generalities. > >This seems to me to be inappropriate on this discussion group. I don't wish >to set myself up as group policeman- we have enough of that- but I'm not >comfortable with it. anyone agree, disagree? > >Bob > >"Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" > >Robert L. Burns >Group Leader, R&D >RUETGERS Organics Corporation >201 Struble Road >State College, PA 16801 >phone 814-231-9214 >fax 814-238-1567 >email rburns@bigfoot.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: Swiki A. Anderson >To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu >Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 19:06 >Subject: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? > > >>Jim, allow me to share the accident data that we have collected with you. >> You can access it at http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm; >>click WEB Links and references to Laboratory Fire and Toxic Problems. I >>also invite you and others to review the information in the way of papers >>contained on this web page. >> >>It is a fact that the chemical industry in this country is not only >>necessary, but indispensable. However, we can not continue to tolerate >>exposure to toxic or carcinogenic materials in the workplace, especially in >>our chemical plants and college laboratories. Unfortunately, laboratories >>have come under a great deal of negative publicity after toxic levels of >>exposure have resulted in the illness, injury, or even death of laboratory >>workers. How did this happen? In almost all cases, the containment >>ventilation function that is integral to the supply and exhaust air flow >>systems of these laboratories was not working correctly; in fact, most were >>not designed or installed correctly. >> >>In years past, when a fume hood was needed, an industrial hygienist picked >>a hood from the Fisher Scientific Catalog and turned the installation over >>to the engineering department; a contractor installed the ductwork and >>connected the hood to an exhaust fan. If the fume hood fan's capacity was >>insufficient to produce the proper capture velocity in the hood face at the >>full sash opening, the safety department put a mark on the side of the hood >>to indicate the safe sash level height for correct hood face velocity. >> However, in practice, the marks on the hood were ignored and hood sashes >>were left in the full open position, regardless of what any little marks >>indicate. The bottom line concern is that the ventilation systems in most >>of our chemical plants laboratories weren't designed correctly. And, in >>those rare instances where the ventilation system was designed correctly, >>many have not been serviced properly, and additional exhaust devices have >>been added without increasing supply make-up; the net result is that the >>vast majority of chemical plant laboratory ventilation systems are not >>working correctly. >> >>Our nation's first laboratory airflow systems were developed in the atomic >>energy era of the 1940's. Many lives were lost in laboratories at that time >>because of exposure to toxic chemicals. And while there were tragedies, >>there were also significant safety, ventilation, and fume hood design and >>application lessons learned during this period. These findings are >>identified and discussed in a paper presented to the Campus Safety Health >>and Environmental Management Association, entitled "Fume Hoods and >>Laboratory Air Flow Systems: Lessons, Feature, and Improvements, from the >>"Old Saints" of the Atomic Energy Era Through Today". I invite you to >>learn about these problems and their solutions; you may access and extract >>this paper from our web site at >>http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm. The lessons of these >>earlier scientists may help you evaluate the potential benefits of >>improvements to your laboratory. Learn about the differences between >>containment ventilation and dilution ventilation. Why is one safe and the >>other not? Visit our website; it contains technical information to educate >>and enlighten you regarding what has been learned, much of it beginning in >>the 1940's atomic energy era, concerning the superiority of containment >>ventilation-based systems as opposed to dilution-based systems now most >>commonly employed. >> >>If you think that you may have problems in your lab, please call us and >>allow us to help you improve your system. We have developed laboratory >>air flow control systems that at a minimum can always improve ventilation >>system performance. We offer to make an initial site visit and ventilation >>system review at NO OBLIGATION to you. If we can answer questions for you, >>or help you as you make inquiries into this matter, please contact us >>through the e-mail address or the telephone number below. At Swiki >>Anderson and Associates, Inc., we have developed laboratory air flow >>control systems that, at a minimum, can always improve containment >>ventilation system performance in most laboratories. We design >>laboratories, and we have the ingenuity to fix and retrofit and improve >>them. >> >>On December 20th, Jim Morris, with The Houston Chronicle, published a major >>article, "Sickening Results", about laboratory ventilation problems. If >>you miss it, we have a link to it from our web site, >>http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm; click on WEB LINKS >>and references to Laboratory Fire and Toxic Problems. This web site focuses >>on havoc to human lives in the laboratory workplace and contains Morris' >>and articles by others related to laboratory safety incidents. The >>referenced publications and news article document laboratory ventilation >>and health and safety incidents and problems for those interested. >> >>We would like to make your laboratory a safer workplace environment, and we >>ask for the opportunity to explain how we can do this can be done >>cost-effectively. We not only know that ventilation problems can be >>eliminated with proper engineering and proper system installation, we can >>make it happen. >> >>Us the Checklist as a guide and if you suspect air flow and containment >>problems in your lab, it is your responsibility to protect yourself and >>others; go to your administration and request a thorough review of your >>existing ventilation and other system concerns. Your administration may >>offer excuses such as "..we don't have money for that," or "..the safety >>department says it's okay since it was within code when it was installed," >>or "I'm sorry but we are too busy to look into this". But be persistent and >>take a very proactive approach towards a solution; it may impact your >>health. Tell your administration that unsafe ventilation systems should >>be modified or changed to produce the proper and safe containment >>ventilation system responses needed. Present and document your concerns in >>writing and demand that corrective action be taken. Your health and >>well-being may be at stake. >> >> 10 Minute Checklist: Is Your Lab Properly Ventilated? >> a laboratory air flow system evaluation tool >> >> ? Odors present in the hallway and in the lab work areas? >> ? Corroded metal surfaces, such as metal cabinets, plumbing >fixtures, >>electrical wall plates? >> ? Air velocity gets higher and noisier when the hood sash is >closed? >> ? Wind tunnel effects, i.e., high velocity and volume of >in-rushing air, >>when lab or building doors are opened? >> ? No metered-based hood exhaust flow indicators installed on >the hoods >>with audible alarms? >> ? Room air temperature swings, indicating possible air >conditioning >>problems and lack of control? >> ? Humidity swings, indicating possible lack of air >conditioning control >>and proper function? >> ? Noticeable drafts acting on technicians working in front of >a hood? >> ? Smoke tracers indicating eddy current in the entrance >section of fume >>hoods? >> ? Noises associated with air movement in the room >> ? Room supply air outlets placed too close to the fume hoods? >> ? Fume hood doors left open at all time without automatic >closure devices? >> ? Fume hood exhaust fans motors that can be switched "on" and >"off" at the >>hood, especially when chemicals are stored in the fume hoods? >> ? Missing fume hood elements or fume hood sashes that drag >and do not >>operate freely? >> ? Fume hoods with square corners and post instead of air >foiled openings? >> ? Fume hoods that lack a safety shelf and air gap opening at >the safety >>shelf? >> ? Outside air make up hoods? >> ? Insufficient makeup air supply into laboratory rooms? >> ? Additional hoods added in a room without increasing makeup >air supply >>capacity? >> >> >>If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, there may be an airflow >>problem in your lab, putting someone's health at risk. >> >> At http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm, click on >Simple >>means of evaluation for potential Dilution vs. >> >>Containment Ventilation Problems for additional information. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: James Hermann [SMTP:jhermann@VALSPAR.COM] >>Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 10:59 AM >>To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >>Subject: Laboratory Accident Database or List? >> >>Does anyone have a list or database of laboratory accidents? >> >>Jim >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:48:24 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? Comments: To: swiki@bihs.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am not offended, only feel that your message is out of place in this discussion group. perhaps a brief note with a link to a web site might be appropriate. This is a discussion group for and by CHOs- we share information. I have no problem with you earning a living, either, and wish you luck doing so. I think you're offering a valuable service, but I don't think it belongs on this discussion group. "Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" Robert L. Burns Group Leader, R&D RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 814-238-1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com -----Original Message----- From: Swiki A. Anderson To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Tuesday, December 22, 1998 10:20 Subject: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? >Mr. Burns, > I am sorry if I have offended you with the information I have provided. > My suggestion to you is to click on the delete button and do away with the >information. If, however, you seek historical information that is meter >based, please feel free to learn from the technical articles and other >information posted our. Some of these articles were reproduced and posted >from as long ago as 1940. more will be added as time permits for the >reader who seek to become informed. For example, If you read Weber's >paper (ca. 1944), you will see that the early AEC scientist defined the >problems associated with laboratory containment ventilation: they had to, >some of them were dying! When we tried to air condition laboratories about >this time, we started the era of dilution ventilation and the reason for >this was simple: we did not have the controls necessary to control >"push-pull" laboratory air systems. Unfortunately, since that time it >seems that all of us engineers have copied our last designs -- a form of >"packed mentality" -- compounding the dilution ventilation mistakes forward >without going back and trying to determine the fundamentals and quantify >the multivariant negative contributing factors and their respective >influences on ventilation system containment, i.e., the ability of an >installed system to contain fugitive material in a fume hood rather than >having it escape the hood and having the laboratory becoming the diluted >cavity. > I am trying to share with you and the rest of this audience what I have >learn over the past 20 years of my career, with results stemming from >numerous full scale mock-up and on-site metering based laboratory air flow >system studies, with all studies funded by large corporations such as >Exxon, Arco, AT&T-Bell, USDA, etc. Commercial? Perhaps, but this is how I >earn my living and someone/something has to fund the time and effort >associated with attempts to communicate, especially when what you have >learned and are attempting to publish is somewhat different than >conventional wisdom and certainly not the party line (herd mentality) that >the "paper mill" laboratory designers pump out for lab air flow and control >systems. And yes, I too until a few years ago, was a part of the herd >design group and it was only after I started do extensive library research >concerning what others had learned before me, that I begun to understand >and put the pieces together concerning the when, what, why and how of >laboratory air flow systems. > If I have offended you, please hit the delete button and go on with life. > >Swiki A. Anderson, Ph.D., P.E >President >Swiki Anderson and Associates, Inc. >Bryan, Tx >(409) 779-6068, ext 11 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bob Burns [SMTP:rburns@BIGFOOT.COM] >Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 1998 6:43 AM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject: Fw: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? > >This looks like a thinly disguised commercial, in addition to being full of >sweeping generalities. > >This seems to me to be inappropriate on this discussion group. I don't >wish >to set myself up as group policeman- we have enough of that- but I'm not >comfortable with it. anyone agree, disagree? > >Bob > >"Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" > >Robert L. Burns >Group Leader, R&D >RUETGERS Organics Corporation >201 Struble Road >State College, PA 16801 >phone 814-231-9214 >fax 814-238-1567 >email rburns@bigfoot.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: Swiki A. Anderson >To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu >Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 19:06 >Subject: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? > > >>Jim, allow me to share the accident data that we have collected with you. >> You can access it at >http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm; >>click WEB Links and references to Laboratory Fire and Toxic Problems. I >>also invite you and others to review the information in the way of papers >>contained on this web page. >> >>It is a fact that the chemical industry in this country is not only >>necessary, but indispensable. However, we can not continue to tolerate >>exposure to toxic or carcinogenic materials in the workplace, especially >in >>our chemical plants and college laboratories. Unfortunately, laboratories >>have come under a great deal of negative publicity after toxic levels of >>exposure have resulted in the illness, injury, or even death of laboratory >>workers. How did this happen? In almost all cases, the containment >>ventilation function that is integral to the supply and exhaust air flow >>systems of these laboratories was not working correctly; in fact, most >were >>not designed or installed correctly. >> >>In years past, when a fume hood was needed, an industrial hygienist picked >>a hood from the Fisher Scientific Catalog and turned the installation over >>to the engineering department; a contractor installed the ductwork and >>connected the hood to an exhaust fan. If the fume hood fan's capacity was >>insufficient to produce the proper capture velocity in the hood face at >the >>full sash opening, the safety department put a mark on the side of the >hood >>to indicate the safe sash level height for correct hood face velocity. >> However, in practice, the marks on the hood were ignored and hood sashes >>were left in the full open position, regardless of what any little marks >>indicate. The bottom line concern is that the ventilation systems in most >>of our chemical plants laboratories weren't designed correctly. And, in >>those rare instances where the ventilation system was designed correctly, >>many have not been serviced properly, and additional exhaust devices have >>been added without increasing supply make-up; the net result is that the >>vast majority of chemical plant laboratory ventilation systems are not >>working correctly. >> >>Our nation's first laboratory airflow systems were developed in the atomic >>energy era of the 1940's. Many lives were lost in laboratories at that >time >>because of exposure to toxic chemicals. And while there were tragedies, >>there were also significant safety, ventilation, and fume hood design and >>application lessons learned during this period. These findings are >>identified and discussed in a paper presented to the Campus Safety Health >>and Environmental Management Association, entitled "Fume Hoods and >>Laboratory Air Flow Systems: Lessons, Feature, and Improvements, from the >>"Old Saints" of the Atomic Energy Era Through Today". I invite you to >>learn about these problems and their solutions; you may access and extract >>this paper from our web site at >>http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm. The lessons of >these >>earlier scientists may help you evaluate the potential benefits of >>improvements to your laboratory. Learn about the differences between >>containment ventilation and dilution ventilation. Why is one safe and the >>other not? Visit our website; it contains technical information to >educate >>and enlighten you regarding what has been learned, much of it beginning in >>the 1940's atomic energy era, concerning the superiority of containment >>ventilation-based systems as opposed to dilution-based systems now most >>commonly employed. >> >>If you think that you may have problems in your lab, please call us and >>allow us to help you improve your system. We have developed laboratory >>air flow control systems that at a minimum can always improve ventilation >>system performance. We offer to make an initial site visit and >ventilation >>system review at NO OBLIGATION to you. If we can answer questions for >you, >>or help you as you make inquiries into this matter, please contact us >>through the e-mail address or the telephone number below. At Swiki >>Anderson and Associates, Inc., we have developed laboratory air flow >>control systems that, at a minimum, can always improve containment >>ventilation system performance in most laboratories. We design >>laboratories, and we have the ingenuity to fix and retrofit and improve >>them. >> >>On December 20th, Jim Morris, with The Houston Chronicle, published a >major >>article, "Sickening Results", about laboratory ventilation problems. If >>you miss it, we have a link to it from our web site, >>http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm; click on WEB LINKS >>and references to Laboratory Fire and Toxic Problems. This web site >focuses >>on havoc to human lives in the laboratory workplace and contains Morris' >>and articles by others related to laboratory safety incidents. The >>referenced publications and news article document laboratory ventilation >>and health and safety incidents and problems for those interested. >> >>We would like to make your laboratory a safer workplace environment, and >we >>ask for the opportunity to explain how we can do this can be done >>cost-effectively. We not only know that ventilation problems can be >>eliminated with proper engineering and proper system installation, we can >>make it happen. >> >>Us the Checklist as a guide and if you suspect air flow and containment >>problems in your lab, it is your responsibility to protect yourself and >>others; go to your administration and request a thorough review of your >>existing ventilation and other system concerns. Your administration may >>offer excuses such as "..we don't have money for that," or "..the safety >>department says it's okay since it was within code when it was installed," >>or "I'm sorry but we are too busy to look into this". But be persistent >and >>take a very proactive approach towards a solution; it may impact your >>health. Tell your administration that unsafe ventilation systems should >>be modified or changed to produce the proper and safe containment >>ventilation system responses needed. Present and document your concerns >in >>writing and demand that corrective action be taken. Your health and >>well-being may be at stake. >> >> 10 Minute Checklist: Is Your Lab Properly Ventilated? >> a laboratory air flow system evaluation tool >> >> ? Odors present in the hallway and in the lab work areas? >> ? Corroded metal surfaces, such as metal cabinets, plumbing >fixtures, >>electrical wall plates? >> ? Air velocity gets higher and noisier when the hood sash is >closed? >> ? Wind tunnel effects, i.e., high velocity and volume of >in-rushing air, >>when lab or building doors are opened? >> ? No metered-based hood exhaust flow indicators installed on >the hoods >>with audible alarms? >> ? Room air temperature swings, indicating possible air >conditioning >>problems and lack of control? >> ? Humidity swings, indicating possible lack of air >conditioning control >>and proper function? >> ? Noticeable drafts acting on technicians working in front >of >a hood? >> ? Smoke tracers indicating eddy current in the entrance >section of fume >>hoods? >> ? Noises associated with air movement in the room >> ? Room supply air outlets placed too close to the fume >hoods? >> ? Fume hood doors left open at all time without automatic >closure devices? >> ? Fume hood exhaust fans motors that can be switched "on" >and >"off" at the >>hood, especially when chemicals are stored in the fume hoods? >> ? Missing fume hood elements or fume hood sashes that drag >and do not >>operate freely? >> ? Fume hoods with square corners and post instead of air >foiled openings? >> ? Fume hoods that lack a safety shelf and air gap opening at >the safety >>shelf? >> ? Outside air make up hoods? >> ? Insufficient makeup air supply into laboratory rooms? >> ? Additional hoods added in a room without increasing makeup >air supply >>capacity? >> >> >>If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, there may be an airflow >>problem in your lab, putting someone's health at risk. >> >> At http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm, click on >Simple >>means of evaluation for potential Dilution vs. >> >>Containment Ventilation Problems for additional information. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: James Hermann [SMTP:jhermann@VALSPAR.COM] >>Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 10:59 AM >>To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >>Subject: Laboratory Accident Database or List? >> >>Does anyone have a list or database of laboratory accidents? >> >>Jim >> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:22:02 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Norbert Norman Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree that Swiki's response was fairly blatantly commercial. He didn't have to go on so much about his company, especially in his first posting, just give the URL and let us look, if interested. I did look, and found it to be a useful collection of references and examples of work done by his company. I also think he is grandstanding a bit too much to push his company and an agenda for containment over dilution ventilation, but I think, a lot of what he is talking about does make sense. I thought the checklist for lab ventilation problems was very good. Some of his thinking might challenge some conventional ways of doing things, but that's the beauty of this type of communication tool (internet & list serves). It allows free discussion without undue censorship, anyone is free to quickly ignore (delete) all or any part of any posting, and can offer their own opinion without threat of physical harm (verbal ostracism is another matter). Isn't that what a free society is all about? I am not offended, and disagree that discussion from vendors should be discouraged from the this list, unless, of course, the posting is only an advertisement. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Burns To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Tuesday, December 22, 1998 6:39 AM Subject: Fw: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? >This looks like a thinly disguised commercial, in addition to being full of >sweeping generalities. > >This seems to me to be inappropriate on this discussion group. I don't wish >to set myself up as group policeman- we have enough of that- but I'm not >comfortable with it. anyone agree, disagree? > >Bob > >"Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" > >Robert L. Burns >Group Leader, R&D >RUETGERS Organics Corporation >201 Struble Road >State College, PA 16801 >phone 814-231-9214 >fax 814-238-1567 >email rburns@bigfoot.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:42:56 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Accident Database or List and Vendor Information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In einer eMail vom 22.12.1998 16:46:14, schreiben Sie: >This list was designed for us as a group to assist each other. Hi NACHO Members, When I started this discussion list almost 12 months ago, one of the expressly stated objectives was to provide a forum where vendor members could make colleagues aware of the products and services they had to offer. Unlike other discussion lists that are (to my way of thinking) rather uptight about this issue, I wanted us to have access to information (right here) that might potentially help us solve our problems. That information (I feel) needs to include products and services. Those of us who have had first hand experience with a particular product or service can share our experience with it and others can use that information to help judge its merits. One obvious problem is where to draw the line on how much text and how often a particular vendor should inject his or her product/service. The membership provides a good barometer for gauging the line. It sounds like from the two comments so far that we are getting close in this case. Fine. That helps the sender and others to help learn. And, after all, learning is what were all trying to do. Learn and help each other in a supportive way. I hope we can continue to encourage sharing information about products and services here while at the same time keeping it and everything else in a healthy balance. Seasons Greetings from Germany .... Jim Kaufman ***************************************************** James A. Kaufman, President The Laboratory Safety Workshop 192 Worcester Road, Natick, MA 01760 508-647-1900 Fax: 508-647-0062 LabSafe@aol.com Safety in Science Education The Laboratory Safety Workshop is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, seminar schedule, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. Visit our growing web site at www:LABSAFETY.ORG ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:00:23 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Mary Ann Solstad Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? In-Reply-To: <007901be2da8$e63a7920$0100007f@BBURNS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Not thinly disguised at all. A BRIEF ref. to the website would have been more than enough. I for one have been favorably impressed by Phoenix controls, and their lab mockup per client layout. I do not have any affiliation with them, nor have I purchased their product--as I am a consultant, and am always keeping my eye open for ideas that might be useful for a future client in a retrofit. At 07:43 AM 12/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >This looks like a thinly disguised commercial, in addition to being full of >sweeping generalities. > >This seems to me to be inappropriate on this discussion group. I don't wish >to set myself up as group policeman- we have enough of that- but I'm not >comfortable with it. anyone agree, disagree? > >Bob > >"Everything is easy for the person who does not have to do it!" > >Robert L. Burns >Group Leader, R&D >RUETGERS Organics Corporation >201 Struble Road >State College, PA 16801 >phone 814-231-9214 >fax 814-238-1567 >email rburns@bigfoot.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: Swiki A. Anderson >To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu >Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 19:06 >Subject: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? > > >>Jim, allow me to share the accident data that we have collected with you. >> You can access it at http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm; >>click WEB Links and references to Laboratory Fire and Toxic Problems. I >>also invite you and others to review the information in the way of papers >>contained on this web page. >> >>It is a fact that the chemical industry in this country is not only >>necessary, but indispensable. However, we can not continue to tolerate >>exposure to toxic or carcinogenic materials in the workplace, especially in >>our chemical plants and college laboratories. Unfortunately, laboratories >>have come under a great deal of negative publicity after toxic levels of >>exposure have resulted in the illness, injury, or even death of laboratory >>workers. How did this happen? In almost all cases, the containment >>ventilation function that is integral to the supply and exhaust air flow >>systems of these laboratories was not working correctly; in fact, most were >>not designed or installed correctly. >> >>In years past, when a fume hood was needed, an industrial hygienist picked >>a hood from the Fisher Scientific Catalog and turned the installation over >>to the engineering department; a contractor installed the ductwork and >>connected the hood to an exhaust fan. If the fume hood fan's capacity was >>insufficient to produce the proper capture velocity in the hood face at the >>full sash opening, the safety department put a mark on the side of the hood >>to indicate the safe sash level height for correct hood face velocity. >> However, in practice, the marks on the hood were ignored and hood sashes >>were left in the full open position, regardless of what any little marks >>indicate. The bottom line concern is that the ventilation systems in most >>of our chemical plants laboratories weren't designed correctly. And, in >>those rare instances where the ventilation system was designed correctly, >>many have not been serviced properly, and additional exhaust devices have >>been added without increasing supply make-up; the net result is that the >>vast majority of chemical plant laboratory ventilation systems are not >>working correctly. >> >>Our nation's first laboratory airflow systems were developed in the atomic >>energy era of the 1940's. Many lives were lost in laboratories at that time >>because of exposure to toxic chemicals. And while there were tragedies, >>there were also significant safety, ventilation, and fume hood design and >>application lessons learned during this period. These findings are >>identified and discussed in a paper presented to the Campus Safety Health >>and Environmental Management Association, entitled "Fume Hoods and >>Laboratory Air Flow Systems: Lessons, Feature, and Improvements, from the >>"Old Saints" of the Atomic Energy Era Through Today". I invite you to >>learn about these problems and their solutions; you may access and extract >>this paper from our web site at >>http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm. The lessons of these >>earlier scientists may help you evaluate the potential benefits of >>improvements to your laboratory. Learn about the differences between >>containment ventilation and dilution ventilation. Why is one safe and the >>other not? Visit our website; it contains technical information to educate >>and enlighten you regarding what has been learned, much of it beginning in >>the 1940's atomic energy era, concerning the superiority of containment >>ventilation-based systems as opposed to dilution-based systems now most >>commonly employed. >> >>If you think that you may have problems in your lab, please call us and >>allow us to help you improve your system. We have developed laboratory >>air flow control systems that at a minimum can always improve ventilation >>system performance. We offer to make an initial site visit and ventilation >>system review at NO OBLIGATION to you. If we can answer questions for you, >>or help you as you make inquiries into this matter, please contact us >>through the e-mail address or the telephone number below. At Swiki >>Anderson and Associates, Inc., we have developed laboratory air flow >>control systems that, at a minimum, can always improve containment >>ventilation system performance in most laboratories. We design >>laboratories, and we have the ingenuity to fix and retrofit and improve >>them. >> >>On December 20th, Jim Morris, with The Houston Chronicle, published a major >>article, "Sickening Results", about laboratory ventilation problems. If >>you miss it, we have a link to it from our web site, >>http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm; click on WEB LINKS >>and references to Laboratory Fire and Toxic Problems. This web site focuses >>on havoc to human lives in the laboratory workplace and contains Morris' >>and articles by others related to laboratory safety incidents. The >>referenced publications and news article document laboratory ventilation >>and health and safety incidents and problems for those interested. >> >>We would like to make your laboratory a safer workplace environment, and we >>ask for the opportunity to explain how we can do this can be done >>cost-effectively. We not only know that ventilation problems can be >>eliminated with proper engineering and proper system installation, we can >>make it happen. >> >>Us the Checklist as a guide and if you suspect air flow and containment >>problems in your lab, it is your responsibility to protect yourself and >>others; go to your administration and request a thorough review of your >>existing ventilation and other system concerns. Your administration may >>offer excuses such as "..we don't have money for that," or "..the safety >>department says it's okay since it was within code when it was installed," >>or "I'm sorry but we are too busy to look into this". But be persistent and >>take a very proactive approach towards a solution; it may impact your >>health. Tell your administration that unsafe ventilation systems should >>be modified or changed to produce the proper and safe containment >>ventilation system responses needed. Present and document your concerns in >>writing and demand that corrective action be taken. Your health and >>well-being may be at stake. >> >> 10 Minute Checklist: Is Your Lab Properly Ventilated? >> a laboratory air flow system evaluation tool >> >> ? Odors present in the hallway and in the lab work areas? >> ? Corroded metal surfaces, such as metal cabinets, plumbing >fixtures, >>electrical wall plates? >> ? Air velocity gets higher and noisier when the hood sash is >closed? >> ? Wind tunnel effects, i.e., high velocity and volume of >in-rushing air, >>when lab or building doors are opened? >> ? No metered-based hood exhaust flow indicators installed on >the hoods >>with audible alarms? >> ? Room air temperature swings, indicating possible air >conditioning >>problems and lack of control? >> ? Humidity swings, indicating possible lack of air >conditioning control >>and proper function? >> ? Noticeable drafts acting on technicians working in front of >a hood? >> ? Smoke tracers indicating eddy current in the entrance >section of fume >>hoods? >> ? Noises associated with air movement in the room >> ? Room supply air outlets placed too close to the fume hoods? >> ? Fume hood doors left open at all time without automatic >closure devices? >> ? Fume hood exhaust fans motors that can be switched "on" and >"off" at the >>hood, especially when chemicals are stored in the fume hoods? >> ? Missing fume hood elements or fume hood sashes that drag >and do not >>operate freely? >> ? Fume hoods with square corners and post instead of air >foiled openings? >> ? Fume hoods that lack a safety shelf and air gap opening at >the safety >>shelf? >> ? Outside air make up hoods? >> ? Insufficient makeup air supply into laboratory rooms? >> ? Additional hoods added in a room without increasing makeup >air supply >>capacity? >> >> >>If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, there may be an airflow >>problem in your lab, putting someone's health at risk. >> >> At http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notes.htm, click on >Simple >>means of evaluation for potential Dilution vs. >> >>Containment Ventilation Problems for additional information. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: James Hermann [SMTP:jhermann@VALSPAR.COM] >>Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 10:59 AM >>To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >>Subject: Laboratory Accident Database or List? >> >>Does anyone have a list or database of laboratory accidents? >> >>Jim >> >> > Mary Ann Solstad, CIH 4 A's of Safety SOLSTAD Health & Safety Evaluations Attitude 16 Pequot Rd, Marblehead, MA 01945 Awareness 781-631-4748 tel, 781-631-1832 FAX Automatic Application Authority DivCHAS Chair, ACS msolstad@mediaone.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:33:33 -0500 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Ron Angus Subject: Re: LABSAFETY-L Digest - 21 Dec 1998 to 22 Dec 1998 In-Reply-To: <19981223005058.181b1d36.in@mail.ps.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Fw: Re: Laboratory Accident Database or List? > >This looks like a thinly disguised commercial, in addition to being full of >sweeping generalities. > >This seems to me to be inappropriate on this discussion group. I don't wish >to set myself up as group policeman- we have enough of that- but I'm not >comfortable with it. anyone agree, disagree? Speaking of thinly disguised commercials, I think we ought to get that Kaufman guy off the list too. He seems to get a commercial in after every message P-) COME ON, FOLKS get your head out of the sand (e-mail convention for "get your head - oh well, never mind!). Jim Kaufman does good work because he cares and shares. Swiki Anderson does the same. I'm not afraid to listen and learn from anyone - especially if they know more than me. If I don't like what they say, my delete button works real good. And remember, many of the subscriber to this list are not full time professional safety people or PhD's, PE's, CIH,s or other ABC's - many are hard working people who need the help that Jim and Swiki and others can give them. By the way, some of you could benefit by learning some discussion list courtesy - when you respond, delete all of the trailer attachments except the specific comment that you are responding to. This morning's digest had four short messages - which took up more than fifty pages of screen. No one needs to read the same files over and over and over again. Merry Christmas / Happy Hanukah / Joyous Yule Ron Angus, Assistant Director Public Safety Division The University of Georgia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:39:16 -0800 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Nadine Grady Subject: Salary Range Info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BE2E9B.2983197E" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE2E9B.2983197E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Fellow listmembers: Our Human Resources staff is having a compensation study done to see if our salary ranges are competitive. (So far, it looks like we're running a little below average for many positions.) They're having trouble finding salary data for positions comparable to mine -- the group of 29 peer institutions surveyed apparently didn't include at least 3 positions like mine, so no data was reported. Therefore, I come to all of you asking if you can help fill in the blank. I DON'T want to know anyone's personal salary! What I'm looking for are salary ranges for Chemical Hygiene Officer (or Environmental Health & Safety Specialist, etc.) positions at private schools comparable to ours -- with an enrollment of 1500-2500 students, and an annual budget of $14.7-30.1 million. If you can supply any information, I'd appreciate it! (And it might help you, too... after all, we might be in the survey group when your school does a salary study.) Best wishes to all of you for a very happy holiday season! Nadine B. Grady, MS, CIH Chemical Hygiene Officer, Whitworth College 300 W. Hawthorne Rd., Spokane, WA 99251-3903 ngrady@whitworth.edu *********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:54:13 +0200 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Charles Hellyar Subject: Re: Salary Range Info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BE2E52.4B057F40" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2E52.4B057F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Nadine, Sometime ago I downloaded a file which now appears to have come from ISHN. I am not sure if I am treading on copyright but have included the file for your info. We are at about R6,65 to the $ so the salaries look really good. Best regards, Charles Hellyar Safety Information Systems. Safety & Health Consulting & Training. Southern Africa. Tel: +23 11 616 1687 -----Original Message----- From: Nadine Grady [SMTP:ngrady@WHITWORTH.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 7:39 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Salary Range Info Importance: High ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 17:07:09 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Salary Range Info Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit We did an informal salary survey at on of our CHO Training Courses last year. Of the 40 participants from Government, Industry, and Academia, they spent an average of 25% of their time on CHO type stuff and were paid $10K-$15K for the work. ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:23:17 -0600 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Russ Phifer Subject: Re: Formaldehyde substitute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone give me an idea as to the current market for non-formaldehyde biological/histological fixatives and preservatives? I discovered recently that my parent company holds a license (and the formula) to produce a non-formaldehyde biological fixative; apparently the company that issued the license went out of business and the rights have been quietly laying in wait for someone to pick them up. The formula includes glyoxal, which I know is an effective preservative. If I thought the market was sufficient I might consider taking on the production and distribution. Any thoughts? Russ Phifer WCC Industries, Inc. WCC Environmental Services 610-696-9220 610-344-7519 fax envasset@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:08:42 EST Reply-To: "Karcz-ENV, Timothy" Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: "Karcz-ENV, Timothy" Subject: Re: Formaldehyde substitute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Russ, Two companies I know of that make formalin-free fixatives are Shandon Lipshaw (product is Glyo-Fixx) and Anatech (Prefer). Both products contain glyoxal. We had the companies in as vendors in a health care pollution prevention conference we put on in October. (This does not constitute an endorsement.) I send this out over the listserv in the interest of promoting toxics use reduction. I would also be interested in hearing about anyone's experience with formalin-free fixatives in the lab. Hope this helps. Tim Karcz Massachusetts Office of Technical Assistance for Toxics Use Reduction ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:29:44 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Dry Chemical Extinguishers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi NACHO Members, Can some one help me recall the health hazard associated with some dry chemical fire extinguishers? Was it the phosphates? ... jim kaufman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:24:05 EST Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: stefan Subject: Re: Dry Chemical Extinguishers In-Reply-To: <570de7f3.368a7f28@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:29:44 EST said: > >Can some one help me recall the health hazard associated with some dry >chemical fire extinguishers? Was it the phosphates? ... jim kaufman *** They typically are charged with a monoammonium phosphate cmpd, which is *** a nuisance dust/irritant. *** Stefan Wawzyniecki, CIH *** University of Connecticut ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2098 23:15:30 +1300 Reply-To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List Sender: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: Dry Chemical Extinguishers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Dry Powder extinguishers can be a wide range of materials from Sodium Bicarbonate through a range of Phosphates and on into some specialised mixtures for metal fires. Stearates are often used as anti clogging agents. The simple answer is get an MSDS from the suppliers. I have them in the office but it's holiday time in this part of the world an I won't be there for a couple of weeks. My recollection of providing this information to people who have inhaled the powder after use on a fire is that the risks are largely form irritation due to either the alkaline or acidic nature of the hydrolysis products in the mucous material. Happy New Year to one and all Tony -----Original Message----- From: Labsafe@AOL.COM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: 31 December 1998 09:05 Subject: Dry Chemical Extinguishers >Hi NACHO Members, > >Can some one help me recall the health hazard associated with some dry >chemical fire extinguishers? Was it the phosphates? ... jim kaufman >